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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
Ok so back to the main point... Nobody can win the what-a-about game because nobody is innocent, including Russia.

I've already said several posts above that I was wrong thinking we wouldn't send troops there.
So despite a flow of lies coming from Ukraine and West Russia is not innocent for sure.
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Siwy89

Rep: 13.1


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

It is wrong to assume that one country is more moral and ethical than other. This is politics, fight for influence and no one is blameless. We all (Americans, Russians, citizens of UE, etc.) should remember that following propaganda lies is very dangerous to us, normal people.
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Schmal_Turm

Rep: 52.9
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Siwy, I agree wholeheartedly. As a US citizen I always look with suspicion at any actions this country takes or has taken in the past. I was surprised to find out the the federal government back in the early part of the 1900s sent bombers to blast strikers out of the Appalachian Mountains because the owners of the mines wanted it done. Money talks very loudly, and usually gets its way.


"No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy." Moltke
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Quote:
You would not like to go back to WW2 as you guys are the only ones besides Germans who were leveling cities with alot of population with bombers.


Don't go there. The Russians would have (more than likely) had the the technologically advanced bombers. The western allies denied sending them B-17/B-24 and later on, B-29's on purpose.

Only B-25 and B-26's were sent on the lend lease, or what later became "freebie" plan to Russia as far as support aircraft and the USSR preferred the P-39 Aircobra anyway.

Marshal had feelings the 4 engine, long range technology would end up bad in Russian hands during the early 40's and all long range technology was kicked from delivery, even though the Russians continually pressed for it.
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Pzt_Kami

Rep: 44.2


PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:51 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

@johnsilver
Off topic question ! as far as I know Soviets had heavy bombers ,didn't? Tupolev SB , Il-4 , TB-3 and russian heavy bomber Pe-8 are all Russian bomber- heavy bombers that I can recall
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

johnsilver wrote (View Post):

Don't go there. The Russians would have (more than likely) had the the technologically advanced bombers. The western allies denied sending them B-17/B-24 and later on, B-29's on purpose.

The USSR has copied B-29 in 1947.

Quote:
Only B-25 and B-26's were sent on the lend lease, or what later became "freebie" plan to Russia as far as support aircraft and the USSR preferred the P-39 Aircobra anyway.

B-25 and A-20, no B-26 was there.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Pro-Russian forces have said they are fighting against Ukrainian nationalists and "fascists" in the conflict, and in the case of Azov and other battalions, these claims are essentially true.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/08/30/preparing_for_war_with_ukraine_s_fascist_defenders_of_freedom
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Tejszd

Rep: 129.8
votes: 19


PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Not sure when nationalist became a bad thing.

The pro-Russian forces you could say are separatists which usually is considered a bad thing.

The issue, at least to me, is the direct external use of military forces of one country in another. The Russian government to me has no credibility as they denied everything in the Crimea, but later admitted it was their troops, and are saying the same bull about being in the Ukraine. The troops are on leave or left the Russian military but can take artillery/vehicles/weapons???

I have only posted a couple times in this thread as politics can drive people apart when we are all here from all over the world because of CC and hopefully bridging gaps. But it is scary that with all this contact and international sources of news how views seem somewhat predetermined by where you are born....
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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Pro-Russian forces have said they are fighting against Ukrainian nationalists and "fascists" in the conflict, and in the case of Azov and other battalions, these claims are essentially true.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/08/30/preparing_for_war_with_ukraine_s_fascist_defenders_of_freedom  


And?  So what? Are you pointing to the existence of a small Ukrainian nationalist paramilitary unit as justification for Russian aggression? lol.

Dima, this is a waste of keystrokes, but I'll point it out anyways:  a majority of Russians (including probably you) have political leanings that are considered either extremely nationalist, imperialist, communist, or fascist (not to mention there are plenty of neo-Nazis).  You should be more worried about fixing your own backwards, ignorant population.
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:51 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Quote:
The USSR has copied B-29 in 1947.

Quote:  <Select>
Only B-25 and B-26's were sent on the lend lease, or what later became "freebie" plan to Russia as far as support aircraft and the USSR preferred the P-39 Aircobra anyway.

B-25 and A-20, no B-26 was there.


Correct Dima.

The USSR had made copies of the B-29, albeit after the war, not during it while they were seeking improved (reliable) heavy bomber technology, like the B-17 and B-24 that was currently in use by the western allies with heavy payloads, armament and good speed for that period of time. Those being the only 2 currently in production in the world at that time which offered all *3* in one package.

The B-29 was another leapfrog ahead in technology over the B-17/24 with pressurized compartments, larger payloads, speeds and above all? A HUGE uptick in range.

Yes, I mentioned the B-25/B-26 and Invader, more or less Glorified B-26 as being shipped to Russia. Those were medium range bombers, not long range heavy bombers and not seen as capable of leveling.. Say a city, or laying waste to an area. More of use as a tactical weapon, or turned into Gunships (later on B-25G example, A-20 Invader) and the B-26 was a bear to fly anyway. The main flight school was located in Tampa (near to where I live) Pilots took off from McDill, over Tampa Bay, so they would "crash" soft over the bay and have a better chance of survival there.

The saying then was "one a day in the bay" High take off and landing speed made them very dangerous, nearly as much to their own crews as the enemy, never popular with the US, though think the Russians liked them have read? Same with the P-39 Air cobra's.

Know about the B-26's, my dad, during the war took Bomber gunnery school here at Tampa before deploying overseas during '43. He would tell me stories of the crashes. They also still dive on wrecks out there (the bay) of old Marauders.
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:08 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Pzt_Kami wrote (View Post):
@johnsilver
Off topic question ! as far as I know Soviets had heavy bombers ,didn't? Tupolev SB , Il-4 , TB-3 and russian heavy bomber Pe-8 are all Russian bomber- heavy bombers that I can recall


Lack of armament (Pe8) TB-3 was an antiquated, post WW1 design. IL-4 could have possibly worked as a night bomber. Lack of defensive armament, speed and Russia was putting more production into attack bomber, other areas anyway.

Heavy/strategic bombing was just not an area Stalin saw as an area he felt there was anything currently in production, or close to it at "home" that was suitable, though the IL-4 was probably the best of the lot until '47
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:26 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

The regime has repeatedly carried out artillery and air attacks on city centers, creating a humanitarian catastrophe—which is all but ignored by the US political-media establishment.
http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities#
 
Ukraine crisis: the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists
Kiev throws paramilitaries – some openly neo-Nazi - into the front of the battle with rebels

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html
 
Ukraine: This Time, West Sides With Nazis
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-this-time-west-sides-with-nazis/5395916
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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:39 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):

Ukraine crisis: the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists
Kiev throws paramilitaries – some openly neo-Nazi - into the front of the battle with rebels

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html


"Interestingly, many of the men in the (Azov) battalion are Russians from eastern Ukraine who wear masks because they fear their relatives in rebel-controlled areas could be persecuted if their identities are revealed."

Did you read the article you linked to?  That's in the link you provided above.  Most of the guys in Azov, Dneiper, and Donbass battalions are ethnic Russians--says a lot, doesn't it?

Also, no one in the west thinks Ukrainian nationalism is a threat.  Only you Russians hate it because it means the end of your interference in the Ukraine.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Troger wrote (View Post):

"Interestingly, many of the men in the (Azov) battalion are Russians from eastern Ukraine who wear masks because they fear their relatives in rebel-controlled areas could be persecuted if their identities are revealed."

Did you read the article you linked to?  That's in the link you provided above.  Most of the guys in Azov, Dneiper, and Donbass battalions are ethnic Russians--says a lot, doesn't it?

Don't you think that many is not equal to most?

Quote:
Also, no one in the west thinks Ukrainian nationalism is a threat.

I even recall that no one in the West was thinking that the German nationalism was a threat in late 30s.
but seems that the most in the East Ukraine is thinking differently.

and you probably know that same Ukranian nationalists that were fighting the riot police in Kiev half a year ago were fighting against the Russian army in Chechna 15-20 years ago.

Quote:
Only you Russians hate it because it means the end of your interference in the Ukraine.

LOL.
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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:07 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):

I even recall that no one in the West was thinking that the German nationalism was a threat in late 30s.
but seems that the most in the East Ukraine is thinking differently.


Russian imperialism/nationalism/facism/communism (whatever you guys call your little hybrid you got going) and the Chinese are the two biggest threats to this world.  Ukrainian nationalism and German WW2 National Socialists are not analogous groupings.  So no, Ukrainian nationalism isn't a threat, it's actually great, what's not to love about a group of people who are attempting to rid themselves of shitty Russian ways of governance?

Dima wrote (View Post):
and you probably know that same Ukranian nationalists that were fighting the riot police in Kiev half a year ago were fighting against the Russian army in Chechna 15-20 years ago.


Yeah, I know about them.  An miniscule number (~150) of Ukrainians fought against Russia in Chechnya--and that unit was commanded by an ethnic Russian, lol.  Is a 150-man squad that significant to you?  What about the majority (i.e., millions) of your Russian tovarishi who are ignorant stooges, are they significant problem to you? They are a huge problem for us in the west.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Troger wrote (View Post):
Russian imperialism/nationalism/facism/communism (whatever you guys call your little hybrid you got going) and the Chinese are the two biggest threats to this world.

agree about China and that's why we have always more troops next to a Chinese border than in the west part.
but your officials seem to not agree with you:
Islamic State threat 'beyond anything we've seen': Pentagon  
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/21/us-usa-islamicstate-idUSKBN0GL24V20140821
 
Quote:
Ukrainian nationalism and German WW2 National Socialists are not analogous groupings.
 
The Ukrainian nationalism of the 19th and early 20th centuries had been largely liberal or socialist,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists

Quote:
So no, Ukrainian nationalism isn't a threat, it's actually great, what's not to love about a group of people who are attempting to rid themselves of shitty Russian ways of governance?

haha, probably that's why 3,5mlns of Ukranians work in the RF (3mln of them illegally according to the Ukranian social minister S.Tigibko) which is approximately 40% of a total workpower of Ukraine (according to the forbes.ua).
and btw, most of them are from the western areas of Ukraine Wink.

Quote:
Yeah, I know about them.  An miniscule number (~150) of Ukrainians fought against Russia in Chechnya--and that unit was commanded by an ethnic Russian, lol. Is a 150-man squad that significant to you?

which after returned from Chechna in late 90s formed the neo-Nazi groups around them which were the main muscels during the riots in Kiev.
January 2014 - capturing a goverment building in Lvov:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oPNIM_z_Gc
January 2014 - capturing a goverment building in Zhitomir:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOVuXEwPaM8
February 2014 - fighting police in Kiev with fire bombs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEmHR4XTT6E
February 2014 - talking to a prosecutor of Rovensk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1NFNFkKuWc
August 2014 - telling how they torture POWs with needles and pliers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwpBCwl60js#t=46

Quote:
What about the majority (i.e., millions) of your Russian tovarishi who are ignorant stooges, are they significant problem to you? They are a huge problem for us in the west.

sux to be you as you have so many problems you can't solve Wink
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dj

Rep: 140.9
votes: 8


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post):
Siwy, I agree wholeheartedly. As a US citizen I always look with suspicion at any actions this country takes or has taken in the past. I was surprised to find out the the federal government back in the early part of the 1900s sent bombers to blast strikers out of the Appalachian Mountains because the owners of the mines wanted it done. Money talks very loudly, and usually gets its way.


Money always gets it way at least in terms of general trade or government policy.  "Citizens United" Supreme Court decision paved the way for unlimited secret political donations including from overseas.  Net neutrality days are numbered...along with anything else the big $ interests want.  There is a long list of lies, deceit, misinformation and manipulation by governments and yes it is usually due to financial interests not partisan interests.

They don't need to bomb workers or unions any more because most of the jobs have been moved to Commie China & third world slave labor sweatshops. Even though unions are labeled as Commies, Corporations eagerly spend many billions to prop-up Communist regimes...in the greatest transfer of wealth in history.  So much for the threat of Communism when we are financing China and Vietnam for cheap slave labor.


Last edited by dj on Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Troger wrote (View Post):
Russian imperialism/nationalism/facism/communism (whatever you guys call your little hybrid you got going) and the Chinese are the two biggest threats to this world.

agree about China and that's why we have always more troops next to a Chinese border than in the west part.
but your officials seem to not agree with you:
Islamic State threat 'beyond anything we've seen': Pentagon  
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/21/us-usa-islamicstate-idUSKBN0GL24V20140821  


Ah yes, there is also that threat. That's actually probably the biggest threat to all of us.  

Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
Ukrainian nationalism and German WW2 National Socialists are not analogous groupings.
 
The Ukrainian nationalism of the 19th and early 20th centuries had been largely liberal or socialist,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists  


First, OUN doesn't exist anymore.  Second, they weren't socialist--they condemned German national socialism--and they weren't even really a politically-active group (they existed during the times of German and Russian occupation).  

Most Ukrainians would probably be classified as nationalists in some form.  Again, you, as a Russian, don't like Ukrainian nationalism because it sometimes means anti-Russian (especially now).  You should figure out why Ukrainians (and Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Georgians, and every neighbor you have that isn't in the Kremlin's pockets) dislike Russians so much, why they would bother going to Chechnya simply to kill Russians, and why ethnic Russians living in Ukraine would fight for Ukraine.

Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
So no, Ukrainian nationalism isn't a threat, it's actually great, what's not to love about a group of people who are attempting to rid themselves of shitty Russian ways of governance?

haha, probably that's why 3,5mlns of Ukranians work in the RF (3mln of them illegally according to the Ukranian social minister S.Tigibko) which is approximately 40% of a total workpower of Ukraine (according to the forbes.ua).
and btw, most of them are from the western areas of Ukraine Wink.


Got to work to make money to feed your yourself and your family, and Russia is the only place to go for those people.

Ukraine's politics have basically been the same as Russia, mass corruption and power in the possession of a few business elite--so, once you solve that governance problem (which is what the protests were about), Ukrainians won't need to leave their country to go find work in the monster that is the great communist paradise to the east! (of course, it's impossible now with the visa restrictions)

Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
Yeah, I know about them.  An miniscule number (~150) of Ukrainians fought against Russia in Chechnya--and that unit was commanded by an ethnic Russian, lol. Is a 150-man squad that significant to you?

which after returned from Chechna in late 90s formed the neo-Nazi groups around them which were the main muscels during the riots in Kiev.


Some of the more fervent nationalists (not necessarily neo-Nazi) were definitely the muscle in the protests.  Someone has to lead.

There are neo-Nazis in the Ukraine but you probably have just as many neo-Nazis in Russia per capita, and what about all the neo-Bolsheviks and neo-imperialists you have?  Don't those people worry you?  Again, you should worry about your own backwards people.

Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
What about the majority (i.e., millions) of your Russian tovarishi who are ignorant stooges, are they significant problem to you? They are a huge problem for us in the west.

sux to be you as you have so many problems you can't solve Wink


There are solutions to all problems.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Just for you who is really interested to see the problem from the other side of this conflict - a population of the South East of Ukraine (English subtitels, warning 18+ content)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ozdz7fMdXI#t=920
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Siwy89

Rep: 13.1


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Both sides showed cruelty, this is war. Men from "right sector" batalions believs that Ukrainian Uprising Army (rebels from II WW) were great heroes, but in fact, they were murderers. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia  ) I presume that not many amongs you know that part of second world war. I'm not suprised fighters from nationalist batalions are bringing cruelty to people of Donbas.

On the other hand, excavation of mass graves in Sloviansk ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBsEkF_GY0E&index=63&list=PLw613M86o5o5zqF6WJR8zuC7Uwyv76h7R  ) and other known deeds are not making any better for separatists.

There is a third group in this confict- Civilians. People who are innocents, don't understand this conflict and are fed up with this whole war, as usual it is convenient for many to ignore civilian's struggle for survival. I feel for them and what is happening is horrible, so much tragic. Nobody deserves such fate.

War, war never changes.
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