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TRIVIA: Are soldiers credited for killing surrendered troops?

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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

dj wrote (View Post):
Crimea seizure was a shrewd maneuver by Putin well worth the cost.  Now Putin seems to be getting too greedy and is tempted to stomp on Ukraine to get another land grab especially with some loyalists instigating rebellion.  Ukraine unfortunately stands very little chance against the Russian war machine and will get bitch slapped.  I think that is why some Ukrainian forces have "switched sides" allegedly because they know they will get annihilated.

The War Hawk American conservatives are desperate to get involved and that will get dicey.  McCain as usual is the #1 advocate of war and asking American govt to finance the arming of Ukraine.
Thank God McCain or Romney did not get elected President of US because they would have already pushed the Nuke strike button by now.


No.

All is in the context of a Russophobic neo-Nazi led putsch to take Ukraine out of RF's orbit and towards US/EU, a US manoeuvre on the Grand Chessboard.

What does that mean for Putin?

He postures as a hard line nationalist who will defend "Russian"(in reality oligarchic) interests. The putsch represents a massive loss of economic and political influence and a virulently hostile state, a launchpad for future provocations, right next to European and Caucasus Russia's vitals. This is as much why the US supports the Ukrainian extreme nationalists and fascists as why Putin must oppose them.

There was nothing "shrewd" about seizing the Crimea, it was worst case scenario damage limitation. Not to annex Crimea would have meant, in one stroke, that Putin went down in history as the President that peacefully opened the door to RF dissolution. He was forced to act. As much as the west use killings by fascist Right Sector snipers as justification for their putsch, protecting Russian speakers in Ukraine is a pretext for Putin to attempt to protect the Russian oligarch's interests.

That done, he is caught between his nationalist posturing and the reality that NATO technical superiority sold to Russophobe ex-Soviet bloc states will do enormous damage to RF in a land war for which, regardless of the facts, the world's media can be depended upon to blame Russia. Russia has nothing to win from a nuclear war, either, and the brazenness of the West's aggression suggests the US may now feel immune to Russia's nuclear arsenal. Putin is not calling the shots but responding to western aggression as best he sees fit. "Putin the aggressor" is, in this case at least, a creation of the same western media that has buried the real causes of this crisis as well as mention of the political forces used to effect the putsch (we could go on at length on the western media's previous "form" in promoting illegal aggressive wars over the last 20 years).

The Donbas, is another question. Of course, Russia does not want to lose it, but in a balance of considerations, it has more to lose than gain by attempting its annexation. There are doubtless token Russian military forces amongst and helping the insurgents. There have to be, because Putin has to be able to tell the Russian people later, that he did something to help them. It is, more than anything else, a working class revolt against the fascists in Kiev and the sociocidal destruction of industry that EU membership will precipitate.

Putin is, in reality, more fearful of the working class in Donbas than he is of NATO. A revolt against EU "austerity" rammed through with a neo-Nazi National Guard with a raft of "anti-terrorist" laws under a Kiev government, or essentially the same with Cossack militia in place of Right Sector thugs, perhaps, deferred a few years, by Moscow? What a choice.

Putin will not risk war with NATO to take responsibility for the Donbas situation. The insurgency there can just as well spread to other working class centres in RF and throughout Eastern Europe, where workers have been pauperised and tens of millions driven into permanent unemployment. Putin must draw on the traditions of Stalinism to feign support for the Donbas workers while, in reality, cutting them loose and stabbing them in the back. Putin would see them crushed. How much better for him to have this done by the EU/Ukraine and then feign outrage? The Donbas workers have nobody to turn to in governmental places, only their class brothers and sisters throughout the world.

Putin's failure to protect the oligarchs interests can and may be spun as a reason to install a less bellicose president in Moscow, one more amenable to doing the US bidding. The oligarchs may choose to subordinate themselves to US imperialism rather than go up in smoke. In such a scenario, the RF becomes a semi colony like Ukraine, its population reduced to semi-slave status as in much of the third world. Otherwise, the conflict begins anew and from new starting blocks.

This situation has fundamentally shifted the game in Eurasia. If, IF this bout dies down, it will only be a pause to prepare the next provocation from, for the US, a greatly enhanced position, politically, geographically and economically. Politically, we see how the media presents the big lie to us, that Russia is the aggressor in a Ukrainian struggle for independence and democracy, selflessly supported by the US/EU. The European ruling class see this as an opportunity to unite the fragmenting EU and channel the enormous class tensions outwards, against a common enemy. The US doubtless considers this an added benefit to its strategy. While the rise of the far right  in countries such as France, including within the working class, indicate potentially fatal confusions, the European working class as a whole remains unconvinced, deeply distrustful of a media which has sold it war after war after war on the basis of lies.

Sanctions against Russia will remain in place and pretext be found to tighten the stranglehold. Impoverishment and loss of profit for Russian workers and oligarchs respectively, will be used to turn the screw on nationalist sentiment in Russia.

Even if there is now a lull, and this is in no way a forgone conclusion, there are new provocations around the corner. Perhaps Belarus will be "regime changed" in a chip, chip, chip away at Russia's allies, or perhaps the US will judge the FR sufficiently weakened to go for the knock out. Such fine details one can not predict, only the general course of events.

The wild card is the world's working class. Unorganised and unled, the revolt in Donbas nevertheless demonstrates the potential power of the class and the attractive power it wields as a counter to the prospects of fascism and austerity offered by capitalism. As throughout the last century, to realise that potential and not leave it to be misdirected, dispersed and destroyed by hostile class forces, depends upon the creation of a scientific socialist leadership based upon the principles of internationalism and equality as well as the lessons of 100 years plus of imperialist war, and social democratic and Stalinist betrayal.
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:10 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Latest provocation.

Having pretended the shock troops of their putsch were not anti-Semitic Russophobe neo-Nazis, Kerry and his various amplifiers of the media have seized upon upon a forged leaflet circulating in Donetsk calling on local Jews to register with the insurgent authorities and pay a substantial sum to avoid deportation, to demonstrate the anti-semitism of the anti-fascist revolt. Analyse the paper and ink you'll probably find they're produced in the USA.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/18/antisemitic-donetsk-peoples-republic-ukraine-hoax
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dj

Rep: 122.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Siet you are completely delusional to accuse the US of launching that anti-Semitic flyer.  Really you have lost all credibility.
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

dj wrote (View Post):
Siet you are completely delusional to accuse the US of launching that anti-Semitic flyer.  Really you have lost all credibility.


Is it so absurd that a country that has spent $5 billion fostering illegal regime change in Ukraine, putting its chosen puppets in positions of its choosing, letting or having them kill their own protesters for media consumption to provide pretext for regime change, sponsoring neo-Nazis and calling it all democracy, would shirk from attempting to smear its opponents as anti-Semites? Israel, which is always champing at the bit to label its opponents anti-semites and neo-Nazis on this occasion, has endorsed the real Kiev neo-Nazi anti-semites. Incredible!

Clearly you learn nothing, either from history or from what is dished up right in front of your eyes.
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southern_land

Rep: 142.4
votes: 14


PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

dj wrote (View Post):
Siet you are completely delusional to accuse the US of launching that anti-Semitic flyer.  Really you have lost all credibility.


there is "the US"  then there is "factions within the US" that are more than capable and willing especially when they think they can use the "Jew stick" with impunity
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:30 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

The Right Sector has broke the Easter cease-fire at Slavyansk killing 3 and incapacitated 1 unarmed militia memebers on one of the blockposts. In following counterattack by armed militia 2 Right Sector guerillas were also killed and other fled. Note the Yugoslavian clone of MG.42 used by Right Setor guerillas.
http://lifenews.ru/news/131635  

Militant with dug out PPSh Wink
http://im.kommersant.ru/Issues.photo/CORP/2014/04/20/KMO_140946_00220_1_t218_111557.jpg
 
I'm confused, can anyone help me? (c) Neil Clark
The anti-government protestors in Ukraine during the winter received visits from several prominent Western politicians, including US Senator John McCain, and Victoria Nuland, from the US State Department, who handed out cookies. But there have been very large anti-government protests in many Western European countries in recent weeks, which have received no such support, either from such figures or from elite Western media commentators. Nor have protestors received free cookies from officials at the US State Department.
http://rt.com/op-edge/west-leaders-ukraine-democracy-600/
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dj

Rep: 122.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Ultra-Nationalism = Fascism especially when the Government claims "oppression" of ethnic minorities in neighboring nations.  How quick we are to forget the past.  Neo-Nazism, Right-Wing Partisans, Ultra-Nationalists & "Anti-Government" militia groups are a WORLDWIDE problem.  That's rich everyone is blaming America.  As far as the anti-Jewish propaganda, that too was probably the work of ultra-nationalists aka fascists.  Yet they blame America for being the fascist.  

Enough of the blame game.  There is a growing threat of right-wing extremist groups that are in solidarity with Neo-Nazis.  America has lots of problems with these groups but they are famous for having a hatred of Europe because they see European nations as liberal Socialist states.  America Right-Wing extremist and neo-nazi groups are on steroids now since a half-black man is President and was re-elected.  Here is how they arrive to "protest" federal police with armed militias using sniper rifles aimed at police:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/17/us-usa-ranchers-nevada-militia-insight-idUSBREA3G26620140417?feedType=RSS
 
I do agree however with many of Clark's points especially what he said about Syria.
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

dj wrote (View Post):
Ultra-Nationalism = Fascism especially when the Government claims "oppression" of ethnic minorities in neighboring nations.  How quick we are to forget the past.  Neo-Nazism, Right-Wing Partisans, Ultra-Nationalists & "Anti-Government" militia groups are a WORLDWIDE problem.  That's rich everyone is blaming America.  As far as the anti-Jewish propaganda, that too was probably the work of ultra-nationalists aka fascists.  Yet they blame America for being the fascist.  
If ultra-nationalism really = fascism, it does not need any qualification, "especially" or otherwise. But ultra-nationalism is not fascism, but a feature of numerous political and social phenomena, including fascism. What exactly he has forgotten from "the past" is unclear given the royal we, are not entirely sure what he knew in the first place. What the royal we is sure of, is that neo-Nazi militia in Ukraine, forget the rest of the world for a minute, are as influential as they are to day, in large part due to US funding and other support.

dj wrote (View Post):
Enough of the blame game
Someone tell that to Secretary of State John Kerry, he had blamed the insurgents for the forged anti-Semitic leaflets almost before they were off the printing press. But let's not say of which country Kerry is Secretary of State, that's just beneath us. In our naive yet morally superior wisdom, we all know that the world's just a bad place, but it will be better for a good dose of Liberty and Democracy forced upon it by neo-Nazi militia, illegal regime changes and putsches designed and funded by the free world. Every little bit helps!
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
I'm confused, can anyone help me? (c) Neil Clark
The anti-government protestors in Ukraine during the winter received visits from several prominent Western politicians, including US Senator John McCain, and Victoria Nuland, from the US State Department, who handed out cookies. But there have been very large anti-government protests in many Western European countries in recent weeks, which have received no such support, either from such figures or from elite Western media commentators. Nor have protestors received free cookies from officials at the US State Department.


Food for thoughts..
Taking that a step further… What if Russia or China would do the same thing, handing out "free cookies"…. to protesters in western countries…?
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dgfred

Rep: 46.8


PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

You think they don't?


Sports Freak/ CC Commander/ Panzerblitz Commander
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:20 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Do you know?
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dgfred

Rep: 46.8


PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Heck no... never claimed to.


Sports Freak/ CC Commander/ Panzerblitz Commander
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 85.3
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

"As we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know."
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dj

Rep: 122.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:20 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Finally the truth is revealed how Russia has sent people to instigate trouble in Ukraine.  Now Russia is detaining reporters after investigative journalists exposed the fraud of government:

SLAVYANSK, Ukraine, April 22 (UPI) -- An American journalist was one of six detained by unidentified authorities in the city of Slavyansk, in eastern Ukraine.  The five other journalists were released after they were detained Monday night, but Simon Ostrovsky, a writer and producer for Vice News Network, remained in custody. No details of his condition were available.

Vice News is headquartered in Brooklyn, N.Y., and has about 25 offices worldwide.  Ostrovsky has been in Ukraine throughout the crisis there, reporting on Russia's annexation of Crimea. He was born in Ukraine.


www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2014/04/22/American-journalist-detained-in-eastern-Ukraine/2421398187780/#ixzz2zgCNCggG
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

dj wrote (View Post):
Finally the truth is revealed how Russia has sent people to instigate trouble in Ukraine.  Now Russia is detaining reporters after investigative journalists exposed the fraud of government:

SLAVYANSK, Ukraine, April 22 (UPI) -- An American journalist was one of six detained by unidentified authorities in the city of Slavyansk, in eastern Ukraine.  The five other journalists were released after they were detained Monday night, but Simon Ostrovsky, a writer and producer for Vice News Network, remained in custody. No details of his condition were available.

Vice News is headquartered in Brooklyn, N.Y., and has about 25 offices worldwide.  Ostrovsky has been in Ukraine throughout the crisis there, reporting on Russia's annexation of Crimea. He was born in Ukraine.


www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2014/04/22/American-journalist-detained-in-eastern-Ukraine/2421398187780/#ixzz2zgCNCggG  


I don't think dj is entirely serious. Nobody could be that stupid?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27104904

I would be surprised if there weren't both Russian and US special forces in Ukraine, we know the CIA director visited Kiev last week. Who's driving the Crisis? The US and its puppets.

Anyone taken in by the photos "endorsed" by the White House is a thick as poo.
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mooxe

Rep: 174.5
votes: 23


PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Quote:
Russia will respond if its interests in Ukraine are attacked, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said, drawing a parallel with the 2008 Georgian war.


And these interests would be.........


Anything Russia is interested in!
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mooxe

Rep: 174.5
votes: 23


PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Does Russia have any interest in keeping the Ukraine whole?
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
Quote:
Russia will respond if its interests in Ukraine are attacked, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said, drawing a parallel with the 2008 Georgian war.


And these interests would be.........


Anything Russia is interested in!


What's stands out in your posts is your absolute fixation on alleged aggressive Russian interests and complete lack of interest in what the US/EU are doing. This is the agenda of the pro-imperialist media as I pointed out in my first post here. It is part of a thread in which the criminal machinations of the US/EU and their neo-Nazi proxies have been documented and evidenced. You have a no point attempted to address let alone refute this evidence but continue casting aspersions as to Russia's expansionist aims. In fact, you dismiss incontrovertible fact as "conspiracy theory" naturally without evidencing your assertion.

Clearly, then,you only have eyes for what you want to see and the agenda you choose to follow. Such people are impossible to engage with in a logical argument.
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mooxe

Rep: 174.5
votes: 23


PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Code:
alleged aggressive Russian interests


Seriously?
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dj

Rep: 122.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:56 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Siet you're making no sense man.  Just admit that Putin has an imperialist regime of his own - not even remotely close to the Socialist utopia you desire.

So you think the journalists were detained because they are fascist spies?  Or let me guess it was a conspiracy by the media to make believe journalists were detained.

Now Putin is offering citizenship to anyone in former USSR.  Much like what the Imperial Romans did.
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