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platoon_michael

Rep: 47.6
votes: 25


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

That COI thread looks almost like the WAR thread. Laughing
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Dundradal wrote (View Post):
Bottom of this page has a link to CC torrents on Piratebay.

Not all on pirate bay is illegal. The link go there because u may download mods from there, and in that way relive the stress on the limited bandwhide on this site. Though i belive thats no problem no more, maybe Mooxe can validate that.

Dundradal wrote (View Post):
Information I was not aware of...that's certainly unfortunate. I took some time and read some of the posts over there and do see what you are saying. Instead of being supportive, the developers mock users lack of knowledge at times. It was really sad to see and read. Although I did see glimmers of hope in there as well...


indeed, Puts things in perspective doesn’t it. Though most horrible things they posted is since deleted. The thing u see them say here and the constant provocations you see here they already practiced and developed at CSO years ago.
So its well rehearsed and all in the party line.
One wonder whats "positive" with killig the CC3- CSO community, just becose the CSO community have issues with there product?


Dundradal wrote (View Post):
By positive, I meant relations that are constructive, looking at CSO, it appears that the admins don't know how to ignore harsh criticism and focus on what is good and what they need to improve. Instead, I see both positive and negative comments over there. I think they just need to be told some old advice, "Don't take it personally, but take it seriously" when it comes to people's thoughts.

see answer abow.


Dundradal wrote (View Post):
See now why are you trying to incite me here? I was expressing what I thought...I see a link that goes to Piratesbay...did I make a mistake? If so please tell me.

Not at all, I was more amazed about all the hm "flammable" words used, as in pirating, judging, illegal, etc..
Amazed as in if you read yer post abow one more time, pretending that I posted that in your wing command site.
Amazed in that way.


Dundradal wrote (View Post):
Instead of engaging in a friendly discussion right off the bat you are trying to anger and entice me.

Not at all, well, se answer abow.


Dundradal wrote (View Post):
And nice to meet you and hopefully we can maybe play a game or two soon!

Hoping so.
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Dundradal

Rep: 27.9
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Not all on pirate bay is illegal. The link go there because u may download mods from there, and in that way relive the stress on the limited bandwhide on this site. Though i belive thats no problem no more, maybe Mooxe can validate that.


Ahh see I did not know that. Thanks!


Quote:
indeed, Puts things in perspective doesn’t it. Though most horrible things they posted is since deleted. The thing u see them say here and the constant provocations you see here they already practiced and developed at CSO years ago.
So its well rehearsed and all in the party line.
One wonder whats "positive" with killig the CC3- CSO community, just becose the CSO community have issues with there product?


I understand your sentiments now. It is unfortunate people feel the need to act that way, although I can sort of understand...you pour your soul into something and then people attack it...however in most cases that this occurs it's a few jerks...being jerks....here people have legitimate complaints and they ignore them. If they have access to the source code, then it shouldn't be too hard to fix the bugs...just need some testers to compile them and then confirm them fixed.



Quote:
Not at all, I was more amazed about all the hm "flammable" words used, as in pirating, judging, illegal, etc..
Amazed as in if you read yer post abow one more time, pretending that I posted that in your wing command site.
Amazed in that way.


Ahh I see. I was using those words because I wasn't sure...hence why I specifically said I wouldn't judge...because I didn't know. Hence why I was looking for clarification. Thanks.

And a quick note, it's not my WC site, I'm just a longtime member. Sorry if there was any confusion.


Quote:
Hoping so.


Well glad to know we were on the same page. Sometimes it's hard to understand someone's intent with text, no matter how clear you make it.

No hard feelings...  Very Happy


"To you, we are deeply grateful, and release what little hold we might, as Durandal, have had on your soul.
Go."
- Final Terminal Message, Marathon Infinity
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mooxe

Rep: 214.8
votes: 25


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Not hosting mod torrents here anymore. At the time I was doing the torrents TPB keps having legal issues and the site would be up and down so I stopped since it became too much trouble. Still on my back burner tho.


Join Discord for technical support and online games.
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Tejszd

Rep: 130.8
votes: 19


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 2:10 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Hopefully the silent majority is still out there.

Most people posting are usually at either end of the spectrum on their opinion of  re-releases. But then you will never please everyone.

If you asked people what they wanted in the re-releases which MUST be done to get the source code, based on what has been posted before, then what would you do with it?

Some want a straight re-release which is backwards compatible (maybe fixed a few bugs) while some others want new features (since the developer has access to the source code) but that breaks backwards compatibility.

Based on what the developer has done even they have gone back and forth.

COI  - very close to a straight re-release though it is not backwards compatible. This pissed off a lot of people as they thought it would be more than it was.
CCMT - very close to CCM (US marines version for training) which gave a lot of new features but also removed a lot of features (ex. any sort of campaign game).
WAR - an enhanced version of CC4 not backwards compatible.
TLD - an enhanced version of CC5 not backwards compatible.

For me TLD is the best CC version with its new features and the old CC5 bugs fixed. Yes, it does have some of its own bugs which hopefully will get fixed but even with them it has more features and stability than CC5. The big downside though is all the great old CC5 mods do not work on it....
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

OK Great  Exclamation

But since, you have converted Meuse to run with TLD, can you estimate how many hours that project required.  Idea

If so, can we see what it would take to convert some other mod, like Stalingrad to TLD.   Question
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

CSO_Linebacker wrote (View Post):
[quote=]
Graphics and data is easy to fix and it doesn't require paying anyone. The main financial problem are engine updates and removing the engine bugs.


That is hilarious.  I never thought about how easy it is, when I put almost 1000 hours into WAR graphics.  And data being easy...that's always how mods have ended up like crap.  No effort put into the data.[/quote]

Gee, I think Therion, was mainly addressing the issue of financing.

Regarding the skill required to do a job, its hard to imagine putting 1000 hours into anything. I wasn't there, so I wont comment futher, only to say that if these hours represented work and not simply duration, some eyebrows must have been raised.
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southern_land

Rep: 150.9
votes: 14


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
OK Great  Exclamation

But since, you have converted Meuse to run with TLD, can you estimate how many hours that project required.  Idea

If so, can we see what it would take to convert some other mod, like Stalingrad to TLD.   Question


Pure speculation here: but in an ideal world if you were to move say Stalingrad to TLD would you create more maps or stick with CC5 versions 43?  Same question applies to anyone else.  Personnaly I love the enhanced strat map and the greater flexibility it provides and more CC5 mods have a selection of maps that could be adapted to suit.  The principle ones that would prove difficult are Stalingrad (summer) and GJS with the slightly altered colour pallettes
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

OK,

If the Stalingrad (Summer) maps are problematic, then how about the Winter ones? There are a lot of those.

Can't someone with previous experinece with the conversion, itemize and publish the required steps?

Furthermore, couldn't a straigt conversion (without enhancements) be accomplished first?

Once operational, then a second project to add additonal content, could be contemplated.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

CSO_Linebacker wrote (View Post):
[quote=]
Graphics and data is easy to fix and it doesn't require paying anyone. The main financial problem are engine updates and removing the engine bugs.


That is hilarious.  I never thought about how easy it is, when I put almost 1000 hours into WAR graphics.  And data being easy...that's always how mods have ended up like crap.  No effort put into the data.[/quote]
I meant "easy" in comparison to the engine stuff which in present conditions seems to be unachievable. And I refered mostly to the financing side. After all Shrecken said that almost everyone who work on re-releases are unpaid volunteers.
Graphics in WaR look great - much better than in CC4 and CC5 IMHO, but the engine still leaves a lot be wished and still lacks mayor upgrades.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Dundradal wrote (View Post):
Something like that you need to campaign the developer for. While at times Matrix drives me up the wall, they also have a gaming niche I absolutely love. If the company receives enough emails, phone calls, etc from PAYING customers (that's key here...and maybe a reason some here feel that the developer has told them to piss off...would you want to support a community that on the one hand is supporting your work but on the other distributing the old product for free? (Which you can still find and purchase online if you look) I can understand why at times the developer might not want to update the game if they feel that the community will just stick it to them. Now this might not be the case, I'm just posing an example.

Nah. The main problem is that the Matrix decided that buying the rights to CC was a big enough cost and decided that they'll release modded games with small engine tweaks for full prices of new games.
They overhype the new releases like they were a second coming of Christ (despite that they didn't want to put enough money into development.).
The most grotesque it was when they have released CCMT and wrote about how it has a "Accurate and realistic modern equipment modeling" and
"Accurately depicting modern tactical warfare and it’s challenge" in product description despite that the data is wrong and the engine doesn't simulate modern equipment (ATGMs, especially the wire-guided and top attack ones, ERA armour, composite armour, various sensors, AA weapons, etc. etc. etc.) and the single player version doesn't feature a functional AI. I wonder if they know what "accurate" means.

Anyway, they didn't bother to release a patch that would fix it or fix the product description and offer refunds despite that they were notified about that a few years ago.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

I would echo some of the points that Therion made about Matrix and CCMT.

I would also like people to know that I bought 4 games from Matrix over a period of years. 3 of them were crap IMHO. And 3 of them weren't really complete or play tested thouroughly when I purchased them.

So, I am done with them.

However, I am not sure if CCMT, counts as a re-release, but I know that I will mess with it over the next few years and in the end, I am glad I picked it up. But I am thinking it will be my last purchase of any CC game.

If I feel that way, I am fairly sure others must feel that way too.
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Dundradal

Rep: 27.9
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

They do have a bad habit of releasing buggy games....I'm a long time player of Carriers at War. I purchased the update when it came out...and was so-so with it. It's missing alot of the original's stuff but adds a few nicer graphics and map...however I recently started playing H2H with someone...and the MP game is full of bugs! The game typically crashes after 3 or 4 days of ingame time pass....sometimes sooner.

They definitely have some issues. I'm going to keep hounding them about the MMCC3 servers until something is done. I encourage everyone else to simply fill up the help desk with CC-related requests. That's the best way to get their attention.

Make detailed bug reports and put them into the help desk. All of us can report them over and over...until either they drive off a cliff to avoid us or do something about it...


"To you, we are deeply grateful, and release what little hold we might, as Durandal, have had on your soul.
Go."
- Final Terminal Message, Marathon Infinity
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

If you have issues with your games i can only encourage you to contact the helpdesk at Matrixgames.... that's what it is there for.
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Dundradal

Rep: 27.9
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

That's what I do.

CAW actually has a built in crash/bug reporter. Every time I've had a MP crash, both myself and my opponent, fill out the crash report form as completely as possible. Not sure where they actually go, but I do mention them at the help desk.


"To you, we are deeply grateful, and release what little hold we might, as Durandal, have had on your soul.
Go."
- Final Terminal Message, Marathon Infinity
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Dundradal wrote (View Post):
They definitely have some issues. I'm going to keep hounding them about the MMCC3 servers until something is done. I encourage everyone else to simply fill up the help desk with CC-related requests. That's the best way to get their attention.

Make detailed bug reports and put them into the help desk. All of us can report them over and over...until either they drive off a cliff to avoid us or do something about it...

Good idea. It would be amusing to see the help desk flooded with CC topics Very Happy . Don't forget to spam demands for implementation of the promised features in CCMT, guys Very Happy .

Another good idea would be to expose the actions of Matrix Games on other strategic game forums, write user reviews of their CC re-releases on gaming sites, etc.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Oh, I see that their helpdesk isn't public. So, their public forums could use an invasion too.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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CSO_Linebacker

Rep: 5.9
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Therion wrote (View Post):

Nah. The main problem is that the Matrix decided that buying the rights to CC was a big enough cost and decided that they'll release modded games with small engine tweaks for full prices of new games.


Get your facts straight.  Matrix didn't buy the rights.  Simtek made a rights agreement with Destineer.  Simtek would work on the re-releases, but Destineer gets the largest cut of the pie from the 3, or more, hands going into the pie as the rights holder.  Simtek goes the way of the Dodo, and Strategy3Tactics evolves from the ashes in an effort to complete the Simtek contract with Destineer...all the while hoping that their piece of the pie...the smallest of all the hands in the pie...will be enough to produce a brand new game on a brand new engine once out from underneath the licensing rights.

Therion, you were never this angry as a tester fro CCMT


'If it does not have a gun, it cannot be fun'
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CSO_Linebacker

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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):

Regarding the skill required to do a job, its hard to imagine putting 1000 hours into anything. I wasn't there, so I wont comment futher, only to say that if these hours represented work and not simply duration, some eyebrows must have been raised.


Hard to imagine putting 1000 hours into anything?...that's only about 6 months of working at a full-time job 40 hours a week.  I take it you're not a career man yet.  It's not quite as simple when you can't cut and paste copyrighted pictures into the gui and gadgets.

Pulled out the old excel database, and my exact total was 937.25 hours...so I guess technically, it's closer to 900 hours, although, it is still nearly 1000 hours on the project.  Why would it raise eyebrows?  I was a volunteer.

Someone else wanted to know how many hours were involved in a mod conversion.  I can say that for my part before my old comp died...why I was not involved in the longest day...I had logged about 120 hours into the GJS conversion to TLD of GUI, data, and stratmap.txt.  HD died and never went back to finish.


'If it does not have a gun, it cannot be fun'
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vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

I have to laugh when I hear those who blithely comment about Community Modding being able to develop anything remotely like a Core Game engine of the level of CC.  They measure these things in multiples of man years....

Say a Team of 5 programmers work for 2 years to build a good AI.  That's 10 man years.  What do you pay a good programmer? $50K/Year? $100K/year? So that's around $500,000 for the AI if not more, and we have only just started on costing a commercial release.  I once said that I reckon it would need an investment of around $3,000,000 to be able to promote CC to the next level.  That's because it needs a rewrite, not a Mod.  What's more, I think it would take a lot more effort than that to develop a really top class AI.  Now I come to think about it, I think it would take a lot more overall.  If you reckon you can do it for nothing, then you have my blessing, but also my scepticism.  

Convert that into commercial terms.

That's $3,000,000 Profit to cover the cost and break even.  How much have you got to sell to make $3,000,000 profit? Then there is the cost of borrowing the money (well, you don't think they are going to let you have it for nothing do you?).  The License/Copyright owners will want thier payback, then the distributors, then the Executives want their cut, and the shareholders, and you want some more to help invest in promoting the next release(s)?

Now, I am guesstimating these numbers I admit, but I do not think they are unrealistic.  You think CC or anything like it is going to make that kind of money?  Mmmmm......

In comparison, Matrix operate on the cheap (relatively speaking).  I am not knocking them for that.  They cannot do what they cannot afford to do.  You can make Mods for nothing because you choose to.  That is not an option for commercial enterprises like Matrix.  They have their staff, premises, Technology and all the overheads of running a commercial business.  As it is they benefit from many enthusiasts willing to contribute for nothing or next to nothing.  The result is that you continue to get releases, but you are unlikely to get the top drawer professional developments that saw CC2 for example (sponsored by Microsoft), or any of the top level productions.  Not to say that some of their titles are not quality, because they are, but you will get a very mixed bag of poor, ordinary, good, and some excellent.

Anyway, what was this thread about?... ah yes, modding re-releases  Wink .  Of course Mod re-releases, and upgrade Mods to work with them.  The old games are getting more and more of a pain to run on new systems, and are getting more difficult to get hold of.  At the end of the day. Mod whatever you want to Mod.  It's up to you.  However, I would have thought that if you want to give the best opportunity to new people joining the Community, you would want to make Mods for the newer releases?
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