Welcome to Close Combat Series
  Login or Register Home  ·  Downloads  ·  Forums  ·  Combat Camera  ·  Help  

  Survey
Close Combat for iPad

Great idea!
Not for me



Results
Polls

Votes 538
Comments: 6

  Shout Box!!

Only registered users can shout. Please login or create an account.

  Main Menu
Articles & News  
    Help
    Player`s News
    Site News
    Multiplayer
    Terrain Challenge
    Boot Camp
Community  
    Forums
    Downloads
    Combat Camera
    MOOXE @ Youtube
    TIK @ Youtube
    Statistics
Members  
    Private Messages
    Your Account
    Logout

  Donations

Total: $0.00
Goal: $30.00
Difference: $30.00

Find our site useful? Make a small donation to show your support.



Search for at
Close Combat Series Advanced Search


Goto page Previous  1, 2
 Author
Message
 
pvt_Grunt

Rep: 50.3
votes: 5


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

It also depends on whether you're playing a single battle or a campaign.

In a single battle you dont worry about capturing land as much as VL's and killing so a small map is best. If it's a campaign you can plan on having 2 or 3 battles on the same map, so you can go slower and take the map in stages, VL's are less important because victory points dont matter. Attrition is more important in a campaign so you can capture the map on the strategic level.

Personally I dont like the huge maps, a godd 3000 by 3000 pixels map with lots of cover like hills forest or cities is big enough.

Favorite map - Carentan or Bastogne
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Profetkaninen

Rep: 0.5


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

As an example have a look at some maps for the 501st US airborne regiments landings on D-day.

First an idea of what 501st looks like. As far as I can figure 501st this day consisted of: 3 battalions, each having 4 companies. I think a company is a good size of a unit to take a map in CC.

An infantry (or airbourne?) company would in CC consist of something like:

3 - bazooka teams
2 -  30cal machinegun teams
9 - rifle squads
4 - platoon HQ
1 - Company HQ

First we have corps beachhead at the end of DD:


The green box marks a pretty standard CC map with size of 500x500 meters. The red box is 501st 1st and 2nd (3rd battalion was reserves to the north, se map above) companies operation area shown in next map



The green box are notably larger but still just a tiny fraction of the area where 501st conducts it's operations this first day. In CC5 the red box consists of only one map and 501st is a unit on the map and moves as a whole. I'm arguing that changing the scope of the game to perhaps battalion level would render more strategic options. This means splitting each CC5 "strategic" unit into 4 and effectivly reducing the area of a grand campaign to 1/4?

Consider this last image where a suggestion of standard battle maps at important locations is placed on the last map:



The blue boxes shows the placing of standard size (500x500m) battlemaps with more network like connections in red. The green lines could be direction of artillery support (from high ground) provided the brigade has placed a company with artillery there. Many interesting strategic possibilities could be introduced at the strategic level such as artillery companies, anti air companies, encircling etc.. But the point is that the battlemaps size stay roughly the same.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
CSO_Talorgan

Rep: 25.6
votes: 1


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

Profetkaninen wrote (View Post):
I'm arguing that changing the scope of the game to perhaps battalion level would render more strategic options.


What about taking it even further, to company level?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
schrecken

Rep: 192
votes: 15


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:49 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

Why not an 8 x 8 map grid with maps accurate to scale

What's that approx range 16 - 64 square Km (depending on map sized used)


Maybe then bring in BG's and Fpool to accurately depict that strategic (operational) map size.


It's something I've discussed with a couple of ppl previously but never gained traction.



GameRanger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website GameRanger Account
 
pagskier

Rep: 25


PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

Nice post the one with maps
I've played only CC2 and since 2 days CC5  and The longuest day( I broke my CC2 CD)
But that's what CC2 was about why it felt to have a good following between the map


As for map size, I think it depends of the situation, like afrika long range desert map where battle were fought long distance
I don't mind seeing huge maps, since like htat you can use the 88mm use and use terrain wisely to subsract from AT gun fire and attack ennemy forces at right place
while normandy/eastern europ/urban maps need to be smaller because of the number of unit they use.

That is what matter the best, like the causeway map in the longuest day, the nature of map needed a quite big long map,
while playing an african map I would mind to see a 2km/3km map where I could set 88m that could shot a tank in 1/2 of the map
since it's wide open terrain, a bigger map is needed, while in close quarter smaller is good because you need a good concentration of troop to fight.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
southern_land

Rep: 73
votes: 11


PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:36 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

One  concept i played with a few years ago was a cc5 strat map of the Great war where each map was connected to the next ie there was no dead space... effectively the whole strat map would have covered maybe a couple square kilometres while the forces would have been strictly division vs division

the main problem as far as i could see was i wanted more than one entry/exit map between maps

example: on map A you could go to map B via VL Nth middle or south... which of course is impossible with CC.  

the other option was to have the maps offset like a brick wall

A similar idea would be viable in a seige or urban situation... Berlin, Stalingrad and the like... maybe even the pacific?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
 
emifisa

Rep: 7.6


PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

For me the Small map is for Infantry battle, and Large for Tank battle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
 
CSO_Talorgan

Rep: 25.6
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

southern_land wrote (View Post):
the other option was to have the maps offset like a brick wall


Anyone for hexagons?!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
jockthesock

Rep: 17.3


PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

Even in real life Armies never have enough forces.

Large maps:
               Continues line of defence not possible.
               Able to disperse forces so reduce casualties from bombardment.
               Scope for attacker to infiltrate, or defender to carry out fighting withdrawal.

Small maps:
              Opposite of above.

The map size comes second to the terrain on the map. Most maps have key positions that must be taken/held at all costs. Strong points, high ground, and VLs that cover supply or escape.

Balanced maps work best. An example of bad maps can be found in CCIV where many of the maps have the Germans attacking into a new map, start off in the houses, and defending Americans are out in the open. Not even the Americans defended towns by digging in, in the open to the rear of defensive positions.

Many maps in the CCV mods have elements like bunkers, wire, trenches, and mines so badly placed that they are useless. Pretty, but useless. The small bunkers in the Merville battery, can fire 360 degrees and have a clear line of sight over the the similar bunker next to them. Pretty, but unrealistic.

Just for interest, next time your are out walking in a flat bare arsed field, lie down. That's the view from a trench. Now you know why a little bit of high ground is important.

So size doesn't matter, just keep it real.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
diggin.robat

Rep: 25.8
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

southern_land wrote (View Post):
One  concept i played with a few years ago was a cc5 strat map of the Great war where each map was connected to the next ie there was no dead space... effectively the whole strat map would have covered maybe a couple square kilometres while the forces would have been strictly division vs division
[...]



Hi southern land! Did you had plans to make a CC5 Great War Mod?

Some years ago our old GW-Team had a CC5 Cambrai 1917 Mod in mind, for which I designed the strat map. As an allied offensive the starting map were retangular with a approx. width of a WWI battalion frontage. The BGs were thought to follow their historical routes. After breaking the trench lines the maps were growing bigger as was the operational space a battalion had to cover. Sadly, this project was shelved.
Basic idea was indeed to connect the maps directly, which in the end had meant less operitional freedom for the player.


cheers

diggin


GW modding team
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website GameRanger Account
 
ssa2204

Rep: 10.5


PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

One problem I have with small maps is that when you are move onto a new map and the enemy is defending, often your space allowed to deploy is simply too small and confined. What ends up happening is your armor/guns/vehicles are way too easily destroyed by enemy guns or hidden tanks. Larger maps tend to insure much more movement.

Disadvantage to a really large map is if you have no armor, the game can move very slowly. I have had maps where my forces were weakened to the point I could not really move much. As the enemy just sat there as well the game was never ending.

However on a smaller map this is less often the case as you  have a more defined area where the enemy may be located.

Personally I can tolerate a small map so long as I do not deploy in a space that easily allows the enemy to pick off half my team within 30 seconds. On a certain CC5 mod I am currently playing, this happens to be the case and it is very frustrating to say the least.

I think it comes down to small maps = good for infantry, large maps = good for armor. Armor on a small map is just pointless some as there is no place to move.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

I liked battles on big maps in CCMT (in multiplayer, of course). They allow much more tactics.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

Large Maps:

Pro's: More room for manouvre, so less wham bam thank you ma'am...
Con's: Less challanging AI performance, particularly the tendency to camp on VL's.  Can get tedious on a longer timer.

Small Maps:

Pro's: Better AI performance, and more 'close' combat.  That's what this game is about?
Con's:  Can't think of much.  Maybe less room to manouvre.

One qualification:

Big or small, the AI performs better on the whole with fewer VL/s...

p.s. Mooxe, if you haven't already, how about a Plyers debate on the Timer?  Short/Long and relative merits...?  What's the 'best' (AI/H2H).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
 
pagskier

Rep: 25


PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

I really enjoy the causeway maps

They don't have a lot of witdh but have a loth of depth
for long battle where you can fall back but don't keep walking around looking for ennemies

Similar maps with a bit more width would be even nice for other kind of battle Bretteville would be a good example
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 7.5
votes: 6


PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

I like some maps of every size, but I think the medium ones are the best, example, CC3 maps and some CC4 maps. The perfect map size for me, and one of my favorites was the Kursk one in the Demo of CC3, other I like a lot is Foy in CC4 but my all time favorite is Schijndel Road from CC2.

Huge CCM and CCMT maps are not good for AI but they are impressive nevertheless. They must be great to play in multiplayer 3v3.


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message GameRanger Account
 
CSO_Linebacker

Rep: 5.9
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

I wish I would have finished the CC5 battle of Betio. Scale-wise, Betio could fit on 1 giant CCM sized map, but I outlined breaking it down to 44 maps for the CC5 strat...I think the biggest map was about 1440X1440.  I would have liked to have duked it out on that baby


'If it does not have a gun, it cannot be fun'
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
platoon_michael

Rep: 31
votes: 24


PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

I wish you would have finished "Race for Bastogne"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message GameRanger Account
 
platoon_michael

Rep: 31
votes: 24


PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Map Sizes Reply with quote

What makes it even worse is you said you lost everything in a computer crash.
Those gorgeous Vehicles,great looking maps.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message GameRanger Account
 
 
Post new topicReply to topic printer-friendly view Close Combat Series Forum Index -> The Mess
Goto page Previous  1, 2


 
   
 


Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum




Forums ©





In August of 2004, Zappi, Homba, Bambam887, RedScorpion and MOOXE all pitched
in to create this Close Combat site. I would to thank all the people who have visited and
found this site to thier liking. I hope you had time to check out some of the great Close Combat
mods and our forums. I'd also like to thank all the members of our volunteer staff that have
helped over the years, and all our users that contributed to this site!