[MajHermann]

Hi guys!

I experienced that the German 3 man anti tank teams are more or less worthless.
(dont know about Russian).
They hardly ever achieve anything. Bearing in mind the difficulty of getting them close to a tank (for example thanks to an uncareful opponent), they should be more effective. In my experience, they cannot even immobilize a tank,using there mine or hollow charge. yesterday not even a light t-70 was scratched by them .
I think the magnetic hollow charge should have a kill ratio of lets say 66 % for example. And mybe give this team some tnt sticks too.

[GS_Schimpf]

I tested what you said and came to the same conclusion: hard to get them in strinkingh range undetected. And then they have big diffculties doing their job, knocking out or even damaging tanks.
I'm fine with the first fact, sneaking up tanks is not easy. But if you close to them the team should be more effective considering their loadouts.

[Pzt_penguin]

Its mostly the fault of the Close Combat engine. Its hard to mod an early era AT squad team in CC. Maybe if you gave a tank no MGs or made them very inaccurate it would work. So untill the programers get it right improvise

[ANZAC_Lord4war]

right on penguin.
i made the mgs have a minimum range so if inf get so close,tanks only option is to go forward or reverse quickly.this gives the inf them vital few seconds to get a 2nd shot in if they dont get lucky first time.
i also made all the AA guns not work under 60 metres,as i thought it would be unlikely the tank commander would be sticking his head out if infantry were that close.

[Dima]

i did kill T34 with Pzjagere and immob KVs. Just wait in ambush and of coz the higher elevation the better.

actually during actions of winter 1942-1943 only 2% of tank casualties were inflicted by HEAT-based weapon(not only HHL but HEAT shells as well).

in actions of 1943(first appearence of PzFaust, Ofenrohr,PzSchreck) it raised to 7%.

in actions of 1944 it droped to 5%.

During Berlin Offensive Operation 1st Belorussian Front lost 137 T34 to HEAT-based inf weapons. That is 7.8% of all T34 KO(1746).

So u should be really lucky to KO T34 with HHL if to take into account u can't throw it on tank but should run toward tank and place it on armor.

ww2 tanx had v lil area where they can't shoot with MG.
f.e. T34'41 had dead-zone for it's bow MG of 6.8m, T-34'42 had dead-zone for it's bow MG of 5.7m.

In Stal Bow MG min range is 6m.

[MajHermann]

Hi Dima!

Interesting info!
But I think the low casualty rates u mention were because it was rare that you can close in to a t 34 with a hhl in a healthy way :
I referred to the case that a opponent sends his tank for whatever reason next to a house. u charge it with a panzerjäger team and the outcome is always disappointing (for me). I never even immob a tank by doing this!
cheers

[Dima]

try to set them on defence instead of charging

[sieterayos]

[Dima]

[sieterayos]

[cronus]

My PzBuchse 39 team killed two T34 last night, one shot is 9 meters away, the other is 23 meters away, two of the shots were side shots. Team was ambushed in first floor of a roofles building.

I think this unit is an excellent tank killer when it's used in city at close range.

[socrates]

I noticed the same problem. Two pioneer units and one pazerjager done absolutely nothing. Then the swine rolled through a minefield without losing thier tracks . Perhaps panzerjager teams should have a wee bit more ammo so tha once you've got inside a tanks dead zone you can exploit your situation a bit more.

[dgfred]

PzJager teams don't do squat... except can kill oppposing infantry.

[Diesel]

I find the Pz Jager teams are fine.  They have a limited ability to kill tanks under the right conditions. At close range  As in real life. They are suicide squads.  They might get a hit, or two and die.
i generally hold them back for an ambush.  Or to figure out the battlefield . And where they can sneak up on a tank   . In buildngs , in cities  , its easier to sneak up on armor thats not moving.
'  And usually this means long games.  If the game is short. Then it takes too long for them to sneak up. Then they are useless.   Its difficult to  use them properly.

[Schmal_Turm]

I find that flamethrower teams in buildings are devastating when the tank happens to come close enough to get the victory location. You have to keep other units in the building to take care of the enemy infantry units that will most likely lead the tank though.

As far as the ability of an AT gun to take out a tank, any can conceivably take one out if it is hit in the right spot such as the turret ring or a vision port, but I don't believe they are considered in the mechanics of the game and the chance is very slim anyway. My brother was telling me that he uses the AT rifles to get the tank to turn toward the shooter in order to expose the flank to an AT gun. I never understood though how the game does not take into consideration the faster rate of fire of AT guns vs. tanks. In the tank turret there is limited space to move around in and usually the loader is one person. On the other hand some AT guns like the Flak 88 have 8 crew members with a fire rate of up to 8 rounds/minute.

I had the same idea of having players give their tips and suggestions on "how to" tactics, especially infantry in fairly hopeless situations against tanks.

[Dima]

[Schmal_Turm]

Now Dima, I am not referring to smaller caliber guns where it is logical that with smaller shells there would be a faster ROF. I am referring to considerations such as the fact that as the Germans fought against, in many cases, superior French and Soviet tanks there were extenuating circumstances that made the Germans the victors in many cases. What I am referring to is that French tanks such as the H-35, H-39, R-35, and the Soviet T-60 and T-70 all had small two man turrets making the commander also the loader which slowed the ROF considerably. In addition, the early T-34s, versions A and B, also had a commander's hatch which opened to the front making it very difficult to acquire targets without the commander getting killed in the process, as well as having a fairly cramped turret. Also, just the fact that the 88 had a crew of 8 gave it a much faster ROF that they should not take nearly as long to fire as it seems to take and should be firing about twice as fast as comparable tanks with similar calibers. From what I have read a few 88 were generally enough to stop a Soviet tank attack and I don't seem to get the same effect very often in my CC gaming.

Since, I haven't dealt with the mechanics of the game maybe you can correct me if these differences are included in the games, as I don't think they are.

[Hetser]

Oh yes, indeed, and furthermore, regarding game realism:
I read that the 88's, so long as they were intact, a position was never lost. The Germans had a lot of them when they gave up anti-aircraft defence of Berlin, and vets tell me that they used them like rifles.
The parts were nickel-plated and supposedly disassembly could be done by hand.

[Dima]

[Fiestita]