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Those are quite the same as SS units, NKVD units in WW2. |
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I would class the average WW2 Japanese soldier as a fanatic. |
Blackstump wrote (View Post): |
This post is inspired by a recent CCs survey.
Fanatic by definition usally applies to those who have (or suffers from) a religous fervour. |
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I dont believe that the average SS soldier was a fanatic. Maybe Hitler had some esoteric bent, but im sure his religion was left of Atillas. I would class the average WW2 Japanese soldier as a fanatic. |
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No doubt some SS soldiers where terroists but since they were uniformed regular soldiers probably sadists would be a better description. These are found in all armies and all walks of life. |
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Is the Muslim minority hardliners with a large moderate Muslim community as a possible back up, our worst threat to world peace. Those i would call Religous fanatics. |
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Or could Iran or North Korea be the real threat of tommorow. Those i would call Political fanatics. Or maybe its China with its fast expanding power and the worlds largest army the latter probably qualifying for a warrior nation these days. |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
Let me see if I got this anti-German crusade right? |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
-Every German citizens, from 1933 to present days are guilty of the war-crimes committed during WWII? |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
-The entire German 'army' (including Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and SS) are guilty of war-crimes and holocaust, regardless if they committed any or not? |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
-But in a war or any other armed conflict, there are no 'good' or 'bad' guys. |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
What about war-crimes, atrocities and crimes against humanity committed by the Allied during WWII? Have there ever been a Nuremberg Trial about that? |
Therion wrote (View Post): |
No, it's a crusade against Nazi Germany, more precisely against German war of aggression. |
Therion wrote (View Post): |
Nice try to whitewash the history and hiding behind Holocaust and so called "war crimes". Do you have trouble comprehending why participating in German war of aggression was fucking evil? WWII was about German soldiers illegally crossing borders of other countries, murdering government servicemen trying to stop them, destroying government property, murdering civilians with bombs and artillery, destroying unimaginable amounts of private property, mass robbery, mass kidnappings, slavery, etc. The rest was attempt to stop them and to make them give back what they have stolen. |
Therion wrote (View Post): |
While I can sympathize with German soldiers that fought because they were forced to fight, I absolutely condemn those who participated in German wars of aggression because of stuff like "duty", "honour", "patriotism", "nationalism", etc. or enjoyed the idea of German conquest in any way. |
Therion wrote (View Post): |
There are bad guys. Those who start wars of aggression and those who willingly participate in them. |
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The entire German 'army' (including Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and SS) are guilty of war-crimes and holocaust, regardless if they committed any or not? |
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Have you forgotten the Nuremberg Trials? The Germans have already been trialled, sentenced or freed from all allegations. (under more, or less, correct forms...) |
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What about war-crimes, atrocities and crimes against humanity committed by the Allied during WWII? Have there ever been a Nuremberg Trial about that |
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The Western Allied have a 70-year old tradition of terror-bombing their opponents to submission. |
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GW Bush used lies about WMD to invade Iraq; -But one of the few country that have used WMD in an armed conflict is USA! |
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There were a Swed during WWII that became a Concentration-camp guard, not because he hated Jews or was a hard-core Nazi. -He wanted to go to Germany and become a policeman, since he admired the German society, but once there he ended up as a guard against his intentions since he had applied to SS-vt without knowing it... |
Dima wrote (View Post): | ||
how come one could be so naive? |
Dima wrote (View Post): | ||
in comparison to the German atrocities they are nothing.. |
Dima wrote (View Post): | ||
haha, so true for A.Hitler and his army . |
Dima wrote (View Post): | ||
there were much more sweds fighing in SS against USSR. If you check CSO site, i quoted number of sweds hold as POW in 1946. Hopefully, Wiking has very fast people turnover on EF . |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): | ||
Isn't all wars wars of aggression? |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
-There have been many wars of aggression since WWII, why are all people so quick to condemn Nazi-Germany, while another country can start them over and over again with the silent-approval from the rest of the world? My answer: "winners-and-loosers", money and rhetoric... |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
I have never, and will never, whitewash the crimes committed by Nazi-Germany! Adolf was a sick puppy, and the crimes committed due to him should never be forgotten. The risk if we forget is another dogmatic leader like Adolf may rise again somewhere and do it all over again. |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
My point is that there were an unique situation after WWII, with the Nuremberg Trials, so the majority of those guilty of crimes were trialled. |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
My point is that there were an unique situation after WWII, with the Nuremberg Trials, so the majority of those guilty of crimes were trialled. We can't keep blaming Germany and those who were born in 'the wrong country' for decade after decade. It's been 65 since the war ended, it's maybe time to forgive and forget some parts of what happened? |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
My point is that there were an unique situation after WWII, with the Nuremberg Trials, so the majority of those guilty of crimes were trialled. We can't keep blaming Germany and those who were born in 'the wrong country' for decade after decade. It's been 65 since the war ended, it's maybe time to forgive and forget some parts of what happened? And maybe we should take the leaf from our eyes? All participants committed crimes, it's the human nature of war to do that... |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
If those aren't reasons to fight a war, aggressive or not, we better scrap every army in the world. (A good idea on its own, but not a realistic one...) Ask any soldier and that's the reasons he thinks he fights; -Unless he's a cold-hearted realist and does it for money. Any army is indoctrinated with words like "duty", "honour", "patriotism", "nationalism", etc. |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
And are all 'Bad Guys' really bad? There were a Swed during WWII that became a Concentration-camp guard, not because he hated Jews or was a hard-core Nazi. -He wanted to go to Germany and become a policeman, since he admired the German society, but once there he ended up as a guard against his intentions since he had applied to SS-vt without knowing it... |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
It is the nature of an armed force to follow order without discussion. If you don't do it, you are committing a crime, just as much as if you follows an order to murder civilians or bomb a village. The problem for a soldier is the fact that he is bound to follow orders, but he can't use the fact that he followed orders as a defence if he commits a crime... |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
And yes, the people on the streets demonstrates against the war, then they listen to the political rhetoric of those supporting the war (the self-good, lying, political-bastards in our governments) and votes for them another mandate-period. Sadly, every democracy today is a joke; -It's not the people that rules a country today, it is the money! (and I'll guess that it answers your question if I believe in "justice of courts and politics"?) But, I'm no the one that claims I'm the self-righteous one who defend democracy and freedom. I'm just a grumpy old man that wants people to look beyond the 'truth' they feed us with. And if that means I have to defend the 'wrong side' to create a debate and make people think, so be it. |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
I'm just a grumpy old man that wants people to look beyond the 'truth' they feed us with. |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
What I mean is that we can't keep bashing the Germans for what happened over 60 years ago, they don't have a genetic liability for WWII. |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
And you can't blame every soldiers of the Riech for what some of them did with the approval and orders of the system; -Just as little as you can blame the entire US Army for what have happened in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq, or every muslim for what some fanatics have done. |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
It is the nature of an armed force to follow order without discussion. If you don't do it, you are committing a crime, just as much as if you follows an order to murder civilians or bomb a village. The problem for a soldier is the fact that he is bound to follow orders, but he can't use the fact that he followed orders as a defence if he commits a crime... |
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post): |
Self-defence and protection of innocents are beautiful words and a just cause to fight, but sadly you don't here those words very often when professional soldiers talks about why they are fighting. "Even the old Greeks" talked about honour, duty and patriotism, nationalism came much later with the creation of the National states as we know them today. I'm not only defending the Prussian officers who fought for Hitler under those banners, but every soldier that are broken into believing that: -Werther it is before or after enlisting. |
vonB wrote (View Post): |
Any individual whose conscience (or intelligence) found themselves at odds with this, could certainly find themselves suffering the consequences themselves from their own side. There are those who refused to accept the brutalities, and some of those paid with their lives, which merely illustrates the mistake in generalising. |
vonB wrote (View Post): |
As with everything in life, context is important. A fanatic is someone who is intolerant to any alternative (to their view). This does not mean that it is by definition malignant. However, because the psychology of the fanatic is obsessional, it can often manifest maliganantly.
It is not limited to religion; it is more a characteristic of human nature. In most (all?) religions, you can see a distribution of 'believers', who range from the loose to the fundemental. A fundementalist 'Christian' is as dangerous as a fundementalist 'Muslim'. The abherrance is the fundementalism, not the religion. |
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Can atrocities and crimes be graded? If the 'Good Guys' kills a POW, it's less of a crime than if a nazi does it? -Didn't the Allies go to war to fight for human rights and freedom? And I'm not talking about the Holocaust or aggressive war here, I'm talking about crimes against the Geneva Convention, rap, murder, pillaging, terror-bombings etc. |
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I'm talking about crimes against the Geneva Convention, rap, murder, pillaging, terror-bombings etc. |
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Maybe you can enlighten me here Dima? I've heard rumours about casualty-numbers on the Eastern Front that indicates the use of gas, but did any side ever use it? |
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For instance, Guderian had enough guts and moral firmness to ignore stupid order about non-retreating in face of the Soviet 1941/42 offensive. He was sacked because of it, and he might have been even shot! |
dj wrote (View Post): |
One Man's definition of terrorist is another man's definition of freedom fighter.
Afganistan 1980's Islamic Holy Warriors were considered Terrorists to the Soviets. Martyrs and Heros to the Afganistan resistance. Freedom Fighters and "Allies" to the United States. 30 years later most of these same Afgan Fighters are now considered enemies to the United States and our NATO allies. |
dj wrote (View Post): |
I think in answer to the OP's main point... fanaticism is best described as a soldier or chain of command that acts in premeditated crimes against humanity. |
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AFAIK these Afghan Fighters become bandit warlords that later were attacked by the Taliban and formed the Northern Alliance which NATO supported during the war in Afghanistan. So, they are still American allies. |
dj wrote (View Post): |
ouch salt in the wounds...it is bitter irony that now almost 10 years after the war began, we are right back at square one negotiating potential peace terms with the initial enemy factions. Or at least Karzai is negotiating. Yes there are very strange rumours and stories about drug trade and "missing" American funds that were supposedly for aid purposes. Karzai's brother on the CIA payroll? Billions of $ mysteriously being moved with no audit trail. Troops are on orders to destroy marijuana I saw in a documentary. Re: the Norther Alliance the main leader was assassinated. Also rumours of U.S. / NATO aircraft being downed by AA weapons...possibly some of the U.S. supplied stinger AA missles that never were completely accounted for. Plus Pakistan has its own agenda...going back to the days of the USSR vs Muhajideen - U.S. funded battles. It was never U.S. directly - Pakistan intelligence was the middle man. Pakistan is like a free-swinging mercenary that is trying to oppress both Afganistan and India...all the while using the U.S. for whatever $ it can swindle.
Iran sending suitcases of cash to Karzai? Not sure what that is about. |
dj wrote (View Post): |
China 50 years after Korea is now America's #1 trading partner. So it really was NOT all about Communism being the evil world enemy #1? |
dj wrote (View Post): |
Vietnam likewise is now on the fast track to preferred trading partner. Intel allegedly is moving a major production facility there soon. |
dj wrote (View Post): |
It really equates to virtual slave labor and maximizing profits for U.S. corporations. It doesn't matter that millions of American jobs have been permanently replaced in China, Vietnam, India and even former Warsaw Pact nations. I guess it really had nothing to do with politics now that the USSR is gone. |
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What? China stopped being communist some time ago. It's exploitative capitalist now. |
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The rest of you seems to be racists that hates EVERY german for something that their country did over 65 years ago. |
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Stalin was responsible for the deaths of about 30 million soviet nationals (deliberate starvation and excecution of anti-soviet elements) during his time |
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as well as the deportion and excecution of Jews, intellectuals,ethnic groups like different cossack tribes, estonians, finns, georgians and those who activly practiced different religion like buddishm. |
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The NKVD was like the Gestapo and had their own concentration camps : the Gulags |
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Stalin was responsible for the deaths of about 30 million soviet nationals (deliberate starvation and excecution of anti-soviet elements) during his time
where did you get these numbers from? |
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as well as the deportion and excecution of Jews, intellectuals,ethnic groups like different cossack tribes, estonians, finns, georgians and those who activly practiced different religion like buddishm.
wtf? are you serious? |
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Every state's Domestic Affairs Ministry has it's own prisons, camps, etc. |
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From different online sources,books and documentrys. But i must confess that the "excact" numbers are unclear, which ranges from 9-30 million. |
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Yes Im serious. |
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The NKVD hunted down Jews as well as Intellectuals for roughly the same reasons the Nazis did. |
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Perhaps the Soviet Union didn't kill so many of these unfortunate, but they did deport a huge amount of people to Siberia and the Gulags there. |
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The cossacks and the baltic-states were the ones who were hit hardest by the NKVD nd for example Lithuania got about 20% of its populance deported to Siberia as cheap labour because they were "kolaks" (independat "rich" farmers). |
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Religion in all was "forbidden" in the USSR, all churches and chapells were closed,but during the dark days of the Nazi invasion Stalin decided to open them to lift the spirit and morale of the people. |
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Btw, i think the Katyn massacre is a good example. Around 200 Polish officers executed because they could be trouble in the future. |
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War is always total war. |
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No need to cry for handful of jews which were killed. In fact, jews killed millions of Ukrainians (Holodomor) and Russians during communist regime. Every side was taking part of atrocities, but still my opinion is that jews were the biggest war criminals in WWII. |
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again, false number by you.. |
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Anyway, good example of anti-ussr fanatic |
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Some explination of the unclear numbers of dead kulaks (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulaks) "The overwhelming majority of kulaks executed and imprisoned were male,but precise numbers are somewhat difficult to obtain. |
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Many historians consider the great famine a result of the "liquidation of the kulaks as a class," which complicates the estimation of death tolls. |
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A wide range of death tolls has been suggested, from as many as 60 million suggested by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn to as few as 700,000 by Soviet news sources" |
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Check this about the Soviet view of religion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia |
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False is such a "angry" word, I just forgot to hit two more "0"s. |
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That seems a bit unacalled for, but yeah...perhaps you are a too proud russian to listen? |
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Just tried to point out that NAzi germany wern't the only bad guys during the 20th century |
dj wrote (View Post): |
Yes I am the first to admit unfortunately my nation has blood on its hands with Iraq as it was an illegal invasion in my opinion. But America does NOT systematically and in pre-meditated manner conduct... ...crimes against humanity. |
dj wrote (View Post): |
USSR of course participated in brutal crimes against humanity of historic proportions but the vast majority was against other USSR citizens for political fanatic purposes. Also the USSR did not instigate conflict but actually was complicit with forming treaty of cooperation with Nazi's until 1941.June when Stalin could not believe he was attacked by his supposed ally.
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Soviet did not instigate conflict? Well, not vs Germany ofcose..
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and most importent its secret protocol |
karlmortar wrote (View Post): |
The rest of you seems to be racists that hates EVERY german for something that their country did over 65 years ago. |
karlmortar wrote (View Post): |
not to mentioning the killing of thousends of civilians in further conflicts like Korea, Vietnam |
karlmortar wrote (View Post): | ||
The last time I checked, China is still a communist totalitarian state (In it's own ways). |
Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post): |
War is always total war. |
Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post): |
No need to cry for handful of jews which were killed. |
dj wrote (View Post): |
It is a good question on evolution of Communism and Capitalism. The main thing appears to be "one party state" with total government control over media, birth control, etc. |
dj wrote (View Post): |
Very good - did you copy / paste that from one of your favorite David Duke white surpremist Tea Klux Klan or Neo-Nazi websites? |
Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post): |
Did you even read what you wrote? No you didn´t.
You made allied war crimes acceptable because after the war Yankees rebuilt Europe and Japan. By thinking that way SS human tests in camps and tests by Unit 731 were justified because it boosted medicine. |
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