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Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

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Siwy89

Rep: 13.1


PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

European countries are not united as they should be. Members of Visegrad Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visegr%C3%A1d_Group) have different approach towards Russia. Poland is most hostile, wanting for more military presence of NATO's forces in the East. Czech Republic and Slovakia dissagrees and Hungary is most pro-Russian country in Europe (energy issues, gas south pipeline). Germans and French will go for diplomatic solutions to the last minute, because of their business associations with Russia and since these two countries have the most real power in European Union, we are doomed for the time being.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
Have to ask also (if u don't mind) have you ever been near a "live" area, or something that was close to it? Live zone hear wasn't an actual firefight, but was near Cuba and picking up refugees, many who were career criminals released (thrown out) of Castro's jails.. His punishment for the US taking the legit refugees. Many had somehow acquired weapons.. Knives, machetes.. It was kind of scary for a kid when your turn came around to unload them from whatever they floated over on, then checking them for weapons, vastly outnumbered.

now, Iam supply officer in reserve Smile.
my grandad (passed away in 2005) was an intelligent officer aboard a Cuban fishing vessel during the Caribian crisis. His crew was the one to intercept a message from the Americans to engage the Soviet subs if they try to break the blocade. And there were a dozen of subs coming there each with at least 2 nuclear torpedos.
So they passed that intercept to an HQ of the Baltic Fleet in Kaliningrad and they stopped the subs.
He got a Red Star order for that.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Don't understand what's happening these days so out of discussion.
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Stayed in The USNR a few years after got out of active duty also Dima, at least until they closed the Pier the Navy was using at St Petersburg (budget cuts) during the mid 80's and moved the last of the sweepers to Jacksonville. Wouldn't have stayed in the Reserves that long, but was close to home and St. Pete had a sweeper like was deployed on in active duty, my favorite ship due to small size and crew that could go out once a month (2 days), 2 weeks a year and any other time they might need us.

Your Grandad had some harrowing stories am sure of that time during the height of the Cuban crisis. Was pretty young then (early 60's). It's when Floridians were building fallout shelters, or what would pass for them, like my own dad did in our back yard. Not that it would have done any good during any kind of war that would have broken out.
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mooxe

Rep: 213
votes: 25


PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Don't understand what's happening these days so out of discussion.


You are finally understanding what we have known for months.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
Dima wrote (View Post):
Don't understand what's happening these days so out of discussion.


You are finally understanding what we have known for months.

not really, you don't seem to understand whats's going on in Ukraine at all in your places.
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mooxe

Rep: 213
votes: 25


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:00 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

What many have expected for so long is happening, the Ukraine will be split up with Russia's intervention. Russia just keeps saying, "we are not in the Ukraine." Foreign minister saying that the latest NATO images published to the media are from computer games. Putin says he has a duty to protect ethic Russians not living in Russia, at the same time he says he is not supporting the separatists in the Ukraine. The end game here is looking more and more like Russia will carve up the Ukraine, and western Ukraine will partner with NATO for protection.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:36 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
What many have expected for so long is happening, the Ukraine will be split up with Russia's intervention. Russia just keeps saying, "we are not in the Ukraine." Foreign minister saying that the latest NATO images published to the media are from computer games. Putin says he has a duty to protect ethic Russians not living in Russia, at the same time he says he is not supporting the separatists in the Ukraine. The end game here is looking more and more like Russia will carve up the Ukraine, and western Ukraine will partner with NATO for protection.

Russian intervention? OSCE and UN mission on the Ukranian border can't confirm that.
I don't know if the pictures are from game or not, but that they are not atributed - that's a fact. Where exactly were they taken? Why no coordinates or anything we can take as a frame of reference. Quite the the same as with MH17.
Russia doesn't need any part of Ukraine for now as it's too expensive. Maybe next financial year Wink.

pay more attention to Syria and Iraq plz, I don't want those facoz coming to us. Why everything you touch becomes like that?
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mooxe

Rep: 213
votes: 25


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:05 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

I have to wonder what constitutes evidence for anyone still believing Russia is not supporting or has troops in the Ukraine. Even the rebel commanders are saying Russian troops are fighting with him, but they are on "leave" haha... I guess you're not a soldier when on leave. Other Russian soldiers caught in the Ukraine were lost apparently.

Ok so everything the USA touches turns into Iraq or Libya... yeah I seen that on RT News also. If we want to play that game again I suppose whatever Russia touches turns into Afghanistan, Chechnya or Georgia? Bring on the mass artillery bombardment to level towns and cities...
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:28 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

There really is no sense in denying the Russian intervention in Ukraine any long Dima, it's just going to become more obvious as time passes. Let it go please, am asking as someone who isn't looking to pick any argument with you over it.

Is there a reason for it? That's for the 2 sides and maybe the Russians to decide as well, but they are there. Too much has come out now.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:28 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
I have to wonder what constitutes evidence for anyone still believing Russia is not supporting or has troops in the Ukraine. Even the rebel commanders are saying Russian troops are fighting with him, but they are on "leave" haha... I guess you're not a soldier when on leave. Other Russian soldiers caught in the Ukraine were lost apparently.

:)

Quote:
Ok so everything the USA touches turns into Iraq or Libya... yeah I seen that on RT News also. If we want to play that game again I suppose whatever Russia touches turns into Afghanistan, Chechnya or Georgia? Bring on the mass artillery bombardment to level towns and cities...

ahha! let's play Smile

1.USSR was in A-stan to fight with the islamic fundamentalists who were taking power in surrounding areas. US and NATO was supporting the islamic fundamentalists in their fight against USSR training and supplying them the most modern weapons. So obviously you guys invested alot of money and time to make A-stan as it is now.

2.Chechna - yes, agree that's what we did to Grozny:


be my guest and compare these photos to Bagdad or Kabul ;)

3.Georgia - yes they the Georgians with a help of their US advisors used MLRS and heavy artillery to level towns, fortunately they didn't have enough time to do that with passion Smile.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:10 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Ok, talked to a friend:

1) We have troops there, but they are fired from army on paper and go there as volunteers (that's why passports instead of dog tags).
2) We don't want Donbas to be part of Russia.
3) We want Donbas to stay in Ukraine.
4) We will send as much troops as needed to assure Kiev they can't win this war.
5) Soon it all will be over.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

The commander of Azov battalion after breaking through Ilovaisk encircelement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV0kwVHVKpY

1. That's not counter-insurgency - that's a real war.
2. We went into a mouse trap without any shot.
3. Don't think the enemy is same imbecillus as we are.

Nice shoulder patch he has, eh?
Tip: 2.SS-PzD Wink.
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Cathartes

Rep: 101.3
votes: 15


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

You have to wonder what is Putin's ultimate strategy: regime change in Kiev, buffer around the Crimea, or complete annexation of the Ukraine (with complimentary democratic referendum where everyone votes to be a part of Russia)?  At any rate, the Russian-invasion-denial is the same pattern that occurred in the Crimea earlier. After a few weeks, Russia will stop denying its troops are there.
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mooxe

Rep: 213
votes: 25


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Yes I know Russia helped rebuild those cities after they completely destroyed them (except in Afghanistan). Kabul or Baghdad would look the same pre and post invasion. Neither city looked anything like this...

But these are besides the point. My point was nobody can win the what-a-about game.



groz.jpg
 Description:
Grozny after Russian bombardments.
 Filesize:  48.61 KB
 Viewed:  307 Time(s)

groz.jpg


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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Cathartes wrote (View Post):
You have to wonder what is Putin's ultimate strategy: regime change in Kiev, buffer around the Crimea, or complete annexation of the Ukraine (with complimentary democratic referendum where everyone votes to be a part of Russia)?

that obviously shows you guys have no clue what is going on in Ukraine:

1. We don't want a regime change as Poroshenko beeing a good friend of Putin and having most candy business with Russia is much better for Russia than Yanukovich for instance who wanted too much money.
2. We don't want Ukraine to be in Russia as it is far beyound our financial capabilities.
3. The EU doesn't want Ukraine as it is a buncrupt and has pretty same amount of population as Greece, Portugal, Ireland and Spain altogether.
4. The main threat is the Ukranian oligarchs like Kolomoiskiy or Timoshenko who can start a new revolution this fall.
  
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
Yes I know Russia helped rebuild those cities after they completely destroyed them (except in Afghanistan). Kabul or Baghdad would look the same pre and post invasion. Neither city looked anything like this...
But these are besides the point. My point was nobody can win the what-a-about game.

War never changes - nice photo of a city after almost 10 years of war and months of close quarter fighting.
Thing is that we won the 2nd Chechen war 13 years ago, pretty same time as NATO won A-stan and Iraq. Now compare Kabul or Bagdad to Grozny. And compare the situations in A-stan, Iraq and Chechna.
So my question remains - why everything you guy touch starts to be worse than it was before you?

And yes, what city did we destroy in A-stan or Georgia?
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mooxe

Rep: 213
votes: 25


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

I brought this point up only because Putin is saying the shelling in the Ukraine is similar to that of WW2. Afghanistan... I have read a  lot of history on the conflicts there and it seemed to be a widely known fact that towns were shelled before entry by Russian ground troops. How far back do we go with this what-a-about game? WW2? I am pretty sure there were some countries better off afterwards and still today...
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
I brought this point up only because Putin is saying the shelling in the Ukraine is similar to that of WW2. Afghanistan... I have read a  lot of history on the conflicts there and it seemed to be a widely known fact that towns were shelled before entry by Russian ground troops. How far back do we go with this what-a-about game? WW2? I am pretty sure there were some countries better off afterwards and still today...

you know Mooxe, the one who doesn't remember his past is doomed to repeat same mistakes over again...USSR invested alot of money in A-stan and built many thousands km of roads, hundreds of schools, several hydro stations and factories.

did NATO assault Kabul or Bagdad?
I recall there was an assault of Fallujah

does it look ok for you?

choose any other city that was assaulted by NATO troops and I will find pictures if that's too hard for you Wink.

You would not like to go back to WW2 as you guys are the only ones besides Germans who were leveling cities with alot of population with bombers. And the yanks are the only one in history by now who used A-bombs against the populated cities.
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mooxe

Rep: 213
votes: 25


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Ok so back to the main point... Nobody can win the what-a-about game because nobody is innocent, including Russia.
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