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Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject: HT Bitches! Reply with quote

HT Bitches!

Yeh, damned….

Open roof HT and such, fire a small calibre bullet at em with a Sub Machine gun and they may often simply die, ..
How realistic is that?

Anyway, been working on it, under construction or at test stage at least.
The HT in FS, will be more like real life HT, if u are at ground level u can’t hurt em with small calibre fire, unit will refuse to fire.
If the infantry is at high story building as 2 story but preferable 3 story, they may get angle to target crew, through open top.

Here is images that explain more then my crappy English.

First and second image a Swedish Kg m/37 at ground level try target a HT, cant do it, black circle.
Cant fire from ground level:

Cant fire from ground level:


Third - 4th Image, Kg m/37 at 3 rd floor, and high angle, can fire down into crew compartment, they have much cover of cause so not even this is easy killing.
Fire at crew:

Fire at crew:


Other angles that limit fire, and alow fire:
Cant fire:

Can fire:

cant fire:





The only really good way to kill HT and open top armoured vehicles is a close up infantry assault. The hand grenades are really useful as in real life, get one in open top and BAM… No more HT… Molotov comes to be really useful to.
The HT is aggressive; they are true bitches, following images ells how a HT assault can take a toll at a Infantry battalion who have not AT, just small calibre.

Testing stage.

Stalky


Last edited by AT_Stalky on Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: Ye Reply with quote

This is a armoured BG, who just used 5 HT, and infantry, no tanks. Just for testing. Swede BG had no AT guns. Just MGs and infantry with HG and Explosives and Molotov. I focused on testing, ehmmm, not winning… LOL

Southern Land made mapp!

Stupid HT coming without infantry!


Ohh coming just behind.. Crap the HT behind fire a 7,5cm HE and its MG n my poor men.


Here come my command team, they have a Molotov and hand grenades!


Uhh confusion --- HT damgaged


HT Killed,


My poor men are demoralized, and the 2 nd HT just move by em, leaving the following Infantry and 3 rd HT to take care of em.


Na, cant target


No, cant target..



Here the HT come with its bad company, achhh


Here come 2 HT and maybe 1-2 infantry units,


The left most HT, had 2 inf team with him, I just spotted the second one.
The left 2 HTs, and infantry seem pleased with there progress and stops assaulting.. (at least for now, I ESC out, soon after this)


Na, maybe one of em go to help out in Left side battle.


Yeh, maybe I groped 6 teams up Right corner, was to much. But the Armoured BG here left a HT up there to guard the teams there, and just fire at any movement. It never moved in it.
Anyway, I see need of my AT rifles, and even Swedes 37mm AT guns will be a wanted! Except they are crap vs Germans tanks. Anyway this is just a test of HT..

Stalky
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Pzt_Mac

Rep: 3.4


PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

This is great, finally the HT will be worth something in battle Smile
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mooxe

Rep: 221.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:58 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I am kind of curious... What was the armour on these HTs and how much amrour can the rifles shooting at them, at ground level penetrate? Is it really realistic to have them not fire at all from ground level? Maybe they should be able to fire but have a low chance of doing anything. Can they throw grenades atleast?


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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:05 am Post subject: Yep Reply with quote

Hi Mooxe

of cose they can through grenades, that’s really effective, take a molotove and it’s the dome for the HT.
If u is at higher ground, or building, u can fire your small calibre weapon down the open top of the vehicle as in real life, and that not good for crew.

As an example of armoured penetration, the Swede 8x63 pprj m/39 cartridge with armoured piercing bullet can at Pb penetrate 8mm at a 500 Brinell ARMOURED plate, the regular cored round is marked as “---“ and will just ricochet or deform… (Source: Skjutlära för armen).

There are questions though, valid such as brought by Lordy4war as he looked on the work I done and comment on it as I worked on it. His main though is the steering vheile, and its possible vonerability to small calibre. That’s tru, I just researching if they have inner solid “flat-proof ring”.

They are made/designed to withstand a small calibre bullet.
Amount of armourer, and slope make it not that likely,
as an example at 60 degrees is *1.3 in effective armourer so that has to be added to figures below to get effective armoure.
251 armoure

Hull armoure :
Front Hull 15mm at 68
Side Hull: 8mm at 55 degrees,
Rear Hull: 8mm at 57 degrees,
Superstructure:
Front Hull 10mm at 57 degrees,
Side Hull: 8mm at 55 degrees,
Rear Hull: 8mm at 57 degrees,

250 armoure

Hull armoure :
Front Hull 18mm at 78 Degrees
Side Hull: 8mm at 60 Degrees
Rear Hull: 8mm at 45 Degrees
Superstructure:
Front Hull 18mm at 60 Degrees
Side Hull: 8mm at 60 Degrees
Rear Hull: 8mm at 35 Degrees
Source: Jentz- Doyle-Chamberlain, Encyclopaedia of Germans Tanks of World war two.

Open fire with small calibre on these vehicles is maybe not that good idea if u are at ground level. Take it out with close infantry assault, Molotov’s, hand grenades, and explosives. Get to a high place, building and whatever and fire down into crew compartment.

Anyway, that work in progress, but I can’t see how a soldier at ground level at 200meter with a, rifle, or MG or sub machine gun can kill a HT… The soldier will end up at the receiving end of that conflict.


Stalk



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Accuracy13

Rep: 0.1


PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding was that half tracks were armored against nearby shell bursts and not much else. The following is from Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War II:
Appendice I German tank armament:
7.92mm MG 13, 34, & 42 (please note this also incudes the 98K Mauser)
Ammunition; Patr SmK
Muzzle velocity; 785 m/s
Penetration of Homogeneous Armour Plate at 30 deg from Vertical in mm
100m; 20mm penetration
500m; 14mm penetration
1000m; 9mm penetration

Also note that the 8mm Mauser cartridge, the 7.62x54 Russ, and the 30 M1 (30-06) US all used similar bullet weights at similar velocities, the Brit .303 is slightly inferior, when compared to the above.
From my own experience shooting both 7.62x51 Nato (.308 Win.) which is a slightly lighter bullet at nearly the same velocity as the 30 M1, as well as the 30-06, I would want more than 8mm of armour between me and the firer.
Half Tracks WERE NOT TANKS. They were never meant to be, no matter how big of gun the Germans stuck on them.

For comparison. Sorry I have to switch to in. standard numbers here.
Also for comparison there are 7000 grains in a pound.
From Sierra Reloading Manual V

8mm Mauser 150gr bullet at 2800 fps, 175gr bullet at 2600 fps
30-60 150gr bullet at 2900 fps, 175gr bullet at 2600 fps
7.62X54 Rus 150gr bullet at 2600 fps, 175gr bullet at 2500 fps

The loads listed above are NOT max loads. Also seirra has a tendency to list loads a little on the light side do to liabilty.

Mass in gr X velocity in fps X velocity in fps x .000002218 = energy in foot pounds.

Energy and the hardness of the projectile is where kenetic energy pentration comes from. There are the figures.

Now from personal experience 8mm of armour at 60 deg will NOT STOP projectiles (FMJ or AP) from the cartridges listed above. While they may have bled off alot of their energy from penetrating armour they have enough left to wound or kill personel, and damage soft equipment.

Anyway there are my $.02 worth. Half tracks were battle taxi's in their infancy, they were not nor were they meant to be tanks. They were meant to get their load of troops through shell (artillary and mortar) fire quickly without taking the casualties that foot mobile troops would. The troops were expected to dismount to fight while the half track would set up in covered overwatch to provide fire support. That is in a perfect world anyway.

Well you all take care.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: Ye Reply with quote

Hi there

I believe you looked at wrong line.
I think u looked at the line below (green), as its the values for 2cm KwK 39 & 38 L/55..... Not 7.92.
2cm projectile weight 12+ times more then the 7,92mm...

If u look at row abow u have the value for the 7,92mm SmK (red), but that's a bullet with Core, not the standard sS round used in rifles and MGs.

Image from Encyclopedia of germans tanks of world war two, page 245:


If we look, we see the red aria, 7.92mm SmK and values of penetration is: 8mm at 100 meter, and 3mm at 500 meter, WITH THE SmK bullet, but thats not the regular bullet......

The regular bullet was the sS Bullet, which would at 100 meter penetrate 5mm of "steel",! How about 500 brinell armoure?


Just as example, the Swede m/42 has never had a killed man in crew compartment from small arms fire. And over the years in UN service they have taken there share of that, though the MG gunners have been killed, as they are a bit exposed…


As for kinetic energy its "weight in g" * m/s2 / 2000 = j
Example: standard Mauser MG “8 mm sS bullet” 12,8g * 755 * 755 /2000= 3648.16 j
But that’s just not fully aplayable to armoured penetration is it, as the tip of projectile is important in that, as is the core material and treatment. So if u have a led cored bullet, it will “splatt” and be a nice “led painting” on a hard armoured plate, if u have a to hard tip, it will crack the core or even ricochet the whole projectile. The projectiles design tip - core it self is important.

Gr is one thing and g is another, so when a 2cm bullet weight 148g, its not same as a bullet weight 148gr, its 15,38 times differance, 148g its 2276Gr




Stalky
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Accuracy13

Rep: 0.1


PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I did read the wrong line sorry. However I did state when I went from grams (metric g) to grains (US standard gr) and the formula I listed was for energy in foot pounds and is correct. Also most US troops in WWII carried some, not all, AP ammo with them at all times. Usually a couple of Garand en bloc clips worth. That is from everyone I have talked to and nearly everything I have read.
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