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nikin

Rep: 15.7
votes: 8


PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: Vehicle data in CoI and RealRed Reply with quote

Playing CoI winter 1943 (Operation Star) - time of appearance Tiger I in the game, i am convinced that Tiger I absolutely useless cardboard tank. Of the four head-duels with T-34/76 all lost.

The reality was different, Tiger I - was the best tank in the world during the summer of 1942 and by end of 1943. It had better armor and better guns at the moment. T-34/76 gun does not break frontal armor of the Tiger I (up to 130mm) from virtually any distance. In addition to the sight and gun Tiger I had an advantage in the rate of 5 to 7 rounds per minute (T-34 - 1-2). Something Tiger I surpassed even the later Panther - a more robust and thicker side armor (the first German tank with a circular armor). More than adequate contenders have appeared only in 1944 - IS-1 and IS - 2, but they do not exceed the Tiger.

After reading this, I opened the data file Vehicles.txt with QClone.
The first conclusion - the data CoI 99% correspond to CCIII RealRed (copied).
Then I looked at three columns - named QClone - hull armour front low, hull armour front med, hull armour front high. This data frontal hull armor (in mm of penetrable steel):

Tiger I - 132, 115, 105
T-34 (all mod) - 225, 127, 87
KV (all mod) - 112, 93, 82
Panther (all mod) - 291, 184, 135
IS  (all mod) - 600, 339, 233
Kingtiger - 424, 291, 224
SU-152 - 829, 300, 170
Ferdinand - 248, 220, 205
T-26 !!!!!! - 814, 126, 58

Draw your own conclusions.
Question to developers RealRed - either these data mean something else, but not the thickness of armor, or from a mismatch between actual data?

I apologize for my English ...
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tigercub

Rep: 23.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:27 am Post subject: Re: Vehicle data in CoI and RealRed Reply with quote

There are many things to take into account slope of armor ,how good the armor if it rolled ,face hardened, russian stuff not so good, and how its put together bolted,welded and others ...I can say its first action by the Tigers out side leningrad in late 1942 was a total mess they got boged in the mud and knocked out.
Also the ammo fired at the armor has to be taken into account....russian rounds were very poor and fired at face hardened  armor on the tiger a lot of the time would just break up.

The number of 225 for the T34 is way over done...90-65 on the front of a is more like it should be...the real hull armor on the front of a T34 is 45mm but the slope adds more pertection...but number of 225 is crazy...like with a lot of the other tanks you mention.

weak spots in armor like view ports also should affect this number.
the game has a random built into it so anything can happen


Tigercub


The best Target is the one you just Hit!

Started with CC1 Demo
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ArmeeGruppeSud

Rep: 9.5
votes: 7


PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Vehicle data in CoI and RealRed Reply with quote

G'day nikin

Must say i totally agree with you about that awful data

The original CC3 and RR(COI) armour profile data is completely unrealistic!

Also i must agree with tigercub too, armour quality also makes a BIG difference!

Most russian armour was die cast steel alloys, whereas most German armour was forged hardenned steel plates welded together.
Thus 10mm of German armour was probably equivalent to at least 15mm of Russian armour!

The hull armour of a T34 was only 45mm thick.

But, the frontal hull armour was sloped at 30º from horizontal (60º from vertical).
At this angle, it effectively doubles the relative armour thickness a horizontally travelling projectlie must pentrate.
This gives the T34 an effective, relative armour thickness of 90mm.
We can assume that they have added extra thickness on top of the relative armour thickness to account for "deflect" effect of sloped armour.
But even still, those figures were still very unrealistic

Here is an online relative armour thickness calculater
http://www.panzerworld.net/armourcalculator

In DOF, which you think is &??*@%, the T34's front hull armour value is only 90mm (relative armour thickness).

Despite your crticism  Razz , DOF still has the best CC equipment data available (all versions! Some CC5 players have asked me to do data for CC5).

The Tiger's armour and gun dominate the battlefield as it should.
The Tiger is also uncommon as it should be too  Wink (less than half as common as RR/COI)

CHEERS

AGS

.


RIP

http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10576
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dj

Rep: 141.9
votes: 8


PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Vehicle data in CoI and RealRed Reply with quote

Ok yes Tiger is a fine tank and one-on-one outmatched any allied tank until '45.  The problem was the German manufacturing capacity was hopefully outmatched.
They only produced less than 1,500 Tigers.  Whereas the USSR produced mind-boggling numbers of T-34's and heavy tanks.  Still it is amazing the Germans were able to survive as long as they did against these impossible odds.


What will the Revolution Change? - Youth Brigade
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acebars

Rep: -6.7
votes: 2


PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Vehicle data in CoI and RealRed Reply with quote

Out of interest is there any concensus on what the values for the Tiger should be? I too always found the Tiger unusually weak but I always liked it oddly.

On another note about vehicle data, I'm rather fond of 20mm cannons but I find all the 20mm cannons mounted to tanks and vehicles only have around 100 ammo which is really nothing (whereas the infantry support 20mm cannon has 400 rounds!), I read somewhere that the PzIID 20mm in reality carried at least 200 rounds (and with this amount its at least worth buying).

Is there any guide for editing data and a smooth way to install the data? Perhaps a modding guide?

Any pointers would be appreciated.
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Serkr

Rep: 2.8


PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:33 am Post subject: Re: Vehicle data in CoI and RealRed Reply with quote

Does anyone know whether a mod ever fixed this issue?
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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 7
votes: 9


PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Vehicle data in CoI and RealRed Reply with quote

Serkr wrote (View Post):
Does anyone know whether a mod ever fixed this issue?


Hi, you could try the Armour mod. It is for regular unmodded CC3 so you would have to manually adjust the data to align with CoI/RealRed

http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Downloads&op=getit&lid=1925
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Serkr

Rep: 2.8


PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:26 am Post subject: Re: Vehicle data in CoI and RealRed Reply with quote

Thanks, I ended up manually adjusting it.
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Serkr

Rep: 2.8


PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:59 pm Post subject: Re: Vehicle data in CoI and RealRed Reply with quote

Am I reading the vehicle data wrong or does the Tiger Tank by default have just about half the frontal armor of a generic t34 of any year?

edit:

Lol, apparently I came to the exact conclusion in the OP... Whoops. Still, it's really weird. I replaced the tigers armor values with those from the IS-2 and it seems a lot more realistic of a model.


edit2:

Whoever did the armor + gun values in the vehicle file really didn't like Tiger tanks (or German for that matter). But Tiger tanks in particular were their pet peeve.
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