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TankReg

Rep: 0.3


PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:16 am Post subject: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

This is a more general question for all CC games but it applies to PITF which I am playing now. Is the armor thickness on Tigers Is listed correctly?

It seems they always die so quickly, then I check vehicles file to see they have much less armor than Panthers and I edit the values to be more realistic. Afterwards they are virtually indestructible unless hit from the side or rear, even at point blank range. Challenging when playing as allies but playing as the Germans it kind of makes the game too easy, especially vs AI.

I've added more tanks to U.S. tank platoons, they now have 9 each plus more A176 models per platoon. Still, U.S. tanks will not even fire at a forward facing Tiger, nor will they retreat, move to cover, or try to flank, they just pop some smoke and wait to be brewed up. It would be nice to see U.S. tanks at least engage the Tigers, even if it only has a suppression effect or possible damage to the tracks or turret. The 57mm AT guns are basically useless vs Panthers or Tigers. 3 inch guns do OK vs Panthers but are so few in the game, if I can figure out how to add more it would be good, 90 mm guns I have not seen in game to test vs Tigers, adding some of them would be good too.

What are your thoughts? And how best to add the 3 inch and 90 mm guns to American battle groups?

Thanks.
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 170.8
votes: 11


PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:05 am Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Great topic for your first post on the forum TankReg! - You are very welcome here - new modders seems far between these days:)

Although the Tiger has a high standing reputation and combat record for protecting crewmembers, in real life it actually had thinner frontal armor than a Panther because its plates were almost vertical, whereas the Panther had angled armor all over. Lets take a close look at the values and differences in real life and in PITF:

THE PANTHER:

The real life Panther has a front plate that is 55 degrees angled and it is 80mm thick. - This angle increases the effective armor that a round has to penetrate to about 139mm when hit directly from the front - PITF has this (Hull armor, front medium) at 139mm - so that is spot on.

When the gun firing at this front plate is itself angled to the front IE - Is placed to the side , but still on the same horizontal plane, a double or compound angle is created for the shot and the effective armor is increased again. - For an incoming round from a 45 degree angle to the front plate the effective armor will be 196mm!

Quite an incredible value, but CC can actually model this with the "Hull Armor, Front - Side Medium" value, but here PITF value is set at a mere 131mm. This is obviously totally wrong, but probably done for gaming reasons.

Tiger:

Tiger hull has a front plate of 100mm set at 9 degrees angle from vertical giving an effective armor of : 100mm. - PITF has this at 105mm - I would say close enough, because there are other surfaces on the Hull front too that must be counted in this value.

A shot from 45 degrees to the side must penetrate 140mm. The game has this value at 123mm wich is closer to what it should be than it was with the Panther values  - So there is not consistency of the game values strenghtning my belief of game reasons for keeping these values down.

There are tons of penetration data for guns out on the WildWildWeb so I wont go into that more than these cool WW2 illustrations I found.

I think they illustrate very well the differences between Tiger/Panther armor and firing from an angle vs straight on the surfaces.

Regarding modding the armor and guns I will say that its a rabbit hole that you have poked into by editing the Tiger armor values, the armor and gun penetration data might not be totally correct in the stock game, but they are still balanced for gameplay in a way.
If you start to edit something it will affect something else in a way.. And it might not be expected:) But be my guest and mod away! - Its great fun!

- For an allied player getting frustrated over hard to kill german tanks - that is how it really was in 1944. They had to use other advantages to win - like a great supply system and LOTS of tanks - numerical superiority, not to forget an insane amount of artillery fire and total air superiority.
Deprieving the German army of their supply lines. This is modelled in the game and can be done by the allied player. - There are many ways of hunting cats:)



17 pdr vs Panther and Tiger.jpg
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17 pdr vs Panther and Tiger.jpg



75mm vs Tiger and Panther.jpg
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75mm vs Tiger and Panther.jpg




Last edited by ScnelleMeyer on Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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TankReg

Rep: 0.3


PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:26 am Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Great post, most appreciated Scnelle!

I'm very new to modding but it's a great way to add new experiences plus keep the game exciting and challenging.

Do you have any suggestions on how to get the Tiger as close to historically accurate/balanced for gameplay as possible?

Thanks again!
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mooxe

Rep: 175.9
votes: 23


PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:03 am Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Hi Tankreg, welcome to the site.

Its hard to balance one unit in Close Combat without the remainder of the units becoming unbalanced. The Tiger should be very difficult to knock out from head on. So difficult that your opponent should avoid any head on engagement unless he has a 17pdr gun. The player who has the Tigers should avoid anything but a head on engagement.

Theres quite a number of ways to hunting this cat as Scnellemeyer says. Increasing/decreasing ammo, modifying allied ammunition strengths, changing morale/exp/intelligence and you have already done one method by adding more armour to opposing BGs.

The overall best way to eliminate heavy tanks is by strategy. Cut off the opponents supply and just go for tank immobilizations. What I mean by that is once a tank is hit and immobilized, disengage, theres a 60% chance the tank is lost after the battle. Immobilizations by lack of fuel won't count here, it has to be damage from enemy fire.
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 170.8
votes: 11


PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you have any suggestions on how to get the Tiger as close to historically accurate/balanced for gameplay as possible?


What I would do with the Tiger I (and I might just do that in my own little PIFT mod) is to adjust the armor values in the data to account for the correct effective armor for the different angles in the data entries.
I would use an armor calculator in excel for this, where you input thickness and angles and it outputs the effective armor for the different entries.

Doing this for the Tiger I would feel compelled to do the same for all other tanks as well... - But that might just be me:)


Quote:
The 57mm AT guns are basically useless vs Panthers or Tigers. 3 inch guns do OK vs Panthers


57mm and even 37mm on the Stuart will not penetrate Panther or Tiger FRONT armor except when a lucky (Critical) hit is obtained. - Both should pen side armor of Panther and 57mm will pen side of a Tiger. 3 Inch will pen Tiger front, but not Panther except if the Gun has a height advantage.
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 170.8
votes: 11


PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:07 am Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

I wipped up this visual guide to Armor values in Close Combat.


Armor angles CC data.png
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Armor angles CC data.png


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GameRat

Rep: 34.4
votes: 2


PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:24 am Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

great visual representation ... thanks ScnelleMeyer
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 170.8
votes: 11


PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:08 am Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Thanks - just glad if it could help fellow modders get these values in.
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mooxe

Rep: 175.9
votes: 23


PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Yah agreed, thanks for that. I was wondering what all those values meant last time I looked.
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Sequoia

Rep: 23.8
votes: 1


PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Hello:

In a operation (or short campaing?) LSA played against the BG with a handful of Konigstigers and few infantry squads. Only destroyed 1 KT with a Firefly from 5 O'clock. One Inmobilized with a PIAT team. Against the rest of Tigers just artilllery/mortar/plane attacks and captured the exit VL coonecting to supply depot map. The infantry was few, just ambushed it outside of Tiger LOS.

In CC4 ambushed and destroyed a Panther with a short range side shot from a M8 Greyhound hide behind a building.


Thanks ScnelleMeyer for the visual guide


Bye



Greyhound Bronze Star (X2).jpg
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 170.8
votes: 11


PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Cool report Sequoia - and well deserved Bronze stars to the crewmembers of that M8 Greyhound !
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ke_mechial

Rep: 75.6
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:12 am Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Today my 57 mm AT team took out a panther with a side shot, it seemed appropriate here so I wanted to share.  Smile I didn't aim, AI did it.


panther.jpg
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Pete

Rep: 106
votes: 12


PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

ScnelleMeyer wrote (View Post):
I wipped up this visual guide to Armor values in Close Combat.


Great guides Schnellemeyer!


Dulce Bellum Inexpertis
(War is delightful to those who have no experience of it.)
Our facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/buckandpete/
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 170.8
votes: 11


PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Thanks Pete!
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Schmal_Turm

Rep: 46.2
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

I guess I never found some of these forums before but I have to disagree with one thing, ScnelleMeyer. My research has shown that the Panther at the hull front upper glacis is equal to 177 mm. I also read where the Tiger I crews were instructed to approach the enemy at about a forty-five degree angle which would significantly increase the 100 mm frontal armour and give significant angle to the side also. Not sure how much that would make the front but I am assuming it could be as much as 150 or more.


"No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy." Moltke
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dvphimself

Rep: 12.2
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:32 am Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Wow Schnellmeyer I just learned a lot. Thanks!


*******************Sergeant Darling's Victoria Cross******************
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qwaqwe

Rep: 26.7


PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

I never saw Tigers in PiF.  Shocked

How can i cause them to appear?
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Jatke

Rep: 14.6
votes: 2


PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:45 am Post subject: Re: Question on armor/gameplay for Tiger tanks Reply with quote

Tigers are here:
KG  Wünsche / 12.SS Panzer Division

1. Kompanie / SS-Pz.Rgt. 12
2. Kompanie / SS-Pz.Rgt. 12
I. / SS-Pz.Rgt. 12
SS-Panzer Regiment 12
9. Kompanie
10. Kompanie
11. Kompanie
III. / SS-Pz.Gr.Rgt 26
12.(s.) Kompanie
1. Kompanie / s.Pz.Abt. 503
2. Kompanie / s.Pz.Abt. 503
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