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platoon_michael

Rep: 47.6
votes: 25


PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Where is Student's First Parachute Army?
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

One thing I should just mention: This mod is for the community.  However, all images remain the intellectual property of Duncan Beale. They are not to be used for any purpose without my express permission.  Any permission of use given on this forum site is purely for non-profit community use.  Commercial use is not inferred in any permission given on this site, nor is any use that results in personal or commercial financial gain.

Ok, sorry; just had to get that ugly little business out of the way.   ;)


That said, feel free to add the team heads to your build.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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platoon_michael

Rep: 47.6
votes: 25


PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

I also don't see Von Zangen's Fifteen Army included in the list.

Or am I just not understanding it?
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
Where is Student's First Parachute Army?


First Parachute Army
 II Fallschirmjäger Korps
   3rd Fallschirmjäger Division
   5th Fallschirmjäger Division
   Kampfgruppe Greschick

  XII SS Korps (12th)
   180th Infantry Division
   190th Infantry Division

 LXXXVI Korps
   Division Nr. 176
   6th Parachute Regiment
   107th Panzer Brigade

 Wehrkreis VI
   Corps "Feldt"
   406th Landesschützen Division
   Fallschirm-Jäger-Division Erdmann
   84th Infanterie Division
   89th Infanterie Division

 LXXIV Corps
   Kampfgruppe "Chill"
   272nd Volksgrenadier Division
   326th Volksgrenadier Division

 LXXXI Corps
   47th Volksgrenadier Division
   353rd Infantry Division
   363rd Volksgrenadier Division


Like I've said before; the above unit relationship table is probably open to interpretation, since the OOBs of this operation changed a few times.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
I also don't see Von Zangen's Fifteen Army included in the list.

Or am I just not understanding it?


Fifteenth Army
 LXVII Korps
   346th Infanterie Division
   711th Static Division
   719th Coastal Division

 LXXXVIII Korps (88th)
   KG "Walther"
   59th Infanterie Division
   245th Infanterie Division
   712th Infanterie Division


Again, the previous disclaimer about OOBs applies.  

Army level is too high to be useful; I'm using Divison, Brigade, Regiment & Battalion sized BGs.  I don't even like using divisional level, but I don't have enough BG spots, or map room for that matter, to fit all the units in otherwise.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

I'm currently doing a second revision of my battlemap placements.  Trying to un-squeeze everything a little, whilst refining important map positions.  

Added the Maas-Waal Canal, which I failed to notice the absence of until now.

It still takes a minimum of 5 1/2 days to get to Arnhem based on the lead elements of XXX Corps showing up on the map 3rd turn of second day (around noon).  Which is a problem if we are trying to emulate the desired outcome, rather than the historical outcome... hmmmm...  

No solution immediately presents itself to mind, as all of the battlemap placements along XXX Corps route are kind of crucial.  I could solidify Son, Veghel and Grave into one battlemap each, rather than one for each town and bridge.  That would knock off three turns.  Not overly keen on the idea.



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"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

How many "Turns" per day are you proposing.

You can have Four plus a night turn.....
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Pzt_Kevin_dtn

Rep: 10.9


PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Very nice.  Good to see that there is still some life in this old favorite.

One request that I would make is that in addition to playing vs AI that you make it playable against a human opponent.  Some of us are no longer able to abide an AI opponent before falling asleep.  Its a whole different world plain against an opponent with a brain.

looks like you have a great start going.
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 4:47 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Ahhh...  I thought it was 4 turns, and you could designate the 4th turn as either night or day.  Hmmmmm... so, a possible max of 5 turns per day.  That still means, if XXX Corps turns up on the 2nd turn of day two, that it's going to take a minimum of 5 days to reach Arnhem bridge with my current battlemap configuration.

Problems, problems.  The issue is that the CC5/TLD engine is not designed to emulate this operation in a way that would benefit gameplay (and realism).  If armoured and mobile units could move more than one map per turn (like if you had a "movement" bar that reduced as you moved, and each different type of unit had different values - cohesion?), then easily could you better represent the XXX Corps push to Arnhem.  And that is really the only problem; well, that and the inability to increase the campaign map size.

The interesting thing is that if I added the area between Eindhoven and Belgium, and used a max of three maps to represent this area, then you could make it to Arnhem bridge in four days flat.  Aaaargh!  I was trying to avoid having to kill my campaign map, but I think it's almost a given.  Actually, what I could do is "shrink" the current image and just add to the blank space left, either on all sides or just the area between Belgium and Eindhoven.

I am also starting to think that I need to reconsider how I represent the battlemap regions.  Because of how the engine spaces the unit icons, there is a probable issue with overlap.  One thing I'm thinking I will have to resort to is using the "classic" battlemap region zoning, and maybe have the bridge objectives in my current style of a box-in, or maybe even a box-out.

So, in the end, this current campaign map is far from finished.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Teaser... in progress.


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"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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golani_2

Rep: 5.6


PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

You are the MAN! :)

I probably missed it, but are you doing the actual battle maps too or are you converting them from CCII?

I just didn't really like the CCII maps...
*Hiding from incoming barrage due to last comment*
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Pzt_Kevin_dtn

Rep: 10.9


PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Its always a challenge finding the right balance between game play and historical aspects of a campaign given the limits of the game format.  But don't feel that you need to alter the game play significantly just to accomplish the historical goal.  At the end of the day its the joy of fighting battles on the terrain and having a semblence of what the commanders had to face in the real life battle.
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 94.1
votes: 5


PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote (View Post):
Its always a challenge finding the right balance between game play and historical aspects of a campaign given the limits of the game format.  But don't feel that you need to alter the game play significantly just to accomplish the historical goal.  At the end of the day its the joy of fighting battles on the terrain and having a semblence of what the commanders had to face in the real life battle.


Well said. If I want absolute realism I wouldn't be playing a game.
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

The revised strategic map


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"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

golani_2 wrote (View Post):
You are the MAN! :)

I probably missed it, but are you doing the actual battle maps too or are you converting them from CCII?

I just didn't really like the CCII maps...
*Hiding from incoming barrage due to last comment*


I'm trying to avoid using the original maps; they're too claustrophobic for my liking.  If I were to use any, they would have to be heavily expanded and modified.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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QM

Rep: 49.4


PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Great looking map Hoogley.

Nice stuff!


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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Here is the first revision of the battlemap placements.


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"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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golani_2

Rep: 5.6


PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Hoogley wrote (View Post):
golani_2 wrote (View Post):
You are the MAN! :)

I probably missed it, but are you doing the actual battle maps too or are you converting them from CCII?

I just didn't really like the CCII maps...
*Hiding from incoming barrage due to last comment*


I'm trying to avoid using the original maps; they're too claustrophobic for my liking.  If I were to use any, they would have to be heavily expanded and modified.


Don't know if I mentioned it already, but you're the man!  Very Happy
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pagskier

Rep: 25


PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

that looks damn good!
what is this extreme S town looks quite far of the actual road
what happened overthere?
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

golani_2 - "Don't know if I mentioned it already, but you're the man!  Very Happy"

Shucks, golani_2, you're making me blush.

pagskier - '"what is this extreme S town looks quite far of the actual road
what happened overthere?"


s'-Hertogenbosch?  Not much happened there, actually.  It's there for gameplay reasons.  I wanted to give the German player a bit of flexibility of movement.  From what I've read, the Germans were moving troops from here to there and back again; if I recall correctly, I think the 6th Falschirmjager took part in... actually, I think it was all three operational zones: 1st (Arnhem), 82nd (Nijmegen), and 101st (Eindhoven).  Unfortunately, I couldn't put in the route across the (name escapes me momentarily) ferry to the east - again for gameplay reasons, but I still wanted to give the Germans a lot of room to maneuver.

So, if you look at my battlemap placements, you'll see that each "zone" is a bulbous mass of maps, which constrict to a bridge crossing (or two) between each zone:  Arnhem - Nijmegen Bridge - Nijmegen - Grave Bridge - Eindhoven.  So, the Allied player really has to take each adjoining bridge in order to move to the next operational area.  (Now, I know this contravenes history in regard to Nijmegen.  Unfortunately, using the CCtLD engine, having a map setup for the river crossing would equate to a "cheat" to move armour across the river.  So, though I thought long and hard, I've decided to leave it out.  Sorry to all the purists (myself included), but hopefully you can see my reasoning.)

Combat in the Eindhoven area (101st) expanded west from Eindhoven to Best, Schijndel, and Oss; and out to Helmond and Gemert on the east.  Helmond and s'-Hertogenbosch seem to have been major operational hubs for the Germans.  To represent this, I've included s'-Hertogenbosch (it's frightening how easily I can spell this now) not because any battles occured there, but as a German supply & reinforcement point, from which the German player can direct his units onto the XXX Corps route.  From there you can move them anywhere from Eindhoven to Grave.  Likewise, Helmond is the supply hub to the east of the route.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live


Last edited by Hoogley on Mon May 31, 2010 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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