Crashes and bugs etc… The map of Lyptsi was weird. From the Soviet side on deployment it would look we had VLs but then we couldn’t actually deploy there, it seemed the VLs were mixed up for some reason. This made it practically impossible to play this map so we decided to try and bypass it, leaving it as held by the Germans. But it was also a map where reformed German BGs would deploy and attack from, so it was not good for us as we always had to defend it with a BG nearby. It also made any North Western thrust difficult for the Soviets. We often had random crashes from airstrikes (in nearly all cases the Axis airstrikes), barrages, or for other unknown reasons. Most of the times it would be the first battle of our gaming session. We would then try to recreate (VLs, tank losses etc…) as good as we could and then truce. But the crashes didn’t happen so often that we ever felt like stopping the Campaign.
Hi, thanks to you and Schmal_Turm for the feedback.
You have tested v 2.3 very deeply (more than me). Glad to see h2h works well. So:
- In v 2.3 Some (few) inner maps are German deployment maps. A weird choice yes, but it's something I thought and made to simulate the German superiority here. In this battle, only something like one third of maps have been an historical theatre of battle: this is due to fact the Russian offensive has been a disaster since the first days basically for two reasons: poor strategical/tactical knowledge/experience (not the complete unpreparedness of 1941, but still not the experience of 1943), and the fact the germans had chosen this area as penetration point for an upcoming offensive, so a lot of german troops were massed there (and were coming there). Inner deployment maps represent the "constant pressure", the superiority of germans due their upcoming offensive (that has become a counteroffensive). - What you say about Lyptsi sounds like a bug (my bug). Can you explain better the concept: "it seemed we had Vls to deploy troops (on soviet side), but we could not do it"? What happens exactly? Other users have had this bug? - "first fight" battle of the campaign (new or from a savegame) it's a old hardcoded bug, pressing the button to go into the battle from the BG screen (from stratmap to battlemap). I have never had a single crash for an airstrike or a barrage. Another hardcoded possible bug: maps full of wrecks where IA tries to generate a "new" wreck in a place already occuped by a wreck: it crashes. Anyway: random airplane airstrike or an airplane in particular? Barrages...? - I have never had problems with ML-30 (maybe it's about range: I mean its minimum range, therefore a correct behavior that seems apparently wrong). Both ML-30 and M-20 (and their German counterpart in the mod) are big artillery guns that usually are not in a game like CC (they are part of the off map artillery barrage) due to their minimum range (probably it's the same about rocket launchers, at least Katyusha) which is often uncomfortable for CC. My goal, inserting them in the forcepools, it was to augment the idea of a "big battle" like this one effectively it was. - There are some others hardcoded bugs listed in the readme file. - Data is not 100% perfect (very minor errors I'm able to correct with the experience of now), but it's extremely solid about single player. I have never played a h2h game, so I don't know if they are present hardcoded crash bugs that only appear in h2h.
Autumn/winter is the worst time for me about free time (this year in particular; anyway now is summer). But there is another thing: the work it was already in an advanced state, but it has happened to me a thing that usually never (and I say never) happens to me: data files reworked by me have been lost (and not for my fault). Well, this has demotivated me, but I still had a partial work about weapons file and I have re-completed it. Then I have returned to work the vehicles (some are reworked, some not, but there are no more old/useless vehicles from the original file). I have also corrected/added some soldiers (I always speak about the file). Finally, I had a recent version of BG file: it's reworked in the first 4 columns (the other must be completed after teams will be completed).
So, I have seen all the PM in this moment: what I have written above it answers to almost all of them, here I add:
Dima: if your offer is still valid, as you can see I really need a hand about Data to complete the mod. If you accept, here is some quick info: I'm satisfied about weapons data and the vehicles I have reworked, but feel free to correct something if you think is necessary. Don't add vehicles/tanks. Add soldiers (they must be added) in relation to the weapons I have created (and some soldier of Waldganger work must be deleted). Teams must be deeply reworked and renamed, as forcepools. I have the TLD workbook with all files.
Thanks to all for the support and the attention. Drizzt
P.S. Waldganger work about forcepools was not a real work: it was just a way to let the .exe file to work (in CC5, not in TLD) : they were all to be created like starting from scratch. All other Data files needed a very deep work for both technical and historical reasons. This is the why, basically, my work on Data was not just a "re-work", but it was very similar to a totally new work.
Someone has created the plugin in the past, but not me: it's the old version (v 1.0 has the plugin). Inside this forum (CC5 Kharkov) you can find my thread with the download link to v 1.2 (the last version of CC5 Kharkov mod). Having said this, I don't understand why you want to play the CC5 version: for what I remember you have played the TLD (or WAR) version. There is another forum in this site about the TLD/WAR versions of the mod (you can find it in the first forum page where the forum are listed: it's under "Close Combat the Longest Day"). Last version downloadable is v 2.3 (but it can be you have also the v 2.2). TLD/WAR versions are really better than CC5 version: for example, there are 64 maps and Data has been reworked more.
About kursk mod, from here to March/May its' the worst period about my free time, but I think and I hope to finish it for the end of the year.
Are you aiming to create a historical mod or a just-for-fun game with arcade style gameplay?
If 'yes'. the how do you plan to recreate one of the largest tank battles in history on a dated simulation that was solely created for infantry:infantry combat with light support in close (under 300 meter) engagements?
People will play it and enjoy it, and I'm sure you will do excellent work, Drizzt. Unfortunately, it won't be 'Close Combat' for me.
I will recreate the right proportions with the reinforcement system. This is true in particular for russians; germans have almost all the BGs there; In fact, the problem is that it's impossible to insert all the Bgs due to the game engine limitation. The russian Bgs are many more than the german ones (also) because their structure is more "light" (a russian regiment/division has less number of men and tanks/vehicles of the german one). Moreover, in this battle there was also a russian superiority in numbers.
About the rest, you have a superficial knowledge of this battle: 1) It's mainly, really mainly, a biggest infantry battle. And more in general, during all the days of the battle it's a battle of attrition (not conceived as such, but in fact has become such for several reasons). 2) There aren't "the largest tank battles in history", there is a single huge tank battle in a specific timeline and sector of the battle. Among other things, many historians have downgraded this huge tank battle to the second one more larger in history.
Having said this, of course the game engine limitations are always present.
EDIT: Obviously, inside the battle of Kursk there were also many battles that involved tanks against tanks and tanks against infantry/AT guns, but in a numerical proportion very similar to many other battles of WW2 (and yes, in the mod there will be many Bgs with tanks). When I wrote the post I took it for granted, but better to specify it.
Due to personal/work commitments and other technical issues concerning the mod (which I will talk about shortly) I failed to comply with the roadmap. I mean that the mod is not yet finished, but the work on it has proceeded at a good pace anyway and it does not miss much at the conclusion. Here are the details of what has been done and what remains to do:
- Stratmap.txt slowed my work due the fact that many of the coordinates extracted from the original .exe kursk file were the default ones (CC5). So I have created many of them on my own. I must insert only the map overview coordinates. On this file all the rest has been done. - The work on Data has continued and now I must work on the teams: I must rework all of them (in accordance with other Data files reworked by me) and add the images of the new ones. After them, I will create the forcepools. - I have selected music, sounds, and video files for the mod: I have not yet worked on them, but for sure it will be not a long work. EDIT: about "sounds" I mean soldiers voices. The main sound file it's ready: it had been already deeply reworked by me while I was working on weapons Data. - Files for “Extras” folder has been created, just one of them has not been yet made. - Of course I still have to create battles, operations and Campaigns , but I have already collected info about them. - The final number of maps in the mod will be 54, so 10 more than the original plan. All the variegated work to expand the maps in the mod from 44 to 54 has been finished (it has been a time consuming work). - About maps, thanks to the big (about quantity) and awesome (about quality) work of Southernland, and thanks to the help in coding some maps provided by Aetius (at the end of his work will be 4-5, I think), the final count of maps will be the following: - 36 new maps created by Southernland, both in old and new kursk style. - 3 org COI maps enlarged and updated (updated = lightly reworked to ensure uniformity with the other maps of the mod) - 1 org CC3 map reworked (to adapt it to the needs of the mod) and updated. - 2 custom maps reworked and updated. - 12 custom maps updated. The rework and update works have been made always by Southernland. At this moment, just 2 new maps, 4 custom maps and 1 COI map are not yet completed, so they remain only 7 maps to finish: the work on the maps it's almost finished. - About the 54 btd maps files (the only maps files of my competence), they are all half-finished: I have created the entry and exit Vls for all of them, but I must finish them and compile the word file with the victory points.
This time I prefer don't give a release date, considering I don't have respected the first one, but for sure the work it's in a real advanced state and my motivation to finish it it's of course intact. That’s all for now.
I have verified that, in my opinion, is not a bug in your program, but a bug in the game. I have verified it in the following way: - a screenshot of org CC TLD destratmap screen, reworked in a graphic program and resized to original 800x600 size. Plus map 0 destratmap map tga. - a screenshot of org CC TLD maps overview screen, reworked in a graphic program and resized to the original 800x600 size. Plus red ring tga. - stratmap.txt opened. Map 0 coordinate checked about destratmap and maps overview.
Result: destratmap coordinates match perfectly in the image in graphic program; instead, maps overview coordinates are wrong in the same way (something like 25-30 pixels more east and 6-8 more north).
Basically, for me it means the following: org map overview coordinates are of course correct (correct = adapted to this bug), so there is “something of wrong” in the image, I mean in the way that the image is processed at coding level (a bug). Using your program the issue it starts from the opposite point of view, but the wrong result it’s the same (in your program it can be showed the image and the red ring can be placed correctly, but in the game it results wrong in the same way).
I suppose that coders had adjusted red ring in a similar way like the mine: manually changing the coordinates multiple times, and verifying multiple times in the game the result (I always use a temporary overview map with every map position colored of a specific color to finish the work more quickly). I also suspect that it's a very old bug (CC5) never corrected (it interests coders, not players).
Hello: About the camo, a dark brown like the RAF dark earth is improbable as stated above, but light brown is another story. Light brown was tested in 1940, but the soviets chosed green & black in 1941, however in 1943 (after Kursk) become a standard color for the new camo schemes. An exceptional order was issued to mix paints following strict instructions to obtain the new colors, until the new paints were available, but not in the case of light brown. Also the place in the numbering secuence for the light brown paint was lower than the official 1941 colors, it's a indication that was seriously considerd as standard color just before the war. In my opinion the use of light brown in aircraft sent to front to test camos in field conditions or as non standard camo is plausible. Another paint related theme, the development of green paints used in aircrafts was related to army paints, the green paint tested in 1940 was the same paint for AFV. So green aviation paint had a very close shade to AFV green paint. Bye.
Excellent news, since I was talking about light brown: I was seriously considering changing the brown to black, but with this information there is no longer any need for it.
About russian aircraft camouflage, there was many baseless things published in the West. This started in the Cold War when the info available was scant. So many profiles, artwork, and scale models were based the interpretations of the b/w images without documental support. In this context surged the interpretation that early war camo was green and brown, repeated even after the end of the Cold War. For example Flying Colors (Green & Swanborough, Salamander Books 1999) stated that the schemas was "dark green and earth brown" (names bororwed from RAF nomenclature) and that green and black was tractor paint used in a factory that previously made farm machinery. The evidence about brown painting in Soviet made planes, it's that in 1940 the light brown was among the colors tested for aircraft camouflage. This tone was used in a scheme applied in a batch of 28 LaGG-3. Apparently was a serious candidate for inclusion in official schemes, but green and black was chosen. In July 1943 was included in the non-fighter scheme. No dark brown shade (I meaning a tone like dark earth used by RAF) was included in any official scheme, only as color for airplane oil pipes (interior components and sub-systems were color coded). Closest thing to special camouflage in mod's timeframe and area it's a photo of a Yak-7 157 IAP 16 VA (Central Front) with a band of a clear color (claimed to be light brown) between the black and green areas. Contrast between colors in b/w photos varied depending of paint type and its wear, light conditions, camera setings, film used, etc.
For German planes the ID markings were discrete for Kursk period, Fw-190, Hs-129 and Stukas had a yellow band around the fuselage close to tail unit, bow and wingtip markings only in the undersides.
I understand that this is a land wargame not a flight simulator, and that plane camo is an minor detail, sorry for my complaints.
About weapons plane weapons, What you choice for Shturmoviks? 23mm or 37mm guns, rockets, frag. bombs, PTAB?
Hi, thanks for the info and for the time you have dedicated to this research. What I want underline, is that the sources I have read never report that green-brown was an official scheme, but a regional camouflage, in a way not different to the white paint on the aircrafts in winter. "Regional" it refers to the climatic conditions and the terrain. These regional camouflages were unofficial. Having said this, I can't know in an empiric way how much were diffused/really used. You seem ported to think that this is a fake info distorced in the years for the reasons you have explained, but without russian documents/witness how can I know where is the truth?
IL-2 armament I have chosen: Vya-23mm, ShKAS 7.62mm, PTAB, RS-82 Raketa (raketa=rockets: it's an optional armament).
EDIT: thanks ScnelleMeyer for the link! I will take a look in the following days. (I have seen your link after that I have written this post)
wow, really looking forward to this ... thanks to you and Southernland.
do you have any images/screenshots of some of the vehicles?
I use Waldganger original work. I have created the graphic and the Data of 3 of them (respecting the style of other tanks/vehicles) and I have added in Data few versions of them that don't need a new graphic. I have also added a gun and two aircrafts. Having said this, you can see the original work in CC5 Kursk album in combat camera.
P.S. Azp work it means: - creation/insertion of the things I have spoken above. - creation/insertion of all the wrecks (they were from CC3: too small and different from tanks/vehicles). - Creation/insertion of many shadows of the wrecks (anyway all tanks/vehicles shadows must be tested in the beta: Waldganger has used a particular and realistic way for them, but that can cause problems if it's not implemented correctly at 100%). - Correction of all the differences in the files names (uppercase-lowercase included) between guns, shadows, tanks and wrecks to avoid game crashes, realized with a general renaming of all these files (all re-built), also to help my work in Data.
We are near to the end of May. Here an exhaustive update about the progress of the mod:
Southernland has created many awesome maps in a new “Kursk style”. There are also new maps (made by him) in the old “kursk style”. New kursk style it’s more various (not only wilderness in the maps) and cool, and it’s also complementary with the old one. The new maps will be at least 30, probably few more, 18 of them already finished. There are also some custom maps deeply reworked. Some peculiar/primary maps have been made following specific requests (considering the battlefield and the terrain). The unexpected abundance of maps (thanks Southernland!) has convinced me to extend the stratmap, considering also the fact that I had augmented the BGs to 64. I have made it having in mind the limits and the design of the original stratmap. There will be 8 new stratmap positions. 5 obtained by org stratmap positions splitted in two and 3 totally new (so, in total, maps will be 52). Two months ago I had already corrected some maps names and changed few others, so also this new work it’s respectful of the real disposition of the villages in the area in 1943. Moreover, now 3rd SS has its entry map for the first days of battle.
This kind of work has an impact in many other aspects of the game. I have already created 5 of the new stratmap areas, included destratmap maps (for the truth they are 9: one it’s a new stratmap postion; but for stratmap positions splitted in two I have been obliged also to rework the org positions). After have finished the remaining 3, there is the following work to do: - to select and to insert the arrows of the new maps, to reposition the old arrows of the splitted (in two) maps and to renumber all the arrows. - to create new mapnames and to rework some of the old ones - to rework the BTDs and to make a new graphic map with the arrows links (this is just a map for reference, both for modders and players) - to rework the BG names, the BG icons and the SE icons of the 4 changed BGs (I had already reworked BGs, but with the new stratmap positions, 4 of them have changed) - to add the reworked stratmap in all the relative graphic files in both screen.gdg and ccimages.pix files.
Data work it’ stuck to half of the tanks/vehicles (I mean about Data), but azp files relative work is finished.
Considering the new extra work and the remaining original work (and my free time), I think I need something like two other months to release a beta. Thanks to Southernland the mod has completely changed its face, so I’m glad to do an extra work on it.
About Russian planes, the color scheme used in July 1943 is green and black. Just before the german offensive new color schemes were introducted, but the order was effective since 15 July and only for new and repaired planes. The national marking was the red star, usually without outlines, in six positions, wings undersides, left and right sides of tail unit and fuselage (behind the cockpit). Lease-Lend Planes remained in factory colors or the scheme painted by previous users (in the case of second hand ones), with Russian red star applied in the factory or overpainted by the Russian over western allied markings.
The major air units relevant to the mod are:
*2nd Air Army (subordinated to Voronezh Front) *17th Air Army (subordinated to Southwestern Front but supporting 2nd Air Army) *5th Air Army (subordinated to Steppe Front, acting as reserve, with transference of units with the frontline Air Armies during and after Op. Citadel)
Not relevant to the mod: Air Armies acting in the north of salient and long range aviation units.
The aircraft types involved in operations covered by the game: -IL-2 used in ShAP (Assault Aviation Regiment) -Pe-2 used in BAP (Bomber Aviation Regiment) -Yak-1/7b/9 used in IAP (Fighter Aviation Regiment) -La-5 used in IAP (Fighter Aviation Regiment) -A-20 Havoc used in OBAP (Separate Bomber Aviation Regiment) -R-5 & Po-5 biplanes used in NBAP (Night Bomber Aviation Regiment) No Airacobras or Warhawks.
Thanks for the info: about aircraft units and types present in the battle, I already had them. I have chosen Yak-7b, IL-2M and PE-2 aircrafts. About colors: aircrafts (for now) are in green - light brown colors. It should be a "regional" camouflage (soviets had adopted specific camouflages considering the area of combat). Regional camouflages were used at choice (high officer choice, I suppose) instead of the official one, and I have read that this kind of camouflage was popular in south sector of the front. In particular, I'm sure it has been used vastly on IL-2. Having said this, I can easily convert the light brown in black (to obtain black/green official camouflage) on Yak-7b and PE-2, but I would be sure that it must be done (I mean: I would be sure that this regional colors scheme was never used in summer 1943 on these two aircrafts: do you have this kind of info?)
bump Uniform question German and russian crew of vehicles (GAZ AA, M3 halftrack) and armored cars, which kind of uniform they wore? Tank style uniforms or standard uniforms?
Hello: Drizzt: About the aircraft sprites, do you reuse images from previous mods or make new ones? Bye.
Four aircrafts have been created (or taken from other mods: I don’t know) by Waldganger user many years ago, two aircrafts have been replaced (taken them from other mods) by me.
About new stuff created by Waldganger, I’m 100% sure only about tanks/vehicles (tanks and vehicles they are for sure new). Guns seem to me taken from org game or other mods (or maybe are mixed: some are new and some not). Wrecks were from org CC3: this means they were really too different and too small compared to relative tanks/vehicles. I have been obliged to work on them taking some burned wrecks from Stalingrad mod (tanks/vehicles size it’s often identical), reworking some others, and creating some of them starting from the org Waldganger tank/vehicle. This kind of work (an extra work) and the fact that all tanks/vehicles must be reworked about their Data, it has slowed a lot this phase of the Data work. The positive thing it’s that azp files work it proceeds together with tanks/vehicles/guns Data work. I have also added some new tanks/vehicles in Data and removed some others (due to the mod timeline), and graphically corrected few ones (for example, M3 Lee had the 75mm gun placed in the wrong side).
My understanding of the terms are this: a self-propelled gun would be some kind of artillery gun with the main job of lobbing shells with indirect fire at the enemy from fairly long distances. It will only fire directly (Over open sights) in an emergency if surprised by enemy armor for instance. Wespe, Hummel, M7 Priest fall in this category.
An assault gun has a lot better armour protection and is designed to support the infantry in the front lines. - It can fight enemy armour, but this was in many cases not its intented main purpose or job. For example the STUG III started as an infantry support vehicle, but very soon got pressed into AT-work, wich it excelled at. For game purposes I think the vehicles you mention all fall into the assault gun category.
If they should be able to fire while moving? - In reality they would probably avoid it, but for game purposes I think ppl are used to be able to fire with such vehicles on the move, so maybe keep it that way?
Thanks for the point of view ScnelleMeyer. I agree with you. Yes, I will set them able to fire in movement.
Its even a stretch to make ww2 tanks, TDs and assault guns fire realatively accurately while moving - The game does not give enough of a accuracy penalty in my opinion. Even if Self propelled guns like Hummel and Wespe might be techically able to fire while moving I think they should not be able to ingame. Its not what they were designed to do and scoring a hit on anything further than 100m in real life would be pure luck.
Apart from that - thanks for the update. Things are looking good with progress and even more new maps. Thanks!
Thanks for the info! Me too I was oriented in this way considering how they were used, but better to ask (I was not sure about their fire accurancy in movement). Another question:
The dividing line between assault guns and self-propelled guns About tanks destroyers, they can be both top covered or top opened: it's their gun type that it classify them as TDs, but for assault guns/self-propelled guns sometime (for some of them) it's less simple: should I take in consideration only the caliber of their guns? If they are top covered or top opened? Both? To be more concrete: Stuh42, SU122 and SU152 are assault guns or self-propelled guns? (for me both, but if I must to choose: assault guns). Should I set them to fire in movement?
I have found info about the fact that it has entered in production in April (1943), and in summer was already widespread among troops, so I have added it.
Data work update: Weapons and soldiers Data work completed: 95% of them have been reworked/corrected/updated. Several soldiers and weapons added and/or replaced. Working on weapons, I have reworked/added the sounds for them (and reworked/added the weapons icons), so the sound.sfx work it's also completed. Southernland is working on some excellent maps (not only the ones shown here), so, at the end of the work, there will be a good number of new maps. Now I'm going to work on vehicles; after them, teams and forcepools.
Self-propelled guns technical question Even if usually it's not the best option/conduct for them, I know that tanks, tank destroyers and assault guns can fire in movement, but self-propelled guns? They can fire in movement? And even if yes, considering that they are artillery guns, it has sense set them in this way?
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