Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:31 pm Post subject: Relatively new to CC
I have difficulties with this game.
1) the line of sights. Despite right clicking everywhere to check for different height on terrain, I consistently misread the map and get annoyed by what seems to me like a flat terrain and I am surprised to discover it is not.
2) the line of sights. Again. Sometimes, I have a line of sight from the middle of a corn field through a lot of terrain. And sometimes, it is red. I don't get it. What is the logic ? The different fields use the exact same texture, the elevation (right clicking) isn't different and the game decide there is or there is no line of sight that can completely break an attack (usually, mortar fire rain down the sky on my infantry that is hidden in a corn field...)
3) Hidden. I don't get how it works. they are supposed to be hiding. Yet, they consistently get spotted at huge distance by common infantry but, at the same time, I cannot see the infantry that spot me. It even happens with scout troops (mine) against erzats.. And the same is true for tanks and guns. I deploy them hidden, yet they got shot as if they were not hidden and they don't even shot back when the first shot missed...
4) Hidden. Again. A section is in a stone building and got shot my another section. I order them to hide. They die anyway. What is the logic ? Do they have infrared vision and shot through walls ?
5) Positioning. Sometimes, I need special troops to have a correct line of sight. That is, for example, a Vickers or a PIAT. However, when I check how they intend to put themsleves at the spot I chose, it is nearly always the complete opposite of what I expected : on the wrong side of a cover, clustered with very poor LOS, etc.. (had a PIAT's assistant who engaged a tank with his rifle while the AT gun of the group was idling with no LOS. Then he surrendered because his Buddy got killed....thats the kind of situation I encounter consistently. It is not "sometimes", it is half the time)
6) Positioning, Again. With vehicles now. That where good LOS are important with minimal exposure. However, most of the time, they chose a location that is between 5 to 10 meters away from the point I gave them. And If I try to send the command again, it doesn't move and ignore the order (the colored dot simply disappear..) And I don't know why, but I consistently see tanks dancing the twist (left right left right with the canon going right left right left) when I order a simple move fast order in straight line...)
7) Moral. How it works ? I butchered a lot of SS (25+), their AT gun, they destroy a single Sherman and I am below them in moral... So the game ends with a "both side were exhausted"... but, on the map, There is maybe 3 ennemy sections left and my team just miss a single Sherman and a scout group. The heck ? That would be no problem now and then. But either it is a one sided game (99% moral on my side, 40% moral on IA) or it is both exhausted. The problem is : Except from the moral bar on the top of the screen, there's not that much difference in terms of casualties..
8) So far, I have yet to found information about the game rules. There is vague informations about moral, leadership, units in the "manual", but absolutely no informations about their effects in the game. It feels like "hey, let's play a game. I know the rules and you don't. So, what's your move ?" "you lost ! KTHX !"
If any veteran that went through this frustration and found a holy graal that makes it clear would like to share his knowledge, I would really appreciate. Because it's only "slightly annoying" at first but then it really ruins my gaming experience when problems happens randomly. Thanks.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:17 am Post subject: Re: Relatively new to CC
It may not be 100% accurate but I'll take a shot at your questions
1 I don't get the question/problem
2 I don't get it. If mortar fire rains down on you there are enemy troops giving away your position to the mortar squads. sneak with the hedgerow more or don't even cross fields.
3 Ambush mode is hide, troops stop and try to find the best available cover if possible, no matter if in a field or in a 3 story house. they won't fire unless target is within 30m and hides troops in open top tanks and vehicles as well from incoming small arms only if at a distance and round can't penetrate armor.
4 You lost me. Depends on what the wall is made out of. A bullet is going to be stopped more easily if you are in a stone building opposed to wood.
5 Made no sense.
6 Sounds like you need to update the game. Could also be rookie drivers, gunners or tank commanders. Keep a good commander near by them in radius.
7 and 8 You have to keep your men alive throughout the campaign to the best of your ability it makes them stronger and raises morale for each unit or person that survives.
from rookie to elite there are many levels. Make the enemy weaker while you get stronger. Keep your leaders alive anchoring attacks from the back. Use the command circle by pressing space bar to see which troops the commander can calm down after the rookies get rallied.
READ BOOKS ON ACTUAL EQUIPMENT USED IN WW2 AND WHAT THEY CAN DO. ALSO PUT YOURSELF IN THAT 2D TERRAIN AND USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE, SUCH AS HIGH GROUND ETC. It will reflect in the game pretty honestly.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:53 am Post subject: Re: Relatively new to CC
Here is a part of the 1/16th of the answer.
With GTC if have noticed too that men position themselves incredibly badly like your PIAT. This seems to be a general problem with crewed weapons (the PIAT is coded as a crewed weapon in this game) that has been observed for a long time and hasn't been sorted. Obviously within a team the crewed weapon should be positioned at the optimal point in the team and it often isn't. Specifically for the PIAT team in this game the team is composed of one or two men that have zero leadership and therefore a prone to behaving stupidly if there is no other team close by to influence them.
Work Around: More the team away, then try to re-insert them to the desired location.
Hint: with AT infantry let them choose when to engage and have a leader near by.
I think other have mentioned that the coding of the terrain elements is not great in GTC and there are mistakes, although the right click will reveal what the coding of the element is correctly.
LOS is often hard to predict for a certain location due to the effects of the terrain that may partially or totally block LOS. Experience of playing on a particular map has advantages.
The moral effect will depend on a number of factors, the settings for the battle group, how exhausted it has become, the moral of the units, and how much you have lost in the battle. The interaction of all these things does give surprising results and well I like that as life is not predictable.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Relatively new to CC
I have been playing for almost ten years. My Experiences:
"Ambush" does not mean, your troops will suddenly become invisible men. If you right click anywhere on the map, at the bottom of the screen, you will see the information about the cover the terrain provides, like "Average", "Poor", "Good", "Great".
About Line of Sights:
In the middle of corn field, it can be tricky, first of all, height of a corn stem can be as high as a person. I consider it would be normal, not to always have a direct line of sight. And about coverage, the same. Line of sight also depends on the coding quality of the map.
CC is not about killing as many enemy as you can. Knocking out just one tank can be important, because of the support it could provide. Same is true for command teams. The most important aspect is the VLs you control.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Relatively new to CC
Hallo CmdGren, first of all what CC version are you talking about? I just bought GTC a few weeks ago, and I know there are some differnces with the earlier (CC3, CC4 and CC5) CC games.
Close Combat is still a game. They tried to make it as real as possible, in some (some that is) cases they got close, in all the other cases they think they got close enough.
So it is not exactly real. You got to get used to it (You ever played or saw CC1? That's a laugh).
1 & 2. Line of sight. I never made a map myself. But you can't trust on what you see on the map. "Underneath" the map we see there is a code for the game to work with. If the map maker(s) made, for us to see, a hole in
the ground to use as cover, but they forgot to code it like that, there will be no cover.
There is, most of the time, NO logic. You have to find out. Sometimes you place a gun without any LOS to the right. When the game starts there is a tank coming from the right, and your gun starts shooting at it !
Sometimes one tank has LOS on your tank, your tank has no LOS on the other?
Some textures, like a cornfield, seems to be coded like just grass. We know a cornfield, in real life, is often taller than a man, it is thick, you can hide in it, it is nearly impossible to see or find you in it. But you don't have any
protection in it, you can fire right through it. I believe the makers of Close combat never saw a cornfield in real live? Or to code it no protection also means you are always visible?
In CC when you are hiding in a cornfield or any open ground, and there are buildings in front of it where there is an enemy hiding, they will almost always spot you. If your troops don't see the enemy they won't fire back. And it is a lot harder to spot the enemy in a building out of a field. Sometimes you don't even see any enemy in a building, when you are already in the building.
3 & 4. Hidden. I don't get how it works either. But I know a few things just from practice. First of all, you got to remember that your troops are unbelieveable stupid. Your command troops are a bit smarter (we are behind our desks, they are in a war situation). How did you put the "Status Indicators" in the "Options"? You should put the "Soldier outline display" on "show cover". When, in deploy, you can always check the cover of your troops. They should have green outlines. When the game starts let them in this cover. When you move a squad, or give an order to fire, they are much easier to spot. If you give the order again to hide, it will take some time (don't exactly know how much) to get in hide mode again. If the enemy spotted one of your troops inside a hedge or building, they know you are in there. They will keep firing at it until you are all dead or they can't see you anymore. They best way to handle this is to give them an order to "move fast" out of or to the back of the building.
Last edited by RD_Cobalth-77 on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Relatively new to CC
Hey CmdGren, I agree with many of your observations if they pertain to GtC.
For better answers please post your question at the Matrix forums where Steve McClare might be able to provide more insight.
1. This is due to the topdown view and how the maps are drawn . 3D terrain would be a great help. Until then it is just a matter of familiarizing yourself with the map.
2. My impression is that this is worse in GtC than let's say CC3, 4, 5. Terrain is coded in element types and each type has a certain height value. This influences LOS (line of sight). If your soldiers are prone they won't be able to acquire LOS on prone soldiers in the same terrain. If your troops are running then they are exposed and can be targeted more easily.
3+4. Ambush is not the same as hidden. If I am not mistaken, in ambush mode the unit waits until the enemy is within point blank range of their weapon, which is a coded weapon value in the data files. If you position your unit in a 2 or 3 level building behind a window you will get spotted. Ambush works better in elements with great cover.
You will get targeted by units at great distance if you are spotted by units at close distance. If one unit spots you, all units will know where you are.
Note that buildings level 2 with floor coding 'wood floor level 2' seem to offer less cover.
5. Yes, positioning can be tricky. Sometimes your unit does not appear to be right behind a wall or hedge, etc. but on top of it or just slightly behind it. This is because of the element coding that uses 10 pixel tiles and is quite often not 100% aligned with the graphics. Also, large units with a heavy crewed weapon can be difficult to position with the crewed weapon carrying team member ending up behind the rest of the team. Heavy crewed weapons slow down your team member and he will lag behind. If the team leader carries the crewed weapon, the team members will stay closer together.
My workaround is to move the dot to a position slightly beyond the location where I want my unit to go and hit defend when it is on the right location.
6. I have also found that giving move orders over small distances does not always work. Workaround: back up vehicle first then move forward again.
7. I believe that moral is affected by the points assigned to units although I have read comments of knowledgeable people that this works differently. However, following my theory, a knocked out tank affects your morale badly if the rest of your battle group is made up of low point units. Better to keep the tank alive . You can use this to your advantage by killing more valueable enemy units first.
8. What vobnobb says. And there is a manual supplied with the game. In Brief: capture more Victory Locations than your opponent. They come in 3 values: 1,2,3, indicated by font size. Exit VL's only got 1 point but you need those in order to be able to move to adjacent maps and to keep open the supply line.
Morale and captured VL's work together in the sense that a big morale drop with only a few VL points captured can kick you off the map.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Relatively new to CC
Thank you all for your replies, In general it is helpful.
So far here's how I will adapt.
1) corn fields. Considering it like a bombarded flat field : there is some treacherous "gap" in the line of sight that gives away your position. However, it is considered flat field for actual covering.
2) Ambush mode. Do not consider it as a "hide command" but consider it as a "shot only when green".
3) Positioning. Do not expect to have an emergency move to be optimal even though it may looks obvious where the gun/vehicle should go. Either it is a broad position and it can be used as an emergency move, or it is a very narrow angle of shooting, and it must be setup way before it is needed with move forward/backward until it connects.
4) Moral. Consider that the perception is not reality. If they percieve they are loosing, they are loosing and their moral is suffering. VL can be helpful for moral. (if I understand it correctly)
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Relatively new to CC
Recode the map YOURSELF!
Sorry if you dont like hearing that but thats the way it is.
The re-released games were made by Amateurs!.
All you have to do is look at the CCIV maps to see this.
Load a CCIV map into Mafis 5CC and you will see what I mean.
Oh Im sorry,
You'll have to learn how to use said tool and understand elevation.
Wacht am the Rhein is the same way as is every re-release.
They were made with a FLAT codded LOS,no chance of LOS based on elevation or other variations.
Thank-You very much for the $50 you just spent on a piece of shit game that will not provide you with proper updates or Honest explanations.
Facts are Facts
You just got Fucked out out of $50
You wont get your ideas fixed
And you wont get a community who will fix them or help you fix them.
And in all honesty a community who probably doesn't understand how to fix them.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:55 am Post subject: Re: Relatively new to CC
The road could have been higher than the cornfield entirely or in certain parts, on your first line it isn't contacting the road yet. Certain tall vegetation in different areas could cause that not a bug, but it is hard to see the terrain layout that way in 2D I agree.
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Relatively new to CC
I understand some of your grievances. And you guys probably right! About the map codding and such..
But i have to say, i don't really have a problem with this picture.
If your going to ambush/shoot at men across the road like that. Your chances are not great when your across the (Corn?) field.
I don't have to much trouble imagining that to the left slightly the view/elevation could obscure all shots.
Is it really significantly worse than other Close Combats?
I'm not a pro. But i instinctively know not to expect a safe shot from that corn field, onto the road.
Thats what i would have expected if i had placed my troops there.
Its like when i introduced Close Combat to my cynical friend. I said its the most realistic war game ever. In the end, he completely agreed with me.
But i remember when he played his first battle. He ordered a recon team forward. There was shells going off.
Immediately he complained that one of his soldiers from the recon team had dramaticly veered off left before straightening up, and joining up with his team.
He claimed its unrealistic. Why would that soldier do that?
So i offered a number of hypothetical scenarios about why would this man turn left like that.
He continued to bitch about it. Then i said, "if i was the maker of the game, and i could make the soldiers walk straight to there target, I wouldn't! "
And when i said i wouldn't fix that even if i could, i think something clicked. And he realised that the fact that some soldiers veer off, is a good part of the game.
Sorry if i have gone off topic a bit.
But what im trying to say is, with Close Combat. You sometimes need to use a little bit of imagination.
Imagine your soldier is veering left because he thought he saw movement in the bush. Imagine he is dodging rocks and trying to get good footing as he makes his way down hill.
Or try and imagine that slightly to the left he cant see shit and cant fire!
Granted, they probably could just use indirect fire...
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