Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: Mark V Panther tanks in GJS 4.4
As the Allied player, I am just starting to encounter Panther tanks in GJS 4.4 for the first time. They seem like a pretty tough nut to crack for me. The Allies best AT asset, the 17 pdr., does not seem to easily kill them, at least with shots to frontal armor. Does anybody know the coding for these tanks? Are they supposed to be as formidable as the Tiger, or less so? I am assuming that they are coded so that a 17 pdr hit to frontal armor is a low odds proposition.
Does anybody know what the historical method for stopping these tanks was?
The April '06 issue of Military History magazine has an article on the campaign for St. Lo in the American sector of Normandy in early July '44. The article states that on July 11, two regiments of the Lehr, the 901 and 902, launched an attack to relieve American pressure on St. Lo. The article says the 901 was supported by 12 Panthers, while the 902 was supported by 20 Mark IVs. The attack got off to a good start, but the American line was able to absorb the blow, and by the afternoon with the aid of air support the attack was stopped and grievous losses were dealt to the Lehr. The article says 32 German tanks were lost. I don't know if the author means to say all the Panthers were destroyed or not.
My point is the Allies had ways of stopping these Panthers. They really were not free to move around the battlefield killing everything in their path. Maybe the Allies had to rely mostly on heavy arty. and air support. But I would guess some AT fire was involved too.
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:57 am Post subject: mmm
definitely rear and flank attacks from close range.
getting into this position is of course another story.
Forget words,actions will show your true ambitions!The Battlefield,In many cases, the terrain of a battlefield can be the best resource a commander has. A clump of trees, an abandoned house, or a drainage ditch can all be powerful tools in the right hands
strange as it may seem i find a piat effective on panthers if u can get a side shot from close range...immobilisation after 1 or 2 shots... the 17 pounder i prefer from a long shot on side or rear then immediatly place in ambush mode if you have good cover then fire again while panther spins looking for source... of course u wont catch many panthers from close range if properly supported with assault troops or scouts... arty can immobilize panthers quiet effectively, but they are a source of concern,,, the other alternative if playing a gc is to let them rampage thru maps and bgs,, concentrate every oppertunity you have to slaughter their support troops.. eventually they will be left blinded by lack of support...
i have a 2 for one rule (3 for one is even better) when it comes to the panthers in GJS. Allways open fire on a panther with at least two tanks (prefer one sherman from a distance to "harrass" and a 17pd to come in for the flank shot while jerry is busy), another point is the rear armour.
On some maps i actually deploy my guns facing the wrong way! So that when the panthers inevitably overrun your position- the last thing they expect is a rear facing 6pounder!
Come on Deshrex,You say they are simulated more powerful than were.
But I think they were even more powerful than are in GJS.
As Cpt_Rio said,Thay have sloped armor and their frontal armor is 110mm
while Tiger's is 100mm.And dont forget that ,when we are talking about
"Panther",In fact we are talking about the best medium tank of WWII and
probably one of the best tanks of WWII.
They were "Panthers"
Women are like flowers, I appreciate their beauty and fragrance without picking them off the branch, then I continue on to the next flower
Come on Deshrex,You say they are simulated more powerful than were.
But I think they were even more powerful than are in GJS.
As Cpt_Rio said,Thay have sloped armor and their frontal armor is 110mm
while Tiger's is 100mm.And dont forget that ,when we are talking about
"Panther",In fact we are talking about the best medium tank of WWII and
probably one of the best tanks of WWII.
They were "Panthers"
But the Panter only hade a 75gun, the Tiger hade a 88... I'm not an expert but that sure make a diference for me.
well actually both correct... the tiger could kill faster thus reducing returning fire.. the panther could sustain more damage and kill a little slower... pretty well equal but the panther was the evolveing choice for its better design... but lets not forget that quanity ie: the sherman... lowest of the low... beat quality the panther and its predecessors...
But the Panter only hade a 75gun, the Tiger hade a 88... I'm not an expert but that sure make a diference for me.
The Panther's main gun was a 75 mm Rheinmetall KwK 42 L/70 with 79 rounds supported by two MG 34 machine guns. 75 mm was not a particularly large calibre for the time. Nonetheless, the Panther's gun was one of the most powerful tank guns of WWII, due to the large propellant charge and the long barrel, which gave it a very high muzzle velocity. The flat trajectory also made hitting targets much easier, since aiming was less sensitive to range. The 75 mm gun actually had more penetrating power than the 88 mm gun of the Tiger I, although not of the Tiger II.
The Panther was vunerable to flank and rear shots, the armour on later marks were increased but overall the Panther was one of the outstanding designs developed during WW2.
Come on Deshrex,You say they are simulated more powerful than were.
But I think they were even more powerful than are in GJS.
As Cpt_Rio said,Thay have sloped armor and their frontal armor is 110mm
while Tiger's is 100mm.And dont forget that ,when we are talking about
"Panther",In fact we are talking about the best medium tank of WWII and
probably one of the best tanks of WWII.
They were "Panthers"
Yep you'r right on that !
The Tiger just hade a 88 gun, the panter a 75, but I guesse we can destroy most of the tank with that.
Historic: with planes and arty and sometimes pure attrition
Multiplayer: attrition (3 to 1 rule)
Against AI: Hang back and wait for it to do something stupid, won't take too long.
Historically, the Panthers were almost always heavily outnumbered, low on fuel, and crews were exhausted. In the game, a few German BGs can field about as many Panthers as the Allies have Shermans or Cromwells, which makes it very difficult. Cutting off the BG helps...a little.
I dunno about everyone else but u put 5 panthers together with at least 1 halftrack as bait and some recon infantry, you can pretty much drive right through anything allies have!
Thank you all;
I pleasured of your expertized remarks.
You right aikmen,In equal situation your suggested formation can beat any
Allied Battle groups. :
I hope we have more conversations like this.
With my best Regards.
Women are like flowers, I appreciate their beauty and fragrance without picking them off the branch, then I continue on to the next flower
Hi All, read with interest your remarks... it seems none of you have directly mentioned the most obvious advantage you have against tanks... terrain. You get your panthers into a build up area... a few of those 17pdr looking down the road with piats watching the approaches and maybe a tank, humber or something to deal with infantry... I have more success keeping panthers at bay using the allied infantry BGs in built up areas than any other method... and so much for piats... nothing more satisfying than a piat kill but overall I use them more as a scare tactic than a real tank killer. Several times I've let loose 6-12 piat shots from above and close range on a panther with little or no effect. Then other times one shot at almost full range on the piat and not only does it hit its target (as we all know pretty rare at range with a piat) and lucky me, boom, up goes the big cat.
I can't remember which map it was but I have kept panthers at bay in a stale mate knocking off 1 a battle where I can (2 if I'm lucky) for days and days while my other forces push through weaknesses in the line and flank, flank flank.
On the strat map or in the battle, I say flank the panthers!
Final word, never underestimate the power of flame against any tank...
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: great replies
Thank you everyone for the great replies.
I certainly agree with the school of thought that says the Panther was the best medium tank design of the war.
I guess the Panther was able to easily destroy the Sherman in most contests as long they were head-on. According to Max Hastings' book on Normandy (p.146), the 75 mm KwK 42 gun could penetrate 118 mm armor at 1000 yards, and of course the Sherman had only 76 mm frontal armor. The 75 mm gun of the Sherman, meanwhile, could only penetrate 74 mm armor at 100 yards (p.189). I don't have any info on the upgunned 76 mm Sherman.
Hastings says the Panther had the same 100 mm frontal armor of the Tiger I, but less side armor, with 45 mm for the one and 80 mm for the other. So the basic Sherman has some small hope only if it can get a side or rear shot in on the Panther.
But as far as the 17 pdr goes, the story is entirely different. Here are the specs as Hastings gives them on p. 205. These numbers are for the towed version of the gun, but I assume the numbers are the same for the Firefly and Achilles. The 17 pdr could penetrate 149 mm armor at 100 yds, 140 mm at 500 yds, 130 mm at 1000 yds.
I don't know how the coding for the 17 pdr is done in this game, but history suggests that for the ranges involved in GJS, the Panthers and Tigers really should have to worry about 17 pdr fire!
Another feature of the German tanks that writers mention is the slow turret traverse relative to the Sherman.
Slow turret traverse and the power of the 17 pdr were both factors in the demise of the Tiger ace Michael Whittmann on August 8. His small group of 4 Tigers that day was fighting with the 12 SS Hitlerjugend Division to hold open the Falaise Gap. The English troops were from the 33rd Independant Armoured Brigade, and were holding a pocket near the village of St Aignan-de-Cramesnil; the Germans were counterattacking to eliminate the English position. See Gary Simpson's book Tiger Ace, pps. 305-309. (There's lots of great research in this book, with tactical recreations of important tank battles in Whittmann's career, like the fighting in Villers-Bocage.) As The Tigers advanced with their turrets to the left, they came under fire from the right from several Shermans and one Firefly at a range of 800 yds. Using the tactic of 'shoot and scoot' and taking advantage of the slow traverse and of the difficulty the Tiger commanders had of locating the Firefly, this one tank was able to destroy the four Tigers in the space of about 10 to 15 mins. Good luck? Absolutely. But also good fighting backed up by a dangerous gun.
Firstofall sorry for my english. Now.. all u wrote is interesting but we just abandoned a gjs campaign couse of panthers.
with settings elite - elite at day 13 when panzers division storm the line my friend (ally) was forced back of one territory along all the line of fight.
Without hope to stop panthers that advance with their aufklarers as eyes he decided to flee from campaign : (
i played as german and i have to admit that the game was too isi to play.
Are settings incorrect?
Allied will have more powerful units the next days?
p.s.
my opponent was not a noob but my tanks won even when sorraunded!!
The GC is very winnable as Allies. You have to employ specific tactics vs the panthers. Just fighting them head on isnt a good idea... heres how some do it..
- Surround the unit if possible to cut them from supply. If you immobilize a panther in a battle, move on. It has a 60% chance of being removed after battle,
- assign your airstrikes to panthers only,
- gang up on them with infantry guns and tanks; and,
- if a panther has 3 out of 5 crew dead but the tank is still going, move on. The tank will be removed after battle.
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