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Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Modern Tactics

#1: Weapons to lethal? Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:35 am
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I took a scenario, removed all my troops except for a BMP3. I was up against about 15 Army infantry sections. My BMP killed 29 men in two shots. These were infantry inside and outside. If I kept my distance I probably could of used that one BMP to kill everyone. Out of curiosity, I ran my BMP right into town 20m away from the nearest enemy team. It took about one minute for my BMP to be killed.

Do "modern weapons" really make Close Combat fun? These vehicles can engage at very high ranges and easily knock out infantry squads. Considering the majority of the maps have wide open flat terrain on them, I tend to think vehicle weapons are overpowered for Close Combat.

Support is the same story. In the original CCM, some games were decided on support alone. Just drop a few arty barrages and most infantry die, and all vehicle are either damaged or destroyed. Yeah sure thats probably the reality in the real world, but kind of borring to have everyone die without a fight.

#2: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:16 am
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I think I've said this before...there's not much close combat in modern warfare.
If you want to play a game with some close up and personal modern warfare action...play CoD4 Wink

#3: yes Author: ANZAC_Tack, Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:21 am
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i agree, the modern combat is deadly.

i asked MANY times in the last few months, why men die so fuckin fast, but a lot is in open terrain, and modern weapons are just so bad ass.

the example given was, the best WWII units would last about 3 minutes in CCMT.

even compared to vietnam mod CCIII i was amazed at the speed of infantry death. viet mod was carnage, viet rockets, allied centurians 105mm,40mm grenades poppin like crackers, m60's,RPG's it was carnage.

one weapon perplexed me, the 82mm morter, same weapon for like 90 years,same charge weight, similar blast radious,yet in MT it blows em down like flies.

my favourite weapon for inf work was the chain guns on bradleys,though the 120mm on both sides tended to end teams FAST.

welcome to the 21st mooxe.

for comparison, all should try RSR, god u die fast!!!! after WWII its like bloody carnage, 99% of players here would be shocked, like ME!!!

#4: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:27 am
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I'll just wait for the WW2 mods for CCMT.
Single battles only I know...but could be lots of fun.

#5: shit yeah! Author: ANZAC_Tack, Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:50 am
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seen the beta stuff nomada is pumping out? and somebody said if u pick all large teams, inf only with 10 players, 1500 bodies! thats a fucken lot of graves to dig! OMG body bags by the airplane load!

the bmp3 confused me at first, 100mm and 25mm and rockets, its a bad ass.

the naval barrage in GJS is probably more lethal then the morter/arty in CCMT,but its more consentrated, as CCMT throws it in a wide circle, 5 times i;d say at least. hint is, no close support,u'll get casualties.

BHQ now hosting CCMT i saw yesterday, just mooxe in the room though then.... :zzz

#6: Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:04 am
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Na, I just used a .50 team at 450 meters and killed each burst enemy flat on the ground...
Morts just "phufff" and killed 4 men in shell hole...
Morts just fire some rnds and take out APC..

Sry, "fun" is not my issue, I cant realy agree with this

Stalk

#7: agreed again. Author: ANZAC_Tack, Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:59 am
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yes zapping infantry prone is not fun, but we are talking about a 500 grain .5 inch lead slug that goes through 1/2 inch steel like butter, with ranges of kilometers. being prone just makes u a smaller target, not invisible.it should penetrate 3/5 ppl easily,taking nice chunks as it goes.

the morters i have issue with, but i think there are AP rounds for light veicles, and top down cn penetrate 1" steel+.

FUN? i found it a massecure compared to CC or any series,apart from maybe RSR. it was close.

need tweaking for 'fun' yes, im sure it will be coming in ANY mod.

#8: Re: agreed again. Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:10 am
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ANZAC_Tack wrote:

yes zapping infantry prone is not fun, but we are talking about a 500 grain .5 inch lead slug that goes through 1/2 inch steel like butter, with ranges of kilometers. being prone just makes u a smaller target, not invisible.it should penetrate 3/5 ppl easily,taking nice chunks as it goes.

the morters i have issue with, but i think there are AP rounds for light veicles, and top down cn penetrate 1" steel+.

FUN? i found it a massecure compared to CC or any series,apart from maybe RSR. it was close.

need tweaking for 'fun' yes, im sure it will be coming in ANY mod.

Not really Tack

You have to hit to kill, doesnt matter how grate penetration it has..
The amount of small ammo needed to kill a man is no riddle. It oght not to be anyway. There are just not fire a burst and hit, and kill. Sry, doent work that way...

Or try Iraq, since 2002 USA have used a half a billion rounds (500 000 000)rounds. Of em about 20 to 30 % has been used in combat situation, rest in training.
So they used betwen 100 000 000 to 150 000 000 rounds to kill how many Iraqis?

((this year alone USA will make 1.8 billion 1 800 000 000 5.56 & 7.62 rnds))

And about the morts kill APC, avarage rnd fire to hit a APC in real life? Thats harder to hit then penetrate IF the rond hits. And thats a BIG IF..

Try the statistics for WW2, and Vietnam, or Korea, or Beirut or whatever...

Again sry for not agree whit the latest CC, I dont whant to spoil the "fun", I just whant a product I think is "fun".

Over and Out

Stalk

#9: Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:00 pm
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Wouldn't it mean that average US soldier would run out of ammo before he would hit anything?

EDIT.

I just saw a film from a Afghanistan - it looks like they dodn't even try to hit anything in combat.
Is it normal?

Last edited by Therion on Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

#10: hay Author: ANZAC_Tack, Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:02 pm
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I agree, the weapons make CCMT not 'fun' for CC grognads, of course i agree.

but are we after fun all the time? as long as its realistic,and both sides can inflict as they should, isnt that the point? a 'simulator' need to 'simulate' real weapons.

ammo, i had to laugh at ammo used in iraq, how many would use for suppression? of combat ammo, my guess 99%, aimed shots at combatants, what 1%, hits from aimed shots...less again. training comes into this also.
agreed, not every shot kills, but a five ho,shes a bitch. i bet her hit rate is lower still, as she is primarily used for suppression.

like i said, 'fun' can be tweaked from this simulator based game.

'fun' is coming to a mod near u.

#11: Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:15 pm
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To me, the total carnage sounds more "fun" than "realistic".

ANZAC_Tack wrote:

ammo, i had to laugh at ammo used in iraq, how many would use for suppression? of combat ammo, my guess 99%, aimed shots at combatants, what 1%, hits from aimed shots...less again. training comes into this also.
agreed, not every shot kills, but a five ho,shes a bitch. i bet her hit rate is lower still, as she is primarily used for suppression.

Exactly.

#12: Re: hay Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:10 pm
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ANZAC_Tack wrote:

I agree, the weapons make CCMT not 'fun' for CC grognads, of course i agree.

but are we after fun all the time? as long as its realistic,and both sides can inflict as they should, isnt that the point? a 'simulator' need to 'simulate' real weapons..

ammo, i had to laugh at ammo used in iraq, how many would use for suppression? of combat ammo, my guess 99%, aimed shots at combatants, what 1%, hits from aimed shots...less again. training comes into this also.

Realistic? ????

So the burst shot in MT is only ones that is aimed and possible hit then??? What super elite veteran sodiers are MT representing then?

And the rest ammo thats fired that make up the bulk of rnds fired as "pointed" or suppression is not fired or representted at all in MT??
Or Silent? Whats realistic with that?

I dont get it, for most mod in CC5 simulates realistic ammo consumtion and suppression.

Stalk

#13: Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:38 pm
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Quote:

So the burst shot in MT is only ones that is aimed and possible hit then??? What super elite veteran sodiers are MT representing then?

Nah Stalk, they r just rookie T100 machines...
...hmm no, even Terminators and Robocop missed Smile

.

So they cheat us for sure that's not Close Combat any more - that's Warhammer 40K clone on outdated engine and with bad graphics/sounds Razz

#14: Re: hay Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:59 pm
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AT_Stalky wrote:

And the rest ammo thats fired that make up the bulk of rnds fired as "pointed" or suppression is not fired or representted at all in MT??
Or Silent? Whats realistic with that?

I suspect that suppression shots are fired when soldiers are "firing at area" and pointed when "firing".

Also, engagements in CCMT take place at pretty close range.

As for massacring troops with MGS...
The enemy team lied flat on the ground...
But were they in cover?

#15: Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:00 pm
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Dima wrote:

Quote:

So the burst shot in MT is only ones that is aimed and possible hit then??? What super elite veteran sodiers are MT representing then?

Nah Stalk, they r just rookie T100 machines...
...hmm no, even Terminators and Robocop missed Smile

.

So they cheat us for sure that's not Close Combat any more - that's Warhammer 40K clone on outdated engine and with bad graphics/sounds Razz

Hehe

#16: Author: CSO_Linebacker,

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:30 pm
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As far as the mg effectiveness, I guess it is a factor of a lot of things. I was in a shootout with schreck where we each had a team in a building, and after nearly all my ammo was expended, his team was still firing and I only had 2 'injured' (yellow head) soldiers.

I will say that I think this version does a much better job simulating the lethality of explosions. There is a lot of shrapnel and debris that can cause serious injury when a vehicle explodes, or a mortar round goes off etc. Unlike other versions of CC, you troops feel the effects of that. Being near an explosion can be very deadly in CCMT. In an article describing the newest vehicle headed to the front lines, the army said that approximately 80% of casualties and battle wounds were caused be shrapnel and explosive debris.

#17: Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:01 am
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Quote:

As far as the mg effectiveness, I guess it is a factor of a lot of things.

in reality soldiers under fire begin to dig in, thus even tarmack road would have fox holes in 10-15mins. MG is suppression weapon not really the weapon tto hit.

Quote:

I will say that I think this version does a much better job simulating the lethality of explosions.

hmmm

Quote:

There is a lot of shrapnel and debris that can cause serious injury when a vehicle explodes

that's why pretty all modern soldiers wear flak jacket at least as part of his combat equipment. So lil splinters don't make him any unless they hit non-protected place but it would mean WIA not KIA.

Quote:

or a mortar round goes off etc.

only when u at high stance.
WHen u prone mortars will have bad time to kill u as mortar splinters go upwards not donwards unles u have jumping shell.

Quote:

Unlike other versions of CC, you troops feel the effects of that.

i believe they feel effect of mortar/arty in CC5 quite realistic.

Quote:

Being near an explosion can be very deadly in CCMT.

it sux. how can full cevlar soldier got killed by splinters?

Quote:

In an article describing the newest vehicle headed to the front lines, the army said that approximately 80% of casualties and battle wounds were caused be shrapnel and explosive debris.

of coz, as they r affected to attack of AED. They don't have much firefites...

Still for yer consideration, LMG can't hit targets beyond 200-250m, assault rifles can't hit targets at ranges beyond 100-150m. MGs(7,62)can theoretically engage targets at 400-600m but how could MGunner c if he hits or no at such distance?

and let's take M16, it's accurate but with single shot, with burst i'd put my money on AK74. Anyway soldier with M16 should not be able to hit enemy at >100m. At least it should be v rare case.

#18: Author: CSO_Linebacker,

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:37 pm
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Splinters?

I wouldn't describe, pieces of metal and debris flying at a around 1500 fps as splinters.

As far as the kevlar vest...it's only on their torso...lot's of exposed places on the soldiers body still. Shrapnel through leg that hits the femoral artery, or through the arm where the brachial artery is hit, and a soldier could bleed out in minutes. Even if one of those arteries is not severed, the potential bone, muscle and soft tissue damage is horrific. That's why WWII vets tend to say that they were more afraid of artillery than anything...they couldn't fight back, and there was no way to predict which direction shrapnel might come from.

Then of course, death by explosive concussion. Overpressure caused by an explosion attacks any air-filled organ in your body...like ears, lungs, bowels...as well as the brain. Normal air pressure is about 15 psi. At the point of detonation, 1 block of C4 (approximately 8 pounds), the pressure is around 30,000,000 psi. At 50 feet away, the pressure is still more than 500,000 psi...way more than enough to kill you without leaving a mark. 200 psi is enough to cause traumatic internal injuries.

And then there is the fire and heat...

#19: Author: Therion,

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:34 pm
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Dima wrote:

Quote:

As far as the mg effectiveness, I guess it is a factor of a lot of things.

in reality soldiers under fire begin to dig in, thus even tarmack road would have fox holes in 10-15mins.

In CCMT they can do that too.
The problem is that if there's a light green line between MG and soldier and soldier is visible on screen, it means that the machinegunner sees the soldier and and therefore can hit him.
Especially, that it's an immobile target.

Dima wrote:

MG is suppression weapon not really the weapon tto hit.

Dima wrote:

Still for yer consideration, LMG can't hit targets beyond 200-250m, assault rifles can't hit targets at ranges beyond 100-150m. MGs(7,62)can theoretically engage targets at 400-600m but how could MGunner c if he hits or no at such distance?

and let's take M16, it's accurate but with single shot, with burst i'd put my money on AK74. Anyway soldier with M16 should not be able to hit enemy at >100m. At least it should be v rare case.

On what source are you basing it?

#20: not really............ Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:54 pm
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CSO_Linebacker wrote:

Then of course, death by explosive concussion. Overpressure caused by an explosion attacks any air-filled organ in your body...like ears, lungs, bowels...as well as the brain. Normal air pressure is about 15 psi. At the point of detonation, 1 block of C4 (approximately 8 pounds), the pressure is around 30,000,000 psi. At 50 feet away, the pressure is still more than 500,000 psi...way more than enough to kill you without leaving a mark. 200 psi is enough to cause traumatic internal injuries.
And then there is the fire and heat...

Hmmm??
And I who thought:

An 8cm mort weight 3,5 Kg that’s 8 pounds or so?
And a 12 cm mort some 16 kg +- that’s 35 pounds or so with 3.5 kg HE filling thats 8 ponds??

Peeks in pressure:
Pressure, a 100 pound (thin skin) air bomb produce 17 psi at 30 feet… That enough for pressure to blow you ear drums, if you in a trench or behind a wall you will not brake your drums.
Pressure, a 100 pound (thin skin) air bomb produce 4 psi at 60 feet… That not enough you be fine from pressure.
Pressure, a 500 pound (thin skin) air bomb produce 80 psi at 30 feet… That enough to make about half of the people have injuries to serious injuries from pressure.
Pressure, a 500 pound (thin skin) air bomb produce 6 psi at 60 feet… That’s not enough for any injuries from the pessure.
Pressure, a 4000 pound (thin skin) air bomb produce 1000 psi at 30 feet… That enough for kill more or less everyone there even in a trench.
In all the splinter produced is more likely to damage then pressure…

Stalky

#21: Author: CSO_Linebacker,

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:36 am
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Interesting info...where was that from? I got my figures from last weeks AP feature on Explosive concussion injuries in Iraq. If your numbers are correct, I think the AP fact checkers should be fired. Of course, I understand that the type of explosive matters. TNT, is more powerful than conventional explosives, and C4 has about 33% more explosive power than TNT,etc. Confining the explosive prior to detonation will greatly increase the explosive pressure because the force is confined and focus to a smaller area.

I did check, and my 1500 mps shrapnel velocity was way too low. "Typical detonation velocities from solid explosives can range between 5000mps to 8000mps." So shrapnel would likely be moving much faster than 1500mps near the blast

#22: Author: CSO_Linebacker,

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:40 am
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I don't know if the AP people who put together that feature were all smoking crack, or if the explosives involved really make that substantial amount of difference (I'm sure they do, but to what extent I have no clue).

I was doing some more looking into this, and found an article where tests were done on a WWII era 105mm artillery shell with approximately 25 pounds of explosives. At 30 feet from the detonation point the pressure was 125 psi and the detonation velocity was approximately 3000 mps.

#23: Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:32 am
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Hmm

An King Tiger gun 88mm L71, that fire a AP rnd at point blank, will at the point of impact, (in those 88mm diameter aria) produce that type of pressure you talk of, (500 000+ psi)… ?
That penetrates more then 200 mm of armour, but just in a 88 mm diameter.

Nuclear, 13 kt?? (=13 000 000 kg TNT) at 300 meters from the WW2 Hiroshima nuclear bomb there was +-19 psi…
A modern 1 Megaton (=1 000 000 000 kg TNT) Surface Blast at 1.7 miles will give 12 pounds per square inch..

That’s some pressure…

I bet C4 is effectve, but...

Thread is drifting a bit, so, lets stay on track, I think the weps are to leathal in CCMT.

Stalk

PS: Drugs and HE makes an leathal mix.

#24: Author: Nomada_Firefox,

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:55 pm
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I think that the CCMT weapons are not too important because on one week probably I will have one WWII mod and it will have the same weapons from CC5.

#25: Author: rouge5,

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:31 pm
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CSO_Linebacker wrote:

I don't know if the AP people who put together that feature were all smoking crack, or if the explosives involved really make that substantial amount of difference (I'm sure they do, but to what extent I have no clue).

I was doing some more looking into this, and found an article where tests were done on a WWII era 105mm artillery shell with approximately 25 pounds of explosives. At 30 feet from the detonation point the pressure was 125 psi and the detonation velocity was approximately 3000 mps.

The standard US 105mm HE shell used during WW2 and now has aproximately 2,2 kilograms of TNT(or about 4,8 pounds) and has a total weight of about 15 kilograms (33 pounds) so I am a bit confused by the explosives mass? or was the shells destroyed by using 25 pounds of explosives?

#26: Author: ronson, Location: England

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:00 am
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To add to what rouge5 has written above, the amount of explosive material in an artillery shell is usually between 7 to 15% of its weight.

The effect of the shell is down not to its explosive power or blast, but to the large amount of fragments of the casing that this produces. The size of these fragments is dependent upon the percentage of explosive.

The only shells with a content of 25 pounds of explosive that I know of would have been used in very large guns in the 7.2 to 8" range.

Cheers
Ronson

#27: Author: SFC_Klemer,

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:21 am
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I am new around here Rolling Eyes

...but here is my two cents Very Happy

.

I dont think the arty is over powered personally, I just think I shouldnt be able to call it til I run out, meaning once one volly is over turn around and call it again. Same for air support.

Also as far as rounds and stuff goes, one nicely placed mortar or heavy arty round in a middle of a squad will surely rip it to pieces. Body armor or not.

As far as small arms, any type of MG is really for mass-casualty, suppression fire. A M249 can engage at some pretty decent meters. And you can effectively shoot a still target at 300m with a M4. I personally would favor a M4 over a AK47 just so when I felt the need to burst or full-auto, I could control it better. AK's walk high, so really the first round is the most important of a AK.

But I also on the other hand feel that CC:MT seems to have higher power in its weaponary. I agree with the people that think they are as well. But yet the Javelin is too weak. It fires a sabot type round that our M1A1 Abrams fire. And it rips armor to bits. So I think some adjusting needs done in the area of weapons.

#28: Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:52 pm
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SFC_Klemer wrote:

I am new around here ...but here is my two cents .

Welcome to the forum, u fined much nice stuff here.
I to have some issues with CCMT weapons.

SFC_Klemer wrote:

Also as far as rounds and stuff goes, one nicely placed mortar or heavy arty round in a middle of a squad will surely rip it to pieces. Body armor or not.

Yeh, but at what distance? A mort round is fragmentation, designed to make many frag, as chance of hit is grater, the fragments are rather small, (many effective fragments) and a few large undesirable fragments are a side effect, they can “ripp” body parts at distance, but normal there flight -pass will be upp – backward and not hit anything near the impact aria, one shunk go forward down into the ground, but if it’s a airburst that part may ripp someone a part standing just under. The small “effective fragments” will most likely be absorbed by armourer = “not effective fragments”, exposed parts though may be hit ofcose, what’s the chance of that, specially if it’s a air burst?

SFC_Klemer wrote:

As far as small arms, any type of MG is really for mass-casualty, suppression fire. A M249 can engage at some pretty decent meters.

Mass? As in WW1, standing tall and running toward the MG?? I do believe we learned from that and adjusted. Hit something down on the ground crawling to get into cover, or someone who run for there life fast, is anything but easy and it takes many rnds to do it…

SFC_Klemer wrote:

And you can effectively shoot a still target at 300m with a M4.

Yeh, at shooting range it work just fine. But, how many can do it in real situation? Amazing even how the shooting range makes the bolt action rifle seem so perfect, most even far better then the M16. Until reality sets in, that is. In reality We don’t use the weapons like that.

SFC_Klemer wrote:

I personally would favor a M4 over a AK47 just so when I felt the need to burst or full-auto, I could control it better. AK's walk high, so really the first round is the most important of a AK.

Yeh, but the amount of rounds fired, is a part of the way to win a fire fight, has been specially since WW2, and the downsizing to 5.56 is a adjustment to that, “lead in the air”, to get the upper hand. We dint swoop to the 5.56 because its more effective, (its actually less effective, in city fights we still have 7.62 Nato) we swooped for it allows more “led in the air”, that allows for certain wining tactics.

SFC_Klemer wrote:

But I also on the other hand feel that CC:MT seems to have higher power in its weaponary. I agree with the people that think they are as well. But yet the Javelin is too weak. It fires a sabot type round that our M1A1 Abrams fire.

I don’t believe so (u mean the AT Guided missile?), the Javelin fires no sabot, a sabot is sub calibre dense metal rod, DU or Volfram, the missile use a HEAT tandem war head I believe.

SFC_Klemer wrote:

And it rips armor to bits. So I think some adjusting needs done in the area of weapons.

Yeh, agree..

#29: Author: SFC_Klemer,

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:27 pm
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AT_Stalky wrote:

Welcome to the forum, u fined much nice stuff here.
I to have some issues with CCMT weapons.

Well thank you. I will check on some of the nice stuff here, I chit-chatted on gamespy with someone who uses some of the MODs for CC5 here.

AT_Stalky wrote:

I understand what you are saying, most modern mortar rounds are deadly to anyone within a 8m radius of the hit site, meaning 8m around the shell is almost in all case death. Of course this changes with round size. The impact area is the most deadly. So I dont agree with you on that.

When mortar teams fire the rounds they try to keep them over layered so that the blast radius is larger and more of a area is covered.

A friend of mine, God rest him, was killed in a mortar attack in Iraq, his standard US Army body armor was ripped to shreds. I remember being in the field hospital when they were removing the some of the pieces, most of the pieces were enviromental, meaning rocks, pieces of his own equipment, etc. I cant remember well, but there were like 2 or 3 actual shreds of the mortar round. Nothing over a finger length or wider than a inch. So in essence people tend to hang on the shreds from a mortar rather than all the other hazzards. Its the same affect of a car accident where the tissue box can be a brick. Or a tornado could send a piece of straw through a tree.

As far as airburst that would be horrible in a mortar round, thats why alot of bombs and missiles burst in the air. There are mortar rounds that do burst depending on certain aspects making them burst without a impact.

AT_Stalky wrote:

We did adjust thats why we train with 3 to 5 second rushes. But you know the enemy is in the area lay it out and run the rounds the rushes aren't going to matter. As well as the small items you could hide behind. Also in a ambush type setup creates mass-casualties.
As far as many rounds to do it, thats why M240B 's and M2 .50 cal, M249's etc...have 50 to 100 to 200 round drums, its not a matter of how many rounds its a matter of keeping the enemy pinned and flank. More so when .50 cal's and 7.62 penetrate alot of enviroment, man made objects.

AT_Stalky wrote:

Many can do it in a real situation, thats why its implemented into training, ranges, etc. Though it doesn't happen in current battlefields as much, due to the close quarters of the situations. Also remember our M24 is a bolt action rifle. Think about it, three men supressing a enemy squad, usually they try to flank the fire to escape the kill zone or to flank the MG, where you have say two marksmen with a M4 thats not a hard shot with a well trained soldier. You might get one or two til they catch on, but one or two is good enough.

AT_Stalky wrote:

How less effective do you mean? I mean presonally I don't like the 5.56 round. But I do say it is easier to control on different fire selects. Though I do agree it is more wanted for the amount and price to put it into the air or combat situation. But it is a very well controlled round. Remember heavy round makes a easier drop in the shot. A good example is 9mm and .45 pistol ammo, 9mm FPS (feet per second) is higher than a .45 cal FPS. It also brings to mind that certain BB guns can act like .22 rifles.

AT_Stalky wrote:

I don’t believe so (u mean the AT Guided missile?), the Javelin fires no sabot, a sabot is sub calibre dense metal rod, DU or Volfram, the missile use a HEAT tandem war head I believe.

I should have went int larger depth on this, the Javelin uses a HEAT style round to open a hole in which a sabot style rod enters into the vehicle. So its really the best of both worlds. Also to add in, M1A1 was shot using the new Javelin round. I ripped it apart. If it can take out a M1A1 Abrams tank, it can take out damn near anything in the battle field.

#30: Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:00 pm
—
Hi again

SFC_Klemer wrote:

When mortar teams fire the rounds they try to keep them over layered so that the blast radius is larger and more of a area is covered.

The statistics say the first round is the killer, followed by no 2, there after its pretty useless as ppl are in cover, that why the new how’s fires with diff LG's in a way that make some 4 round from each barrel hit at the same aria at the same time (morts cant do that). So aria fire isn’t used to kill first hand, rather to suppress..

SFC_Klemer wrote:

remember being in the field hospital when they were removing the some of the pieces, most of the pieces were enviromental, meaning rocks, pieces of his own equipment, etc. I cant remember well, but there were like 2 or 3 actual shreds of the mortar round. Nothing over a finger length or wider than a inch.

Sry for that, size of finger frags is big frags not that many in a round, that may explain why body armour failed, bless him..

SFC_Klemer wrote:

As far as many rounds to do it, thats why M240B 's and M2 .50 cal, M249's etc...have 50 to 100 to 200 round drums, its not a matter of how many rounds its a matter of keeping the enemy pinned and flank. .

Yeh, so I ask my self why this is so poorly represented in CCMT

SFC_Klemer wrote:

It has to do with humans behaviour under stress.
And about marksmen and snipers, they do aim, most "normal" soldiers don’t, they point and fire, fire, fire that’s what different from the shooting range there everyone aim..

SFC_Klemer wrote:

If we talk fire power, 5.56 has "little" vs 7.62, (its about half of 7.62), if we talk effect of wind and misjudgement of distance 7.62 is the winner. Controlled auto fire, 5.56 wins, still has max 3 round auto, but the main idea of 5.56 is the weight and cost of rounds, you can carry 2+ times more 5.56, and use it and get the upper hand in a fire fight.
That what’s decisive, suppression, and then that open up for other options, bring up the AT-4 and blast em, or get a team in close and finish em of with HE, flank em or whatever, the one with superiority has the upper hand and used right he will win, not because the 5.56 rifle ammo in it self is so “effective” its not, the whole idea of 5.56 its quantity not quality..

SFC_Klemer wrote:

Not really I believe, no sabot follows, its first an explosive to rip off the Reactive Armourer, and then a new HEAT war head that hit the "cleaned" aria and penetrates.

#31: Author: RD_Thomas_Ross, Location: Pontiac Illinois

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:48 pm
—

AT_Stalky wrote:

Hi again

SFC_Klemer wrote:

When mortar teams fire the rounds they try to keep them over layered so that the blast radius is larger and more of a area is covered.

Actually it is possible to do a TOT mission (Time On Target) as well with mortars,multiple rounds impacting simultaneously can and is devastating....

#32: Author: RD_Thomas_Ross, Location: Pontiac Illinois

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:50 pm
—
Welcome aboard SFC.

Former SFC here as well.

Airborne leads the way!

#33: Author: SFC_Klemer,

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:03 pm
—

RD_Thomas_Ross wrote:

Welcome aboard SFC.

Former SFC here as well.

Airborne leads the way!

Awesome...when to when?

1996 to present. Airborne, and a whole crap load of worthless junk too Wink

LOL

So anyways, that was my point with the mortars, like when I play i overlay my mortar fire when I know the enemy in the AO is larger than the force it is closest too.

#34: Author: RD_Thomas_Ross, Location: Pontiac Illinois

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:32 pm
—
85 til last year with a couple of breaks here and there.
Just remember....not worthless just useless lol.

Got a bunch of buddies that are 11C and they tell me its a blast to watch a bunch of 4.2s just totally smoke an area.....kinda hard to beat a full house with a pair of deuces.

AoS fire(Area of Supression) is paramount when facing a larger force ar once the main axis of attack if defined.
1) Force attrition.
2)Supression.
3) Allows for redisposition of forces to meet the enemy.

Never have to blanket an area in RL as the effects of incoming rounds have a definitive effect an morale and movement.

#35: Author: SFC_Klemer,

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:55 pm
—

RD_Thomas_Ross wrote:

85 til last year with a couple of breaks here and there.
Just remember....not worthless just useless lol.

Got a bunch of buddies that are 11C and they tell me its a blast to watch a bunch of 4.2s just totally smoke an area.....kinda hard to beat a full house with a pair of deuces.

AoS fire(Area of Supression) is paramount when facing a larger force ar once the main axis of attack if defined.
1) Force attrition.
2)Supression.
3) Allows for redisposition of forces to meet the enemy.

Never have to blanket an area in RL as the effects of incoming rounds have a definitive effect an morale and movement.

Useless in the Civilian enviroment....LOL

I know some Charlies as well...I was 11B from 1996 to 1999, Ft. Bragg NC. Now since then I moved on to fast track myself. In fact I am coming up for a promotion soon to MSG.

So anywho pounding a bit with mortars is always a plus thing with me (as far as CC, dont really get them in my actual AO) as I thump em with the tubes I flank and supress, which usually gains my win.

#36: Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:54 pm
—

RD_Thomas_Ross wrote:

AT_Stalky wrote:

Hi again

SFC_Klemer wrote:

When mortar teams fire the rounds they try to keep them over layered so that the blast radius is larger and more of a area is covered.

Actually it is possible to do a TOT mission (Time On Target) as well with mortars,multiple rounds impacting simultaneously can and is devastating....

Hi there

Thanx for the input Ross.

What you say is a bit new to me, or do you refer to TOT as by multiple batteries TOT, and they calculate there diff In time to target and thus impact at same time, is that what you mean? That’s still a single barrel deliver a single round, and the next round from the same barrel come with delay. I mean same way as the mec/motor computerized how's do it.

A singe barrel tri pod mortar, mussel loaded man mechanic operated, can a single tri pod mort deliver multiple rounds at same time at same target (not the breach loaded, and motor operated computerized new fancy mortar we (Sweden) has today)?

I mean, for example a 8 cm mort Lg 3 at 950meter with 71 elevation degree and after that round is fired one shall reset the mortar and change the elevation degree manually to 63 degree and be able to get the next round Lg 2 in to the barrel exact 3,3 seconds after the Lg2 has left the barrel for it to arrive at same time… And then one do the same procedure and change to Lg 1 within, uh, but that not possible for 8 cm Lg1 cant reach 950 meters, (max 650) but anyway.
A 12 cm tri pod mort, grenade with Lg 1, -2, -3 at 1200 meter would demand EXACT 3,1 seconds between grenade has left barrel and re-elevate and reloaded to make em hit target same time. That would be impressive. I honest must say I never seen it done. You mean US do this with tripod morts?

#37: Author: RD_Thomas_Ross, Location: Pontiac Illinois

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:33 pm
—
Sorry Stalky....was talking about a battery of mortars.

Now I have heard that some artillery peices can get off 3 rounds and have them arrive simultaneously by using elevation and various powder charges. Of course that is calculated by computer.

#38: Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:42 pm
—
Hi again

Thanks for clarifying Ross,

plz forgive my crappy English, I do my best.

Stalk

#39: Author: RD_Thomas_Ross, Location: Pontiac Illinois

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:52 pm
—
No worries about your English skills......you do better than a lot of Americans I know lol.

#40: Author: SFC_Klemer,

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:24 pm
—

AT_Stalky wrote:

Hi again

Thanks for clarifying Ross,

plz forgive my crappy English, I do my best.

Stalk

RD_Thomas_Ross wrote:

No worries about your English skills......you do better than a lot of Americans I know lol.

Yeah your english is great, and like Tom says, Its a heck of alot better than most Americans....

#41: Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:33 am
—
hehe

Thanx men Embarassed

#42: Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:37 am
—
(double posting)

#43: Author: SFC_Klemer,

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:47 am
—

AT_Stalky wrote:

hehe

Thanx men Embarassed

No problem. But dont blush, makes me feel wierd then....LOL

#44: Author: RD_Thomas_Ross, Location: Pontiac Illinois

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:48 am
—
Kinda in a dirty not so good kinda way?

I usually get that from my ex wives...all 3 of em....

#45: Author: SFC_Klemer,

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:41 am
—

RD_Thomas_Ross wrote:

Kinda in a dirty not so good kinda way?

I usually get that from my ex wives...all 3 of em....

Yeesh, I get it from the first one...LOL

the current is cool, helps she is military too....though that could not be a good thing LOL

#46: Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:22 pm
—
haha,

I try this again:

Thanx men Neutral

Okay, plz back to topic: "CCMT Weapons to lethal?" Smile

Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Modern Tactics

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