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Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

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Should captured vehicles be available for use by BGs?
Yes
51%
 51%  [ 22 ]
No
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
Yes, so long as they're not damaged
41%
 41%  [ 18 ]
No, if they have sustained damage
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 43

BobbyDazzler

Rep: 1.1


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:21 pm Post subject: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

Have been playing close combat for 9 years now and I have always had the niggling desire to know why you cant use captured vehicles during a campaign??? I have always been aware that you can lose abandoned or imobilized vehicles to your enemy if they remain in their area of control at the end of the battle and vice versa. However why is it that you cannot use them in the following battle. I suggets a new mod that enables ones BG to equip itself with captured vehicles and for them to appear as new acquisitions in the force pool menu. I am on day 15 of the Less Panthers Mod in Wacht am Rhein and I have must have captured in excess of 50 vehicles during the campaign, none of which I can use!!!

Thought people???
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Priapus

Rep: 18.6
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to Captured Vehichles? Reply with quote

Don't the last 2 options mean the same thing?
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mooxe

Rep: 221.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to Captured Vehichles? Reply with quote

That would be fun. Here are some points to ponder...

There would have to be limits though on how many captured vehicles a unit could maintain due to fuel, parts and knowledge of how to operate and maintain.

If any vehicle sustains damage while in action as a captured vehicle it should be removed after the battle since there would be no parts to fix it.

If a BG with captured vehicles moves while out of fuel supply all captured vehicles should be removed from the bg.

If a German unit captures a Sherman, should a German tank crew give up thier tank to crew the Sherman? And vice versa for Allies. What happens to the tank they gave up?

Can a non-mechanized battlegroup capture and crew vehicles?

Should ammo be resupplied?

What about AT Guns?

There is atleast one mod where captured vehicles are included in the enemy battlegroups, I think its Karelia? Not sure...


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BobbyDazzler

Rep: 1.1


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to Captured Vehichles? Reply with quote

all very good points to consider mooxe, especially the one about ammo resupply and finding a crew to man the vehicle. as we know the germans and russians did capture and equip enemy vehicles with their own calibre weapons and mgs, though I could suggest that if you were say the germans and were on the offensive, say in wacht am rhein, you would innevitably capture ammo for the vehicle as the BG's progress further into enemy territory, as is done with fuel. The infantry in close combat resort to using enemy weapons when circumstances require. As for the crew problem I suppose its reasonable to suggest that a new crew could be found to man the vehicle within a BG. On this point its worth us all noting that in CC5 and later editions, when a tank/gun is destroyed and the crew escapes, albeit with casualties (or not if lucky), you lose the crew from your BG as a fieldable unit in your forcepool, correct me if im wrong but in CC3 you were able to retain crews with casualties after the vehichle/gun is destroyed for future use when re equppied with a vehicle..
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BobbyDazzler

Rep: 1.1


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to Captured Vehichles? Reply with quote

oh point i forgot to mention, this idea of using captured vehicles would probably apply almost exclusively to the germans, I ve not heard of or seen any records of the americans or british, using captured german vehicles above anything other than the occasional staff cars, certainly not guns/tanks. Although there are several instances of captured vehicles from most theatres being used by the germans. Esp in the later campaigns, i.e. wacht am rhein, battle of berlin etc

I have some military books showing the russians fielding captured MK IV's and Vs in 1944 following bagration and the capture of army group centre's equipment.
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 98.5
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=147432
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

The "captured Panther" in the link above is an ausf. G, belonging to 4th Coldstream Guards, 6th Guards Tank Brigade in the Low Countries, winter 1944-45.

According to my book about the Panther-tank it "...was photographed on several occasions, notably in action alongside Churchills of 'A' Sqn. of this battalion in the Maastricht area..."

-Just to let you know.


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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CSO_Talorgan

Rep: 72.5
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

At Pegasus Bridge the Paras captured a 50 mm AT gun and pressed it into immediate service. However, they were top grade troops, high on initiative, who may even have had basic training on enemy weapons.

The Germans in 1941 and the Israelis in 1967 captured large amounts of enemy materiel which they were able to adopt and reuse, but as far as I can make out this was not an immediate reuse. Captured equipment would have been collected together, organised, cannibalised and refitted before being issued to front line units. Arrangements would have to have been made for spare parts and ammunition. IIRC the Germans manufactured ammunition for thier captured T 34s and the Israelis practically rebuilt their captured T 64s.

This is beyond the realms of Close Combat as we know it.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

Quote:
and the Israelis practically rebuilt their captured T 64s.

where did they get T-64? Smile
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ronson

Rep: 36.7
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

Quote:
where did they get T-64?


I think Talorgan means T62.......the Israelites just added on the standard finders fee!  Rolling Eyes   LOL

Seriously though they did capture a large number of the T62 and reworked them into the Tiran6 MBT for later use by the IDF.
I believe that the T64 was a developement of the T62 and was never used outside the Group Soviet Forces Germany, some do say that it was a very good tank outclassing the far more numerous and cheaper to produce T72, and it was due to the advanced specs. that it was kept for home use only.

However basically Talorgan is correct in what he says in regard to captured equipment being centralised before re issue. In the British army its frowned upon to go around picking up bits and pieces of enemy kit, this task is usually undertaken by specialist engineers. The reason given being that this kit could so easily be booby trapped.

As for the Guards Panther?......well thats the same outfit that mounted Typhoon rockets on Shermans at one time Razz ......
Quote:
The Brigade of Guards is a law unto itself


Cheers
Ronson


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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

Quote:
I think Talorgan means T62...

I think Talorgan means T54  Razz

Quote:
I believe that the T64 was a developement of the T62

actually it was brand new design developed by different factory Smile.

Quote:
some do say that it was a very good tank outclassing the far more numerous and cheaper to produce T72,

yeah, there are different opinions about T64..
initially T72 was basically T64A with new engine, new auto-loading sytem and new ventillation system.
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Tippi-Simo

Rep: 53.1
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

That would be a cool thing to have.

pvt_Grunt wrote (View Post):
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=147432  

Thanks mate. Indeed, very interesting topic. And one picture tells you more than 1000 words or something..


"Du talar dalig svenska, men du är bra i sängen"
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CSO_Talorgan

Rep: 72.5
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
I think Talorgan means T62...

I think Talorgan means T54


Talorgan clearly needs to go and swot up on Soviet tanks.

Embarassed
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Bungarra

Rep: 137.3
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:55 am Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

With Rommels swift advance across the desert he surrounded the port of TOBRUK. Strategically it was vital to Rommels push toward Egypt as it saved 100's of miles of resupply lines. Left to its defence was the Australian 9th division with a scattering of British artillery and tank crews. John Johnson descibes what famously became known as "The Bush Artillery". from Peter Fitzsimons book Tobruk

"Lots of ordinary soldiers, cooks, bottle washers, drivers and all the rest decided to capitalise on the fact that the town was chock a block full of captured abandoned armaments, mostly 40mm anti tank guns with a few heavier field guns. With trial & error they learned how to sight and fire these weapons even going so far as to mount them on trucks for better manouverability." They played a vital part in the defence of Tobruk.

The Aussies obviously were not alone in the quick use of captured ordinance.

So yes a good point on the manning of captured tanks and guns, Men could be found to man them very quickly.


You know if you don't live it.... You can't give it.
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 98.5
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:50 am Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

The 83rd Cavalry division got the name Rag Tag Circus because of the motley collection of captured vehicles they used when they raced across Germany in the last weeks of the war. One story even mentions a cement mixer!  I've been looking on google for more info, there's some facts but not too much yet.

We need to mod the "Captured Cement Mixer" into TLD immediately  Twisted Evil
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Ivan_Zaitzev

Rep: 56.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

CSO_Talorgan wrote (View Post):
At Pegasus Bridge the Paras captured a 50 mm AT gun and pressed it into immediate service. However, they were top grade troops, high on initiative, who may even have had basic training on enemy weapons.


Nope, they didn't knew how to operate Artillery, just small weapons.
They learned on the spot when Charlie Gardner pressed the fire button.


The real Close Combat starts when you are out of ammo.
Have you hugged your AT Gun today?
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iDot

Rep: 15.8


PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

Bungarra wrote (View Post):
With Rommels swift advance across the desert he surrounded the port of TOBRUK. Strategically it was vital to Rommels push toward Egypt as it saved 100's of miles of resupply lines. Left to its defence was the Australian 9th division with a scattering of British artillery and tank crews. John Johnson descibes what famously became known as "The Bush Artillery". from Peter Fitzsimons book Tobruk



Dont forget the Kiwis Wink
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Ixe

Rep: 0.6


PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

Ok back to subject, what happens to captured vehicles?

And question 2: Is it possible to ad them to a force pool in game? disregarding all the "rules" that should apply.

In older discussions it was explained to me that it was not possible and could only be done by saving, exiting the game and then edditing the force pool manually.
But back then only CC5 was out.

I must say capturing vehicles would be a real extra. It invites for new tactics too where it could become your goal to reenforce your exausted battlegroup with a nice tank of your enemies. Maybe luring tanks to a vp and then try to pressurise it massively so they abandon the tank.

Nice to see that the poll has 100% in favour of being able to use captured equipment.

Maybe it could be done by making it possible to man "wrecks" of abandoned vehicles with vehicle crews stripped of their original vehicle. The game does remember where to place real wrecks on the map when you reenter after former battle.

In real battle I quess guns where the most commonly used captured equipment, until they were out of ammo or had to be transported.

I hope some modders get inspired
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 98.5
votes: 5


PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

Ixe wrote (View Post):
Ok back to subject, what happens to captured vehicles?


Oh yes, the subject - thats right.

I would love to see abandonded tanks able to be used by other troops. The upside would be an extra tank or gun, the downside would be the tank is probably damaged, which is why the original crew bailed out anyway. But, as for repairing tanks and returning them to the forcepool - I dont think this is realistic in the short time frame of a CC5 game. Anyway, why would the Allies bother with a damaged Marder when they had a traffic jam of Shermans and M-10s gathering on the beach?
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CSO_Talorgan

Rep: 72.5
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: What happens to captured vehicles? Reply with quote

Didn't CC III include captured T 34s for the Germans?
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