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TRIVIA: Are soldiers credited for killing surrendered troops?

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Tejszd

Rep: 102.2
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

Your are right about the scale probably being more a guide. Some things at scale would probably be too small to even tell what they were. Also with multiple people doing different graphics there are also could just be errors or people using different source information....

Even for quantities in forcepools in Meuse1940 I tried to use a standard but then sometime there was a only a couple of specific tank/vehicle so do you then not include it then because the quantity using the scale would be .3???
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:05 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

Hi,

And yes, I believe your assessment is correct. Certainly in the the post CC5 era for these game titles. It really didn't take long to figure out either. Just a cursory glance during game play (or screenshots), proved at least to moi, that the notion of scale for any object class was largely absent, and certainly when you tried to classify objects by scale types such as map, vehicles, and soldiers.

So in conclusion, it is true to say that the map, vehicle, and soldier scales for PitF are all different, just as they have been different for the titles that have preceded PitF.

That being said, I am sure the PitF team was hopeful or perhaps confident, that the larger scales (or guide) for map features and vehicles, would make the game more detailed (and fun). And perhaps that has occurred. But each user will have to assess the abstracted scales for themselves, because there will be times (during any game) when the abstactions will seem imperfect.
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

Does what you see looking down at a PitF map resemble the scale of things in the real world viewed from the same height?
Try this:
Since PitF maps are 8 pixels per meter ... you can figure out how many meters are represented across your computer screen by dividing the width of you computer screen by 8.
For example: 1600 screen pixels divided by 8 pixels equals 200 meters.
Now open google earth, and go to a place where it's pretty nice resolution ... like "Cagny Normandy"
Get the ruler from the tools menu, and use meters.
Then zoom in on some residential area until you can measure 200 meters across your entire screen (or whatever amount of meters you got for your screen).
Remember to tilt the google earth view to direct top down view by using the tilt arrow at the bottom of the nav ring, under the N for north symbol.
That's 200 meters of real life terrain across your screen ... does the scale of things (buildings, roads, vehicles) look similar to a PitF map?

Also, I realize a PitF map is not 1:1 ratio of map to real life meters, but the above method does give a way of comparing what you see on your screen.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

Hi,

Sounds interesting. Is it possible for you to do that, and post some screenshots in the thread?

Also, when I first started checking this stuff out, I just made the assumption that the PitF map features were to scale. (8 pixels/meter).

So then, I started checking out other stuff like the tanks. But I did try to measure one of the roads in the screenie above, and thought it to be 56 pixels or 7 meters or 23 feet.

But are the tanks to a scale larger than the map scale? (why not, its always been this way). That's what we have been asking here on page 2. And can there be one of those [visual] imperfections in the abstracted scales? For instance, when a tank moves down a road? Or a soldier and a turret hatch?

This kind of stuff never even entered my brainspace until PitF, and I don't even have the game.  After all, I was still using the stock (large) soldiers up to a year ago.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

Hopefully, David will try to round up a few Google screenies.  Idea

In the meantime, I just took a simple, every day CC5 screenshot. Its CC5 Auvres, one of my favorite maps for great battles.

I'll bet if anyone checks it out, and concentrates, they can see scale abstractions all over the place. Again, this is stuff I never even thought of before. But hey, check out the cow in the upper right hand side.  Confused

These soldiers don't fit in the tank hatches either. And how about the tanks on the roads. What is up with that. And we just must assume that the beeg structure by the crossroad, is the community center.  Wink
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

here is a PitF 200 meter image capture across a 1600 pixel screen with a few 200 meter google earth buildings and stuff overlaid.
PitF roads and building are a bit oversize, as well as soldiers (but you do want to be able to see soldiers) ... all in all, it seems pretty close.



PItF 200 meters on1600x900 screen.jpg
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PItF 200 meters on1600x900 screen.jpg


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DAK_Legion

Rep: 86.3
votes: 20


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

I always liked photorealistic maps;)


heia Safari!!
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

for comparison


google earth 200 m on 1600x900 screen reduced.jpg
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google earth 200 m on 1600x900 screen reduced.jpg


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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

Hi David,

Sorry, I was away for a little bit, it was my son's 18th birthday tonight. He was born (1/9/1995).

Thanks for fetching the Google screenshots. And I agree, things do look close. Me thinks, as an overall impression, the PitF maps are a lot nicer looking than the CC5 equivalents. Just the new textures, especially the rooftops, have more detail, and I think like you, that enlarging the visual scale was the goal, so that more detail could be shown in everything. I have a hard time "seeing" the 7.7 soldiers.  Laughing

However, since we know that PitF scales are not the same, and by this I mean map, vehicles, soldiers, it goes without saying that users will just have to evaluate the abstractions as they see them and appreciate them. Just like Church mentioned on page 1. The foremost point I wanted to make in this thread, was that PitF scales are not the same, just like other versions of CC.

For instance, if you recall the road image above. I measured this as 56 pixels or 23 feet. Yet the Tiger tanks are 12 feet wide in real life. So in this example larger than the map scale, and their apparent size as viewed when on the road itself seem even larger still (maybe 18 feet wide).  

I think your screenies help to prove other points that have been made. Despite our assumptions about the PitF scales, the scales were used as guides, as Tejszd mentioned, as it would seem that roads and perhaps structures (in practice) are closer to the soldier scale of 12 pixels per meter.

If true, then we must enter and make formal the Range Scale. So to express Pitf scales, they might be as follows:

Range scale = 8 pixels per meter
Vehicle scale = 10 pixels per meter
Map (features) scale = ~8 to 12 pixels per meter (structures by themselves are nearly impossible to evaluate)
Soldier scale = 12 pixels per meter.

And of course, I hope everyone realizes, that the Range Scale, could again be just an aproximation. Since to validate its accuracy, one would have to measure the ranges of the game's weapons. For instance, I remember players complaining about certain CCMT weapons that could fire acrross the 960 meter maps. (i.e. the range scale appeared to be not accurate)
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

And just to help anyone who hasn't fallen asleep with this discussion, I have taken David's first screenie and rotated it so it was easier to measure lengths and width's of the objects, like the road and the tank, which I assume is a Panther V.

The precision of the measurements can be off somewhat as it is always difficult to measure such small objects and to get their width and lengths in pixels acurate.

But here is one set of meaurements  Arrow

Tank width = 36 pixels / 3.27 meters (actual width of Panther V) = 11.00 pixels per meter

Tank length = 70 pixels / 6.87 meters (actual length of Panther V) = 10.18 pixels per meter


Road width = 58 pixels / 7 meters (theoretical width of road) = 8.28 pixels per meter

Road width = 58 pixels / 5.8 meters (theoretical width of road) = 10.00 pixels per meter

Road width = 58 pixels / 4.83 meters (theoretical width of road) = 12.00 pixels per meter

So, if the road is in fact 5.8 meters wide (19 feet), or 9.5 feet for each lane, then at least the road scale (perhaps the map feature scale) can closely aproximate the Axis tank scale.
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
So, if the road is in fact 5.8 meters wide (19 feet), or 9.5 feet for each lane, then at least the road scale (perhaps the map feature scale) can closely aproximate the Axis tank scale.


Hi,
Firstly, congrats on your son's birthday :)

Second, I'll just comment on the Panther / Road scale comparison since I'm busy right now.
If the road size is 19 feet across and a Panther is slightly over 11 feet in width ... then you would expect a Panther to surpass the halfway point by about 1.5 feet. In the image, it looks to be about a tread width (2 feet) more than half way ... so I'd figure the width comparison is less than 1 foot difference between real life and PitF.
Therefore, visually PitF seems to simulate the road width to Panther width ratio quite well.



PantherRoadCompare.jpg
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PantherRoadCompare.jpg


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DAK_Legion

Rep: 86.3
votes: 20


PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Reply with quote

Goods explains david and stwa;)

thanks!


heia Safari!!
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