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Bungarra

Rep: 100.6
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:36 am Post subject: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

Wiki ...
In the First World War, Imperial German submarines had been transported via rail to the Pola Flotilla based in the Adriatic. With Turkey as an ally of the Central Powers, the Imperial German Navy could also access the Black Sea via the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus, where the Constantinople Flotilla was based. In the Second World War, during Operation Barbarossa, the Luftwaffe engaged the Soviet Black Sea Fleet, but at the Romanian Siege of Odessa (1941), the evacuation of the Red Army forces via the sea could not be prevented with the meagre naval forces available. In October 1942, the 30th Flotilla under the command of Kptlt. Helmut Rosenbaum was founded.[1] With Turkey remaining neutral, access via the Bosphorus was not feasible. It was decided that small vessels, torpedo boats and U-boats, should be transported from the German Bight via the Danube to the Black Sea. The predecessor to the modern Rhine–Main–Danube Canal, the 19th century Ludwigskanal, was not suitable, though, so transport via land was necessary.

Six U-boats of the rather small coastal submarine Type IIB, which at the time served as training vessels in the Baltic Sea, were assigned to this flotilla in being. Starting from May 1942, they were partially dismantled in Kiel, to reduce weight and size. Toppled over 90°, and fitted with additional floating devices, the stripped down hulls, weighing 140 tons, were shipped through the Kiel Canal and on the Elbe up to Dresden-Übigau, where they were placed on two 70 ton Culemeyer road transporters[3] hauled by Kaelble tractors. The boats then traveled at an average speed of 5 mph over the Reichsautobahn (modern day A4 and A9) to the slipway in Ingolstadt. Traveling down the Danube, one obstacle[4] was the old Stone Bridge of Regensburg with its arches. Eventually, the submarines arrived in the Romanian port of Gala?i where they were re-assembled by the Romanians at the Gala?i shipyard.[5]

The first boat started to operate from the Romanian port of Constan?a in October 1942, the last joined in May 1943. Despite carrying only five torpedoes, the Type II boats were effective[6] in the Black Sea theatre. In total, 26 ships with 45,426 tons were sunk. U-20 was a lucky boat[7] sinking 15 enemy ships with 38,500 tons without suffering casualties amongst her crew.

When the Romanians switched sides in 1944, U-9, U-18 and U-24 were scuttled near the harbour, and later raised by the Soviets. The Flotilla's history ended in September 1944, when its three last boats U-19, U-20 and U-23 had to be scuttled[1] on 10 and 11 September near the Turkish coast.

https://www.dailysabah.com/history/2019/02/01/german-wwii-submarine-found-in-black-sea-off-the-coast-of-istanbuls-sile


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Bungarra

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votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:29 am Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

Apoligies... it said it did not post.... but........


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JFFulcrum

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:45 am Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

Yeah, that was a big fail of Russian Black Sea fleet to allow Germany built entire fleet on Black sea from scratch. But, being almost decimated by Luftwaffe, it was once more proved useless of blue-water navy`s without proper air support.
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reconscout

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

Thanks for the history lesson, I did not know about u-boats being there.


that which does not kill you makes you stronger
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dj

Rep: 123.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:57 am Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):
Yeah, that was a big fail of Russian Black Sea fleet to allow Germany built entire fleet on Black sea from scratch. But, being almost decimated by Luftwaffe, it was once more proved useless of blue-water navy`s without proper air support.


I don't think the Germans or their allies were that formidable vs much stronger Soviet fleet in Baltic.  And Romanian really only had gunboats not real navy vs Russia.  Yes air support also a big question mark as the Germans really only managed to keep air superiority for a year.
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dj

Rep: 123.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

Correction ...meant to say the Germans and their allies were not that formidable in the Black Sea.  But they were formidable in the Baltic.
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sample

Rep: 59.2
votes: 3


PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:13 am Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

dj wrote (View Post):
JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):
Yeah, that was a big fail of Russian Black Sea fleet to allow Germany built entire fleet on Black sea from scratch. But, being almost decimated by Luftwaffe, it was once more proved useless of blue-water navy`s without proper air support.


I don't think the Germans or their allies were that formidable vs much stronger Soviet fleet in Baltic.  And Romanian really only had gunboats not real navy vs Russia.  Yes air support also a big question mark as the Germans really only managed to keep air superiority for a year.


The Romanian Royal Navy started the war with 40 main military ships: 23 in the Sea Naval Force on the Black Sea and 17 the River Division on the Danube. The most important Romanian warships were 4 destroyers, NMS Regele Ferdinand, NMS Regina Maria, NMS Marasesti and NMS Marasti, and 1 submarine, NMS Delfinul. Later in the war 2 other submarines, NMS Rechinul and NMS Marsuinul, and 1 mine-laying ship NMS Amiral Murgescu joined the Sea Naval Force. While the submarines only managed to sink 1 cargo ship during the entire war, the destroyers performed many convoy escort missions from Romanian ports to captured soviet ports. One of the reasons for the "big fail of Russian Black Sea fleet to allow Germany built entire fleet on Black sea from scratch" was the defensive sea mine belts set up by Romanian Royal Navy at the start of the Operation Barbarossa along the Romanian coast and later the occupied soviet coast. This defensive belts played an important deterrent role for any soviet naval incursion against Romanian home ports in the aftermath of Raid on Constanta, in 26 June 1941. This action was the only encounter between major warships in the Black Sea during World War II, and resulted, for soviets, in a complete loss of one destroyer leader and a damaged cruiser to Romanian sea mines (the entire attack force comprised of two destroyer leaders tasked  to bombard the port, and a cruiser and another destroyer acting as cover force).

More information about the Romanian Royal Navy one can read here (the link is in English): http://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=25

regards,
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JFFulcrum

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:28 am Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

sample
Thanks for information

Quote:
NMS Regele Ferdinand, NMS Regina Maria, NMS Marasesti and NMS Marasti

Of these four only first two was up-to-date destroyers, other two was a WWI-era ships in bad conditions.

Code:
This defensive belts played an important deterrent role for any soviet naval incursion against Romanian home ports in the aftermath of Raid on Constanta, in 26 June 1941

The belts (completed with outdated sea mines) became trouble only when soviet ships lost their anti-mine paravans. The key role in repel of soviet attack on Constanca was 'Tirpitz' 11-inch, radar-guided coast battery, built by Germany in 1940. It was a no-match for involved soviet ships (even cruiser had only 7-inch artillery), so they was forced to go-off at full speed, lost paravans and than hit by mines.

BTW, both Romanian and Bulgarian Navy`s was surprisingly effective in anti-submarine duties. Both scored one submarine each in direct actions, eleven more soviet subs was lost in mine and net defenses in their waters.
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sample

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):
sample
Thanks for information

Quote:
NMS Regele Ferdinand, NMS Regina Maria, NMS Marasesti and NMS Marasti

Of these four only first two was up-to-date destroyers, other two was a WWI-era ships in bad conditions.


While I agree with you that NMS Regele Ferdinand, NMS Regina Maria were more modern in terms of hull design and propulsion, been commissioned into the Romanian Navy on 7 September 1930, NMS Marasesti and NMS Marasti, a WW1 design, were hardly in bad conditions: throughout the war, M?r??ti carried out a total of 28 escort missions and M?r??e?ti 21. There were 6 escort missions in which both warships took part, resulting in a grand total of 55 escort missions. Been Romanian, I have read many books about our navy and I have not seen any reference to the bad condition of those ships during war.

From my point of view, when we look at some specific event, like the raid on port Constanta, what matters is what happened after: the soviet navy didn't engaged their surface ships against the axis surface ships for the rest of the war, using aircraft and submarines instead. Just look at the Operation 60000, the Romanian Dunkirk, in which, between 14 April – 13 May 1944, 120,853 men and 22,548 tone of cargo were evacuated by sea from Crimea. The loses on Axis side were caused only by submarines, air attacks and field artillery, not soviet surface ships (more info here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?article=776). If the soviet Navy would have decided to use the superiority in surface ships against the slow moving transport ships, most likely those 120,853 men would have been killed at sea or captured when the battle for Crimea in 1944 was over. The loses for the Germans in this battle were 31,700 killed or missing with other 33,400 wounded and Romanian Army lost 25,800 killed or missing and 5,800 wounded, in all 96,700.

regards
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sample

Rep: 59.2
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):
sample
Thanks for information

Quote:
NMS Regele Ferdinand, NMS Regina Maria, NMS Marasesti and NMS Marasti

Of these four only first two was up-to-date destroyers, other two was a WWI-era ships in bad conditions.


While I agree with you that NMS Regele Ferdinand, NMS Regina Maria were more modern in terms of hull design and propulsion, been commissioned into the Romanian Navy on 7 September 1930, NMS Marasesti and NMS Marasti, a WW1 design, were hardly in bad conditions: throughout the war, M?r??ti carried out a total of 28 escort missions and M?r??e?ti 21. There were 6 escort missions in which both warships took part, resulting in a grand total of 55 escort missions. Been Romanian, I have read many books about our navy and I have not seen any reference to the bad condition of those ships during war.

From my point of view, when we look at some specific event, like the raid on port Constanta, what matters is what happened after: the soviet navy didn't engaged their surface ships against the axis surface ships for the rest of the war, using aircraft and submarines instead. Just look at the Operation 60000, the Romanian Dunkirk, in which, between 14 April – 13 May 1944, 120,853 men and 22,548 tone of cargo were evacuated by sea from Crimea. The loses on Axis side were caused only by submarines, air attacks and field artillery, not soviet surface ships (more info here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?article=776). If the soviet Navy would have decided to use the superiority in surface ships against the slow moving transport ships, most likely those 120,853 men would have been killed at sea or captured when the battle for Crimea in 1944 was over. The loses for the Germans in this battle were 31,700 killed or missing with other 33,400 wounded and Romanian Army lost 25,800 killed or missing and 5,800 wounded, in all 96,700.

regards
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sample

Rep: 59.2
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

Quote:
Of these four only first two was up-to-date destroyers, other two was a WWI-era ships in bad conditions.


While I agree with you that NMS Regele Ferdinand, NMS Regina Maria were more modern in terms of hull design and propulsion, been commissioned into the Romanian Navy on 7 September 1930, NMS Marasesti and NMS Marasti, a WW1 design, were hardly in bad conditions: throughout the war, M?r??ti carried out a total of 28 escort missions and M?r??e?ti 21. There were 6 escort missions in which both warships took part, resulting in a grand total of 55 escort missions. Been Romanian, I have read many books about our navy and I have not seen any reference to the bad condition of those ships during war.

From my point of view, when we look at some specific event, like the raid on port Constanta, what matters is what happened after: the soviet navy didn't engaged their surface ships against the axis surface ships for the rest of the war, using aircraft and submarines instead. Just look at the Operation 60000, the Romanian Dunkirk, in which, between 14 April – 13 May 1944, 120,853 men and 22,548 tone of cargo were evacuated by sea from Crimea. The loses on Axis side were caused only by submarines, air attacks and field artillery, not soviet surface ships (more info here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?article=776). If the soviet Navy would have decided to use the superiority in surface ships against the slow moving transport ships, most likely those 120,853 men would have been killed at sea or captured when the battle for Crimea in 1944 was over. The loses for the Germans in this battle were 31,700 killed or missing with other 33,400 wounded and Romanian Army lost 25,800 killed or missing and 5,800 wounded, in all 96,700.

regards
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sample

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

apologies for the triple posting, please delete the last 2 duplicates

thanks,
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JFFulcrum

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

Quote:
I have not seen any reference to the bad condition of those ships during war.

Thats was concluded by soviet fleet officers in 1944 at time of seizure. The hulls of ships were found in so bad conditions that it was just dangerous for them to go to the sea. Probably only extreme needs for transports forced Romanian Navy to use them in 1943 evacuation from Sevastopol. If i remember correctly, M?r??ti had an open leak in his last trip from Sevastopol, and on return was immediately placed into repair.

Code:
not soviet surface ships

Well, there was number of reasons:

First, no capital soviet ships was ready to that time. The only dreadnought 'Sevastopol' in fire support missions for troops during 1942 wear-out its main guns. The only factory capable to produce replacement was in sieged Leningrad. 'Molotov' light cruiser was near crippled in 1943 by combined attack of He-111 torpedo bombers and Italian MAS torpedo boats and spent a year in repair (including full replacement of stern). Dated ' Krasny Krim' and 'Krasny Kavkaz' cruisers was nearly worn out, first one was placed into capital repair too. 14 destroyers was already lost, including three at once in infamous operation against german convoy 5.10.1943

Second, the Black Sea fleet still lacks long-range fighters, capable to support ships in open sea, even in 1944. Main fighter at that time was lend-leased P-40, not so effective in both terms of range and performance for fleet support duties. Attempts to use ships without air support will likely only leads to new losses.

Third, and main - after the 5.10.1943 disaster (loss of three destroyers in row), Soviet 'Stavka' (i.e. Stalin himself) prohibited any operations of capital ships on Black sea without direct order. So soviet admiral Basisty was forced to use only aviation and torpedo boats against Axis withdrawal from Crimea.
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Bungarra

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:21 am Post subject: Re: U23, 30th flotilla, Hitlers lost fleet filmed Reply with quote

Thankyou all for contributing to this really interesting theatre of The Eastern Front War

There is so much I have learned here about something I had no Knowledge of...

Bungy


You know if you don't live it.... You can't give it.
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