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Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 98.5
votes: 5


PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

"...your troops are a lot smarter in their pathfinding"

Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy  :D

"The AI is quite aggressive right now...."

Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy
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Hicks

Rep: 31.6
votes: 2


PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

If they're using the fixed first two platoons from Panthers in the Fog and Gateway to Caen again then my interest has plummeted in it. Having to play as the US again was already turning me off but the fixed platoons are a major disincentive.
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 98.5
votes: 5


PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:35 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

Hicks wrote (View Post):
If they're using the fixed first two platoons from Panthers in the Fog and Gateway to Caen again then my interest has plummeted in it. Having to play as the US again was already turning me off but the fixed platoons are a major disincentive.


Yes it sounds that way. Third platoon is "support" and can be individually chosen.

I dont mind it personally. But, I got used to CC4 and fixed forcepools.
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dj

Rep: 157.1
votes: 9


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:47 am Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

I hope the 2D "option" is fully supported, the 3D scale (as usual) looks off.  The graphics do look good though.  Not a big fan of the soldier monitor pop-up on top of screen...looks like you don't have to use it I see the right-click style command options.  New screens on Wargamer review are the best look we had in a while.
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Hicks

Rep: 31.6
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:19 am Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

pvt_Grunt wrote (View Post):
Hicks wrote (View Post):
If they're using the fixed first two platoons from Panthers in the Fog and Gateway to Caen again then my interest has plummeted in it. Having to play as the US again was already turning me off but the fixed platoons are a major disincentive.


Yes it sounds that way. Third platoon is "support" and can be individually chosen.

I dont mind it personally. But, I got used to CC4 and fixed forcepools.

I doubt I'll ever get used to CC4. I don't get why when CC3 and CC5 gave options elegantly there was the shift backwards to less control and customisation with PitF onwards.

I can only hope there is a forcepool creation tool for the editor.
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mooxe

Rep: 221.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:47 am Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

The changes were made to reflect someone else's view of realism.

Close Combat has always been pulled in two directions. Simulator and war game.
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Hicks

Rep: 31.6
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:09 am Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
The changes were made to reflect someone else's view of realism.

Close Combat has always been pulled in two directions. Simulator and war game.

I'm just hoping that the forcepools can be easily modified. I think it's a frustration with the connection and history that is made with your troops and then the requisition system negates that, how the player as commander is unable to build and deploy forces that they think will best operate in a situation - particularly when CC3 and CC5 were so brilliantly accomodating.

I was surprised to read the part in the article about the lack of shell craters as well.

I hope this next entry in a series I've grown up with goes well, there's a niggling feeling though as information drips through.
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mick_xe5

Rep: 19.4
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

Hicks wrote (View Post):

I'm just hoping that the forcepools can be easily modified. I think it's a frustration with the connection and history that is made with your troops and then the requisition system negates that, how the player as commander is unable to build and deploy forces that they think will best operate in a situation - particularly when CC3 and CC5 were so brilliantly accomodating.

To be fair, the PITF/GTC req system tracks every soldier in the entire BG, some of which were brigades. Req in CC3 & 5 spawned entire new teams of soldiers and voided the combat histories of every team sent to the rear. Ideally we'd have both - CC2 & 3's what-if/points req for online play/single battles, and PITF?GTCs  req by platoon for campaigning, with full tracking for both. But if only one system can be had I'd prefer the realism of platoon req.  But then Ive always leaned toward CC as simulation rather than wargame.

All the better for 'connection' and immersion that, much like CC3, TBF has a narrow focus on one company. .Looking forward to a GC with a real Band of Brothers feel to it. Cant say I'll miss the strat layer much as it never seemed more than a game of checkers on top of CC's tactical game of chess. Im sure, given Steve's track record for opening up the CC file structures, that my taste for an occasional fantasy scenario like bazookas vs panzers or a lone sniper vs a US BG will be easily modded.
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Hicks

Rep: 31.6
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

mick_xe5 wrote (View Post):
Hicks wrote (View Post):

I'm just hoping that the forcepools can be easily modified. I think it's a frustration with the connection and history that is made with your troops and then the requisition system negates that, how the player as commander is unable to build and deploy forces that they think will best operate in a situation - particularly when CC3 and CC5 were so brilliantly accomodating.

To be fair, the PITF/GTC req system tracks every soldier in the entire BG, some of which were brigades. Req in CC3 & 5 spawned entire new teams of soldiers and voided the combat histories of every team sent to the rear. Ideally we'd have both - CC2 & 3's what-if/points req for online play/single battles, and PITF?GTCs  req by platoon for campaigning, with full tracking for both. But if only one system can be had I'd prefer the realism of platoon req.  But then Ive always leaned toward CC as simulation rather than wargame.

All the better for 'connection' and immersion that, much like CC3, TBF has a narrow focus on one company. .Looking forward to a GC with a real Band of Brothers feel to it. Cant say I'll miss the strat layer much as it never seemed more than a game of checkers on top of CC's tactical game of chess. Im sure, given Steve's track record for opening up the CC file structures, that my taste for an occasional fantasy scenario like bazookas vs panzers or a lone sniper vs a US BG will be easily modded.
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Hicks

Rep: 31.6
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

mick_xe5 wrote (View Post):
Hicks wrote (View Post):

I'm just hoping that the forcepools can be easily modified. I think it's a frustration with the connection and history that is made with your troops and then the requisition system negates that, how the player as commander is unable to build and deploy forces that they think will best operate in a situation - particularly when CC3 and CC5 were so brilliantly accomodating.

To be fair, the PITF/GTC req system tracks every soldier in the entire BG, some of which were brigades. Req in CC3 & 5 spawned entire new teams of soldiers and voided the combat histories of every team sent to the rear. Ideally we'd have both - CC2 & 3's what-if/points req for online play/single battles, and PITF?GTCs  req by platoon for campaigning, with full tracking for both. But if only one system can be had I'd prefer the realism of platoon req.  But then Ive always leaned toward CC as simulation rather than wargame.

All the better for 'connection' and immersion that, much like CC3, TBF has a narrow focus on one company. .Looking forward to a GC with a real Band of Brothers feel to it. Cant say I'll miss the strat layer much as it never seemed more than a game of checkers on top of CC's tactical game of chess. Im sure, given Steve's track record for opening up the CC file structures, that my taste for an occasional fantasy scenario like bazookas vs panzers or a lone sniper vs a US BG will be easily modded.

You've described the sentiment brilliantly. It was th ability to manually refit teams from CC3 that I miss as well, that and the choices it caused if you had limited ability to refit and challenges to account for.

I'm hoping we'll have the ability to withdraw and flee again too. As the maps got bigger and the ai dawdleded, more time was spent waiting around, when you were up against a fight you couldn't win it became a case of trying to break your own troops morale, just to be able to get to the next battle.

Why these things were removed I don't know...
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 98.5
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

Hicks wrote (View Post):
mick_xe5 wrote (View Post):
Hicks wrote (View Post):

I'm just hoping that the forcepools can be easily modified. I think it's a frustration with the connection and history that is made with your troops and then the requisition system negates that, how the player as commander is unable to build and deploy forces that they think will best operate in a situation - particularly when CC3 and CC5 were so brilliantly accomodating.

To be fair, the PITF/GTC req system tracks every soldier in the entire BG, some of which were brigades. Req in CC3 & 5 spawned entire new teams of soldiers and voided the combat histories of every team sent to the rear. Ideally we'd have both - CC2 & 3's what-if/points req for online play/single battles, and PITF?GTCs  req by platoon for campaigning, with full tracking for both. But if only one system can be had I'd prefer the realism of platoon req.  But then Ive always leaned toward CC as simulation rather than wargame.

All the better for 'connection' and immersion that, much like CC3, TBF has a narrow focus on one company. .Looking forward to a GC with a real Band of Brothers feel to it. Cant say I'll miss the strat layer much as it never seemed more than a game of checkers on top of CC's tactical game of chess. Im sure, given Steve's track record for opening up the CC file structures, that my taste for an occasional fantasy scenario like bazookas vs panzers or a lone sniper vs a US BG will be easily modded.

You've described the sentiment brilliantly. It was th ability to manually refit teams from CC3 that I miss as well, that and the choices it caused if you had limited ability to refit and challenges to account for.

I'm hoping we'll have the ability to withdraw and flee again too. As the maps got bigger and the ai dawdleded, more time was spent waiting around, when you were up against a fight you couldn't win it became a case of trying to break your own troops morale, just to be able to get to the next battle.

Why these things were removed I don't know...


Dont forget it's also a business decision. There has to be a large difference between versions to make a case for purchasing the newer one.
Changing the maps or the entire engine is too much (this version excepted) so adding forcepools (CC4), then going back to requisitions (CC5) then going back to points (LSA) then fixed platoons (Pitf) makes for a selling point.
Otherwise it's just a mod or DLC.

This is just my theory, I have no proof but will still argue to the death  Wink
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Hicks

Rep: 31.6
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

pvt_Grunt wrote (View Post):
Hicks wrote (View Post):
mick_xe5 wrote (View Post):
Hicks wrote (View Post):

I'm just hoping that the forcepools can be easily modified. I think it's a frustration with the connection and history that is made with your troops and then the requisition system negates that, how the player as commander is unable to build and deploy forces that they think will best operate in a situation - particularly when CC3 and CC5 were so brilliantly accomodating.

To be fair, the PITF/GTC req system tracks every soldier in the entire BG, some of which were brigades. Req in CC3 & 5 spawned entire new teams of soldiers and voided the combat histories of every team sent to the rear. Ideally we'd have both - CC2 & 3's what-if/points req for online play/single battles, and PITF?GTCs  req by platoon for campaigning, with full tracking for both. But if only one system can be had I'd prefer the realism of platoon req.  But then Ive always leaned toward CC as simulation rather than wargame.

All the better for 'connection' and immersion that, much like CC3, TBF has a narrow focus on one company. .Looking forward to a GC with a real Band of Brothers feel to it. Cant say I'll miss the strat layer much as it never seemed more than a game of checkers on top of CC's tactical game of chess. Im sure, given Steve's track record for opening up the CC file structures, that my taste for an occasional fantasy scenario like bazookas vs panzers or a lone sniper vs a US BG will be easily modded.

You've described the sentiment brilliantly. It was th ability to manually refit teams from CC3 that I miss as well, that and the choices it caused if you had limited ability to refit and challenges to account for.

I'm hoping we'll have the ability to withdraw and flee again too. As the maps got bigger and the ai dawdleded, more time was spent waiting around, when you were up against a fight you couldn't win it became a case of trying to break your own troops morale, just to be able to get to the next battle.

Why these things were removed I don't know...


Dont forget it's also a business decision. There has to be a large difference between versions to make a case for purchasing the newer one.
Changing the maps or the entire engine is too much (this version excepted) so adding forcepools (CC4), then going back to requisitions (CC5) then going back to points (LSA) then fixed platoons (Pitf) makes for a selling point.
Otherwise it's just a mod or DLC.

This is just my theory, I have no proof but will still argue to the death  Wink

That would unfortunately make sense to some extent.

I'd have settled for a variety of different settings and forces over unneeded tweaks. More unique sounds, visualised weather conditions and their effects would be nice inclusions, scaling user interfaces, expanded history and descriptions - drag the game kicking and screaming into the present day if they really want to make changes.

If we have to play as the US again then how about the Marines in the Pacific? Finns, Italians, Soviets, Poles, Canadians, The Eastern Legions, Indians, ANZAC forces anything but BARs and Shermans again please...
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mick_xe5

Rep: 19.4
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

The transition to 3D alone is probably enough "drag the game kicking and screaming into the present day" for the devs I'd imagine. Plus, from the features section of the TBF product page - "For the first time the armed forces of Italy appear in an official release". Dollars to donuts we'll be able to swap the Eyties with 1ID and have an Italian GC.
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Hicks

Rep: 31.6
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

mick_xe5 wrote (View Post):
The transition to 3D alone is probably enough "drag the game kicking and screaming into the present day" for the devs I'd imagine. Plus, from the features section of the TBF product page - "For the first time the armed forces of Italy appear in an official release". Dollars to donuts we'll be able to swap the Eyties with 1ID and have an Italian GC.

I'm not so sure the game needed to go 3D to drag it to now, but the menus and interface I think would need that attention. I wouldn't envy them that though as making a good interface is a challenge.

It's good that they seem to be enabling the player to have 2D top-down style as well as 3D. Options are wonderful.

It'll be great to have Italian forces expanded, I can only hope they become more daring with forces and settings going forward.
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Hicks

Rep: 31.6
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

Something I've wondered for a while; how do you all feel about being able to order the loading of specific types of rounds? I'm just reminded of how specialised rounds were wasted in Gateway to Caen.
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mick_xe5

Rep: 19.4
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

IMO it was high time that CC moved on from the clunky 10x10 or 16x16 pixel grids underneath the map grfx. Coding these for terrain type and elevation was a thankless task. The results were riddled with errors and omissions. And god help the mapmaker trying to code anything not perpendicular to a map edge. That gave us soldiers who looked like they were outside a bldg on the map graphic that were actually in it according to the map.txt. 3D means true slopes and contours rather than a layer cake in 1/2 meter increments. TBF's new viewshed tool, which wasnt feasible in 2D, ought to make us realize how little team-level situational awareness was available doing 'radar sweeps' with the LOS line.
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Hicks

Rep: 31.6
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

The LOS tool looks interesting. There was another project; Art of Combat? Do you think it has given some pressure for TBF to up its game?
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 98.5
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

mick_xe5 wrote (View Post):
IMO it was high time that CC moved on from the clunky 10x10 or 16x16 pixel grids underneath the map grfx. Coding these for terrain type and elevation was a thankless task. The results were riddled with errors and omissions. And god help the mapmaker trying to code anything not perpendicular to a map edge. That gave us soldiers who looked like they were outside a bldg on the map graphic that were actually in it according to the map.txt. 3D means true slopes and contours rather than a layer cake in 1/2 meter increments. TBF's new viewshed tool, which wasnt feasible in 2D, ought to make us realize how little team-level situational awareness was available doing 'radar sweeps' with the LOS line.


Coding - LOL  Rolling Eyes

I'm not concerned about 3D. It's been around for decades.

I'm more concerned about the budget... I find the release of games before they're finished to be frustrating. I hope it's not another bug ridden mess with a promise to "fix things in the next patch" which never actually rolls around.........Hello WAR  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad
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mick_xe5

Rep: 19.4
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

Steve, TBFs lead dev, and Shaun, AoCs project cmdr, worked together on the COI-LSA re-releases so they had  a good grasp of each others capabilities. Unfortunately AoC has been stalled for over a year. Any competitive pressure between the two CC redesigns is gone. However, in this recent interview Steve admits to a different source of pressure - from all the old CC vets! As an old CC fan, modman and toolmaker himself, and since,  a long time official CC dev, 'The Blood!' McClaire has more than just a professional interest in making TBF the best new CC it can be. After ~20 years of investing himself in the game, more so than any 6 of us put together, its surely become a deeply personal commitment as well.

Having seen the wonders he was able to wring out of the creaky CC code to create CCM AT/JTAC, I have faith he'll deliver a solid TBF. Will it please all and be perfect right from the start? Of course not. But it will be mod-friendly and those so inclined can please themselves in changing it to taste. As for the inevitable baked-in bugs...its his code for a game that could just as well be titled "The Bloods!: The Bloody First" so I'd expect he'll expend every effort to correct any errors.
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mooxe

Rep: 221.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Anything At All New On The Bloody First? Reply with quote

There will be bugs. There will be very obvious features that we totally love from the previous versions omitted from this version. There will be features added that will force us to say, "why?"

I beta tested one of the re-releases, I forget which one. A problem during the testing phase was there was very little if any testing over multiplayer. Mostly due to the difficulty of connecting. So the game missed a level of scrutiny it would of otherwise had. For example in CC5 bugs that only show up in multiplayer are, only host sees muzzle flashes, wrecks in different spots... there are more... Most players were bashing through single player vs the very boring AI. I think maybe if we had beta testing goals we could have found more bugs. Oh and beta testing was literally right on the heels of release so in reality nothing but the most basic bugs would get fixed.

The isometric view could have been improved on without going to 3D. One example is to view is MechCommander Gold. A superior isometric view with deformable terrain and buildings from 1999. Now check out how they upgraded to 3D in MechCommander 2 in 2001.
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