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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 30.7
votes: 9


PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

In CC3 it was coded that way, in later CC's we have to 'cheat' with what we have because it was coded differently, sometimes that cheating has unwanted side-effects.


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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):
In CC3 it was coded that way, in later CC's we have to 'cheat' with what we have because it was coded differently, sometimes that cheating has unwanted side-effects.


thanks for looking into this ... and mentioning it in the first place.

If changing the SAI is the only way to make crews be under command after abandoning their vehicles, then it might just be best to leave it as is ... and maybe the developers would consider making changes to accommodate this feature in a patch.


Last edited by davidssfx on Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:00 am Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

schrecken wrote (View Post):
Airbourne ATG crews spent all their time hiding in holes.


57mm at La Fiere  Smile
to read about its roll in this battle ... scroll down the page to the oblique aerial with the yellow overlay descriptions

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1174669606/Panzer+Ersatz+und+Ausbildungs+Abteilung+100+in+Normandy+TAKE+2+%28Very+Long+post%29
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mooxe

Rep: 174.9
votes: 23


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:17 am Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

From the website David posted...

“Not hearing any fire from the 57mm, I went over to it and found it unmanned. I tried to fire it, but the crew had taken the firing mechanism. I organised five or six men behind the hedge on the southerly side of the road with Gammon grenades, and just about this time, two of the gun crew returned with the firing mechanism. They knocked out the two tanks. They were two youngsters not more than 17 or 18 years old, who returned on their own initiative. I recommended them for Silver Stars”.

Interesting.
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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 30.7
votes: 9


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:22 am Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

davidssfx wrote (View Post):
schrecken wrote (View Post):
Airbourne ATG crews spent all their time hiding in holes.


57mm at La Fiere  Smile
to read about its roll in this battle ... scroll down the page to the oblique aerial with the yellow overlay descriptions

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1174669606/Panzer+Ersatz+und+Ausbildungs+Abteilung+100+in+Normandy+TAKE+2+%28Very+Long+post%29  


DAT. POST.

First of all it is the most extensive post in a forum I've ever seen, very well documented and well I don't know, it is very awesome to read it. Feels like I'm never going to end.

Thanks David!


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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:56 am Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

Unless it was knocked out by the Bazooka as some claim.   Smile
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:22 am Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

schrecken wrote (View Post):
Unless it was knocked out by the Bazooka as some claim.   Smile


try this one  Smile
from page 39 of:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-A-Utah/USA-A-Utah-2.html

While the chief concern of the 82d Airborne Division during D Day was with the la Fière bridgehead, where the bulk of the assembled forces were committed and where the enemy put up his strongest resistance, another attempt to secure a crossing of the Merderet River had been made at the same time to the south of Chef-du-Pont and had fared slightly better. The initial attack at Chef-du-Pont had been undertaken by the seventy-five men under Colonel Ostberg. The enemy withdrew from the town and the eastern approaches to the bridge but dug in along the causeway and on the west bank. Though apparently not numerous, the Germans fought tenaciously. Colonel Ostberg's men were stopped at the bridge. The seventy-five reinforcements who arrived later under Colonel Maloney could do nothing to break the deadlock. At about 1700 the Chef-du-Pont force was stripped to a platoon in order to send reinforcements to the hard-pressed paratroopers at la Fière.

The remaining platoon of thirty-four men under Capt. Roy E. Creek almost at once were whittled down to twenty effectives by direct fire from an enemy field piece on the opposite bank. At the same time from seventy- five to one hundred Germans were observed forming on the east bank in some buildings to the left rear of Captain Creek's position. Captain Creek asked for reinforcements. Before they could arrive, immediate help was provided fortuitously by the landing within American lines of a glider carrying a 57-mm. antitank gun and ammunition. The gun was emplaced and fired to neutralize the enemy artillery piece. Nearly one hundred men came down from la Fière shortly thereafter and the enemy threat was removed. With the reinforcements a defensive position was organized to bring greater fire power to bear on the enemy. In a short time the east bank was cleared, and a platoon crossed the bridge and dug in on the other side without opposition. The bridge was secured, though the position remained enfiladed by enemy fire from the Carquebut area.[b][u]

and here:
from "All American, All The Way
Page 240
the Germans launched an attack from Hill 20, north on the N-13 highway toward the town with two companies of infantry and several self propelled guns. Effective fire from a 57mm antitank gun of the 80th AA Battalion positioned at the roadblock on the south end of town stopped the self propelled guns

Page 241
Our 57mm antitank gun crew returned fire and set fire to the leading SP (self propelled) gun and one more that moved up behind it.
Smile
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:29 am Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

Well, to return to the vehicle crews:

-They were highly trained specialists (sort of anyway) and it was both cheaper and quicker to produce a new tank than to train five new tankers, that most likely would get themselves killed in their first engagement anyway. An experienced crew is more valuable than the hard-ware they are operating, so I think it's rather natural that they move of the map.  Cool


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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squadleader_id

Rep: 53.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
Well, to return to the vehicle crews:

-They were highly trained specialists (sort of anyway) and it was both cheaper and quicker to produce a new tank than to train five new tankers, that most likely would get themselves killed in their first engagement anyway. An experienced crew is more valuable than the hard-ware they are operating, so I think it's rather natural that they move of the map.  Cool


Agreed...and hopefully the new bailed out vehicle crew rule used in LSA will be implemented in WAR and TLD soon.
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mooxe

Rep: 174.9
votes: 23


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

We have yet to prove that these men do in fact get recycled back into a forcepool.
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vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

Is it not just Command Crew that can be 'commanded' once their vehicle has been totalled?  It may just be lazy of me, but I rarely take notice of a vehicle crew once they have bailed.  Yes, probably just laziness....

I think you may find that Wittman bailed from broken down or disabled vehicles (whether through mechanical failure - not uncommon - or enemy action), not 'destroyed' one's... now that's something that has always irked me.  A crew will stubbornly remain in a vehicle when it is immobilised, often to their death.  An immobilised SP Gun is usually just a piece of junk unless it happens to be facing within (roughly) a 30 degree arc of a target, though I suppose there could be the use of machine guns.  However, I have always thought that you should be able to order a crew to bail/dismount if you wanted.
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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 30.7
votes: 9


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

Well, tried it last night and I got crews from guns and Tanks to receive orders, no bad side effects noticed, in fact the tanks seemed more aggresive:

I made a battle to test the gammon bombs in Carentan with the british paras and the 130 lehr, before the SAI changes the tank AI struggled to get out of it's staggering area, when finally they managed to do it, they would send a tank down the main road one at the time. Never crossed the 2 storey building in the middle of the road. Only the half-tracks went to grab the VL of the road to the south. This happened 100% of the time, at least 10 tests.

After the changes, I got a Tiger, a StuG and a Pz 4 attacking down the main road, another Tiger moving parallel to them but from behind the row of buildings, destroyed them all but the StuG (Immobilized) using gammons with high casualties for both. Another pz4 managed to pass the middle building and the burning wrecks(out of gammons now) and went first for the church VL and then for one way behind my lines that it couldn't grab because it was hard to reach and then the time ran out. Got one of the gun crews to guard the church and re-capture the VL once the tank was gone. Was pretty exciting.

Then I tested from the other side, got my tanks destroyed and successfully managed a command team together with two men from a tank crew (with captured weapons) to grab the middle two storey building.

No tanks inside buildings
No guns moving around, also not inside buildings
No ranks messed up
No uniforms messed up
No BG selection screen messed up
No Tactical Icons messed up (zoom out view)

Will need more tests to fully approve this though. An OP or short campaign might be ideal.

PS. The tiger pathing is goddamn awful, it can't go on a straight line more than 50 meters, I thought it was because of the urban setting but then I was testing the tiger graphic from GJS in the included battle on the Ground Tactics mod, and the Tiger did the same, even on open ground.


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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

Hey way to go Pzt_Kanov ... I hope it works out.

What did you edit, and in what files, in order to accomplish this?

Thanks
David
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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 30.7
votes: 9


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

Just changed the SAI column in ***teams.txt to a '4' which is 'AT Team' for both guns and tanks.

I think it was already done in overlord or some other CC5 mod. As I said I read a thread here about it so, credit to the original discoverer.


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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):
Just changed the SAI column in ***teams.txt to a '4' which is 'AT Team' for both guns and tanks.

I think it was already done in overlord or some other CC5 mod. As I said I read a thread here about it so, credit to the original discoverer.


Thanks  :)

Can anyone think of a reason this won't work, or anything else that might get goofed up or affected in any way?
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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 30.7
votes: 9


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

It was regXtra the mod.

Here is the thread.

http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3821
 
Interesting that the poster says he changed the SAI to command tanks, I think that will be more desirable than tanks behaving like infantry, though as I said, I haven't encountered a problem with it and actually liked the more aggressive behavior of tanks coded as AT teams.


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vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

I just love it when the enemy tanks come belting up in front right into my stormtoopers as the AT teams rub their hands in anticipation...  Cool

Really, the armour and infantry should co-ordinate their tactics, but that is asking a bit much of the AI.  Sometime they do, but I think it is more by luck than good logic.
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

I've tested this with tanks and guns changed to "4 = Anti-Tank" in the SAI column.
It seems to work well ... I definitely  prefer being able to issue orders to abandoned crews. The only thing I noticed was some differences in how the AI deployed, but it's so hard to know if it was because of this change or something else.
I'm not willing to include it in the next release of Ground Tactics though, unless more information about what the SAI column values affect ... and what possible problems may occur from this edit.

If you have any info ... please post
Thanks
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panssarijaakari

Rep: 15.6


PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

Sorry for reviving a dead thread, but I have been able to get a screenshot of a vehicle crew that had bailed the battle before.

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panssarijaakari

Rep: 15.6


PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: TLD abandoned vehicle crews can't take orders ... why? Reply with quote

And here's another screenshot. When I removed the vehicle crew from the active rooster, another Sherman V (the tank they fought in the battle before) was added to the force pool.



This was while playing CCTLD with the v5.50.11b patch.

EDIT: Gah, sorry for double post. Was having problems with the latter image.
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