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fry30

Rep: 2.3


PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:27 am Post subject: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy crap Reply with quote

Matrix put out another $50 Mod?  What the hell is wrong with these idiots. Didn't GJS come out almost a decade ago? (Maybe longer.)

I know this should go on their webpage, but I won't even give them the traffic. What a bunch of out-of-touch money grubbing bastards. I have no faith what-so-ever for TBF. I already have Combat Mission, (hell I bet CMx1 will have more features than TBF) so I'm all set..
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Antony_nz

Rep: 83.9
votes: 6


PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:45 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

I haven't played any of the new Close Combats.
I'm glad GWTC has had a bit of exposure. Unfortunately i know for a fact that allot of people have failed to purchase it. Based on the price alone..

Cant blame you for giving matrix crap btw ..

I love how they have kept the game engine. Especially the top down 2D idea. They just haven't significantly approved it.
Now im not a expert on game design.Or games in general  But i don't see why a 2D Close Combat has to limit our imagination. A 2D Close Combat shouldn't limit features.
I have thought for years that soldiers and explosions/smoke/ammo-litter should be 3D on a 2D background.
I dont think 2D maps should limit the destructibility of the environment. Well in fact.. It should increase it!?  

A 2D game will put off gamers. But Close Combat has never looked attractive on first glance pictures/videos ect.BUT NEITHER DOES REAL WAR!

I have always said that 2D simply looks better than 3D. It looks more realistic. This statement is probably less and less true as the years go by. But was diffidently true in 2005-2008

And PITF maps did not look as detailed as CC5 maps. As pointed out on another thread.
That unacceptable.


.( I dont like the game industry as a whole. I think the game industry has failed to live up to peoples expectations and dreams due to restraints in the last 10 years. Now!, thats not to say i prefer older games. I'm not stuck in the past.) I dont think Metal gear solid 1 is one the best games in the world because its old. It just is!

Sorry for the messy ramble.  Rolling Eyes
This is of course just my opinions. Theres probably are allot who'd disagree on points i have made.

Everyone feel free to bag on matrix and brain storm!


http://talesofclosecombat.blogspot.co.nz/
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fry30

Rep: 2.3


PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:07 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

I think the right honorable Mooxe was correct when he stated, in some other thread on perhaps some other forum, that one of the problems with all the re-releases (mods in effect) was their discontinuity. Take the Modern Tactics/Marine CCs, where are the 3v3 battles? It looks like they have finally created a dedicated lobby that could perhaps rival Microsoft's Zone, (holy crap that was a long time ago), but I wouldn't know, I still play on Game Ranger. Oh well..

I just was surprised that they released another game before TBF. Its disappointing that despite Sliverine (or whatever the hell they are called) 's involvement, Matrix is still up to its crooked old tricks.


One last power gripe.... Would it kill them to create a little more synergy between the "strategic" and tactical levels? The size of the units involved doesn't exactly translate well into what we see in the individual battles.

Well I know I mentioned Combat Mission above, but Close Combat is my first love. And that rhymed.
The end.
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Nomada_Firefox

Rep: 32.9
votes: 9


PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:36 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Clearly no one of you have any of the last CC games because the differences from it and CC5 are huge.

I go to write the most important:

-32bits.

-IA.

-Effects, the explosions are the best.

-Night battles.

-Behaviour from weapons. Mortars, heavy guns, all run more realistic and specially fun.

-GUI (game menus and units selection).

-The game can be modded easily and it has not the older limits.

Clearly if you had played all them, you had seen these differences.

At other point, clearly you have not played the latest CC games and probably many of the Matrix games because the matrix lobby is the unique option from many of them for the last years. With gameranger, probably you can not play the CC from the last 4 years.

About Matrix lobby, it is better each day but it had thousands of problems and a normal ip connection probably would be better. The unique better point from the lobby, it is how you can find easier other players, this is a point which people disgusted with it, they have not tried the other way.
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JFFulcrum

Rep: 77.5


PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Nomada_Firefox

You missed troop&guns transports and better sound.

Yes, that what we gain, but you forgot about what we loose:

- Good small maps for intense close combat. New maps are so large with so low troop density that minimum timelimit of 15 minutes may be spent just to reach enemy positions. Also, most maps are just kind of endless crops and roads, no more rich detailed maps as was in classic CCs.

- Path finding for vehicles (yes, even now it still poor compared to patched CC5)

- Ambushes (instant spotting by enemy on 'Fire' order, enemy see through smoke, cover system completely blown away).

- flexible forcepool adjusting & limitations (all tanks hordes was impossible in classic CCs)

- Clever AI air&arty support use (plows empty land all times)

- Unit balance at all (all MGs fireteams, one-shot killer Panthers, 37mm guns pierce 70mm armor and so on)

That problems may look tiny, but they are crashes game experience. It were the cause of CCMT sudden death after release, and in last two games it present again, forcing peoples to only have fun with themselves in scenario editor. For a full PC A-game price.
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Quote:
37mm guns pierce 70mm armor and so on)


Nothing new. 3.7cm guns took out T34's in CC5, same with US 37mm's and Pz4's. I have never seen any US 37mm take out a Panther with a frontal shot in GTC.



Quote:
New maps are so large with so low troop density that minimum timelimit of 15 minutes may be spent just to reach enemy positions.


I keep seeing this complaint posted here and at Matrix and it just doesn't make sense.. For AI players?? Simply merge the strong unit wise teams with 21 teams with the team weak armored BG's, of which there are several. You can make half a dozen VERY strong teams and then have enough weak teams still to control maps behind lines.

AI players just need to THINK a little about movement and get them into position.
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fry30

Rep: 2.3


PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:49 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Recently played both of the new releases. No direct Ip option is a drag right off the bat, but if you reread what I wrote I compared it favorably to the Microsoft Gaming Zone.

Actually, Firefox, I've played every single Close Combat game released (including CCM and [something else]).

My first post was rather nasty, but I was indeed surprised. On MAtrix's forums, as of last night, they still referred to Panzers in the Fog as the last game of the old engine. It is what it is.

We've always had night battles, at least since TLD, or was that CCV?

I love Close Combat, don't get me wrong. I know I've spoken with you on here ages ago, but I can't remember what about.

Anyways, I can see the differences. Its just a crying shame that Matrix continues to pump these games out. I agree that the latest incarnations have offered more in the way of "features". I actually relish the fact that I can still play new Close Combat games on my ancient computer.

To sum up my feelings, I'll use your quote:

Nomada_Firefox wrote (View Post):


-The game can be modded easily and it has not the older limits.




You are exactly correct. I made a mock up of my college town with help from Peter Fisula all the way back in Close Combat 1. I've played everything from the landings at Crete to Iwo Jima and back again. I just don't think new "features" every year or so justifies another $40-60 for what basically amounts to a "mod."

I don't want my last message to be rude, so I'll just say this: I am so happy that Slitherine has taken over the CC franchise, only good things can happen. I'm just a little upset with Matrix; one or two good releases won't make me any less apprehensive about say, The Bloody First.


Last edited by fry30 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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fry30

Rep: 2.3


PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:53 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Oh and I am not a psychopath, but not having blood to indicate when a member of my squad is killed or incapacitated is beyond frustrating. It goes back to the whole tracers argument, I need some sort of quasi-realistic abstraction to help me know whats going on around me. I really hope they add it as an option in a patch.
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dj

Rep: 157.1
votes: 9


PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:58 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):


Yes, that what we gain, but you forgot about what we loose:

- Good small maps for intense close combat. New maps are so large with so low troop density that minimum timelimit of 15 minutes may be spent just to reach enemy positions. Also, most maps are just kind of endless crops and roads, no more rich detailed maps as was in classic CCs.

- Path finding for vehicles (yes, even now it still poor compared to patched CC5)



Exactly...Nomada is wrong about AI.  The A.I. still sucks and it is because the maps are still way too large.  You can't have the intense close combat like the original series was designed for (especially CC2) when you spend 15 minutes trying to find the A.I. positions or A.I. gets lost / confused on where to find you.

The only solution I can think of is to stop trying to design game for both H2H and A.I.  It neither excels at H2H nor A.I.  

I still buy most of the new games but won't pay full price, I wait for price to come down (i.e. paid only $20 for PitF).  Yes there are improvements but only with graphics.  Not really seeing any significant improvements with the core game play functionality.  The Series has regressed in terms of A.I. gameplay - but improved with some of the graphics.  Rather have seen the opposite.
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Bungarra

Rep: 137.3
votes: 5


PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:14 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Fry30, about the Blood, the development team are well aware that everyone wants Blood, for the same reasons you mentioned.

As far as I am aware, Conrad is working on Blood for the next patch.

It seems its not so simple with sprites & the like to produce Blood as realistically as CCV say.

We just have to wait & see  Wink
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Tejszd

Rep: 133.6
votes: 19


PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:41 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Night battles were 1st introduced in TLD and then added to WAR later with a patch....
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Nomada_Firefox

Rep: 32.9
votes: 9


PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:15 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):

You missed troop&guns transports and better sound.

I did not add these because mount troops is a very useless ability, at least as they made it. The sound can not be counted because everybody can make it and I do not think that this game has better sound.

Quote:

Yes, that what we gain, but you forgot about what we loose:

- Good small maps for intense close combat. New maps are so large with so low troop density that minimum timelimit of 15 minutes may be spent just to reach enemy positions. Also, most maps are just kind of endless crops and roads, no more rich detailed maps as was in classic CCs.

This is fun. For years many people were claiming bigger maps. Now you have them and you want smaller maps. I knew from the begining how the bigger maps would be bad because you can not make a very good IA at big maps, it happens at all games.

However the IA from GTC is better.

Quote:

- Path finding for vehicles (yes, even now it still poor compared to patched CC5)

You are wrong or you put all the problems in the incorrect problem. The path finding is very good, the vehicles find their way easily but.........the map is badly coded for the scale from the vehicles and many paths are too strait.

The unique feature that we lose with movement, it is the feature which it makes the vehicles dancing when you move them against the enemy. Now if you move a vehicle against the enemy, it will make the movement but it will not put the front in the direction of the enemy (the enemy is usually from where you are fired).

In the past, when you wanted move a tank against the enemy and it was at two positions, you could fire your tank in one position and the tank would put his front armor in the direction from your fire. Now it can not be made because it was disabled.

Quote:

- flexible forcepool adjusting & limitations (all tanks hordes was impossible in classic CCs)

It is not true, you could at other CCs easily more tanks than here. The way from CC5 was the best and probably you do not recognize it but the last was is similar to the CC4 where the game select a amount and type of troops by the difficult and other small parameters.

The other features that you say as lose, they are preferences from one player.

Quote:
As far as I am aware, Conrad is working on Blood for the next patch.

Bungarra you are trying to lie us, I do not know what is he making when you do not need more than the panthers in the fog soldier file.

The blood probably was deleted by two one reasons, one, a mistake from somebody or two because you can sell the game to younger people, specially at Steam.
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Antony_nz

Rep: 83.9
votes: 6


PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:20 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Nomada_Firefox wrote (View Post):


The blood probably was deleted by two one reasons, one, a mistake from somebody or two because you can sell the game to younger people, specially at Steam.


No. Get a ww2 history book. Look at the photos. Look for pictures of the dead people.
You can clearly see there is no pool of blood. Im not going to post them here. But I could show you hundreds of photos. None of them show blood that's anything like Close Combat 5s dead sprites.

I'm not saying im for or against pools of blood. I'm just stating a fact.

Personally im now for blood. But I have always thought that dead bodies should look accordingly to how the died.  
Example. Rifle shot/ red dot, bleeding
MG gun/ multiple bullet holes, Bleeding.
Direct artillery hit / missing limbs so on and so fourth.

With Close Combat 5 there was only, incapacitated, Burnt and dead sprite.

I could also suggest things like a dying person crawling around and acting independently or wriggling around in agony. Praying to god, smoking cigarette's.
But somehow I think that's a long time off.  Laughing


http://talesofclosecombat.blogspot.co.nz/
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Nomada_Firefox

Rep: 32.9
votes: 9


PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

The matter here is how it is not the real live, it is a game and without blood, it is less fun.

Quote:
No. Get a ww2 history book. Look at the photos. Look for pictures of the dead people.
You can clearly see there is no pool of blood. Im not going to post them here. But I could show you hundreds of photos. None of them show blood that's anything like Close Combat 5s dead sprites.

About it, clearly and it is not strange, you have not seen at all your live a dead body (even a cow) but there is a reason because you do not see a pool of blood, it is very simple, most of the times, the terrain absorb the blood. Probably if the body was at a different terrain, perhaps above tiling, you would see more blood

But at the end, you do not lose 3 liters or blood at one second and there is not enough blood in a body for a pool. At few words, this is a game.
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Bungarra

Rep: 137.3
votes: 5


PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Just thought I''d put Cathartes post in here Nomada.... You can read it in its original GWTC

For what reason.... & for what purpose.... would I try to deceive you?

Facinating  Shocked


Cathartes
 
Rep: 86.9
votes: 14


PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:43 am Post subject: Re: GWTC - Arty & Mortar Graphics Demo Reply with quote  Report Post
Quote:  <Select>
Do you think it's possible to export them and use for CC5?


yes, sounds are same format as past CC versions

Quote:  <Select>
I really wish there could be an option to toggle blood animation on corpses. (Or at least just put it back as the standard thing)


You can replace them with the sprites from Panthers in the Fog and they will work. In the meantime Conrad is working on getting the new sprites with blood for those that want it.
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

That (blood) also came up during the beta as you recall Bungarra and it wasn't unanimous amongst the testers then to have it or not. Some did, some did not.. Some (like me) cared more about lighting up the screen (darkened part) more and highlighting units themselves than blood.
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dj

Rep: 157.1
votes: 9


PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:00 am Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Nomada_Firefox wrote (View Post):
JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):

You missed troop&guns transports and better sound.

I did not add these because mount troops is a very useless ability, at least as they made it. The sound can not be counted because everybody can make it and I do not think that this game has better sound.

Quote:

Yes, that what we gain, but you forgot about what we loose:

- Good small maps for intense close combat. New maps are so large with so low troop density that minimum timelimit of 15 minutes may be spent just to reach enemy positions. Also, most maps are just kind of endless crops and roads, no more rich detailed maps as was in classic CCs.

This is fun. For years many people were claiming bigger maps. Now you have them and you want smaller maps. I knew from the begining how the bigger maps would be bad because you can not make a very good IA at big maps, it happens at all games.



I do agree with you on that.  Ever since CC5, everything went downhill fast for AI gameplay and since that time, AI has never been the same.  The people that were screaming for the Big Maps for H2H play got their wish.  But in my opinion, it was the biggest mistake ever for CC and you notice the Sales of CC series since CC5 has plummeted.  

Only Panzerjager was able to fix the AI issues with CC5 in his mods.  Other than that the AI is awful.  I have not tried GtC yet but was not that impressed with PitF AI.
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Nomada_Firefox

Rep: 32.9
votes: 9


PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Quote:
Only Panzerjager was able to fix the AI issues with CC5 in his mods

With all my respects to Panzerjager mods, I do not think that he had fixed nothing. The unique improved has been the last CC games. At CC5 you could take a long sleep waiting the IA attack, at GTC, if it is not very far from you, you will be attacked.
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Nomada_Firefox wrote (View Post):
Quote:
Only Panzerjager was able to fix the AI issues with CC5 in his mods

With all my respects to Panzerjager mods, I do not think that he had fixed nothing. The unique improved has been the last CC games. At CC5 you could take a long sleep waiting the IA attack, at GTC, if it is not very far from you, you will be attacked.


The AI was more aggressive, maybe not more intelligent, but they did come in "waves" and it could be quite difficult to repulse an initial Soviet assault the initial several minutes of each scenario, which the outcome of those initial few minutes (a devastating loss of equipment) could dictate how you went about the next several turns. Those wave attacks were different.

Agreed with you that IMO GTC does seem a bit better. I also think pathing is *some* better, but it will never be perfect with this engine and multiple way points always must be set, especially at sticky points, such as curves in roads, bridges etc..
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Nomada_Firefox

Rep: 32.9
votes: 9


PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: They put out another game based on the old engine? Holy Reply with quote

Quote:
The AI was more aggressive, maybe not more intelligent

Tell me a real time game where the IA is intelligent. Laughing The IA always is bad and the unique feature that it can make a bit better, it can be triggers but at this game the unique trigger are the flags and nothing more. I feel that we will need wait to the Bloody First for see something new, a complete CC game with a new engine.

Quote:
but they did come in "waves" and it could be quite difficult to repulse an initial Soviet assault the initial several minutes of each scenario,

Overload the IA faction with better weapons or amount of troops is not new. TT was probably the first making it with his CC4 mods but there are not any improvement from the IA.

Quote:
Agreed with you that IMO GTC does seem a bit better. I also think pathing is *some* better, but it will never be perfect with this engine and multiple way points always must be set, especially at sticky points, such as curves in roads, bridges etc..

People have been speaking for years about the path finding from vehicles as if it was a problem from the engine but I do not think that it was a problem from it. The real problem are how the maps are coded. At GTC, they are very bad coded, I can see how probably they were maps made at first place for the old 16bits and they were coded very fast. By this reason there are problems moving the vehicles. But put the vehicles at a map with better code and you will see a better movement. One small solution can be reduce the amount of elements used by a vehicle, it can be made in data easily, I have not tested it by the moment but probably I will make this type of change. At the end, I will not see any problem if two tanks can be at parallel at one road.
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