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Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

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paratmar

Rep: 28.3
votes: 3


PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Interesting point of view - https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2022/11/25/it-seems-russia-wont-require-a-winter-offensive-to-win-the-war/
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dj

Rep: 149
votes: 9


PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):


NATO was expanding even when Russia was totally not a threat. NATO supplied and coordinated subversive programs in Russia itself and nearby countries from 1949 and with no stop at and after 1991. NATO never removed Russia from main threat to alliance. And we all remind, how well NATO NOT invaded Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, in 'defensive posture' of course.


When was Russia "totally not a threat" ?  Afraid to say that is not an accurate statement.  Assume you meant after fall of Soviet Union in 90's.  Actually was very dangerous period of time for rest of world with de-stabilization of former states of Soviet Union.  USA helped Russia by negotiating with Ukraine to disarm nuclear weapons within its borders.  Russia was close to civil war and Russian organized crime syndicates battling for control fighting each other.  Less than 10 years after what the West hoped would be a new beginning with free trade, investment opportunities and even potential liberal democracy within Russia....instead reverted back to Dictatorship police state.

You conflated unilateral action of President Bush and extremely limited military strikes with NATO-sponsored missions.  Again that is completely false statement. Yes NATO had peacekeeping missions in former Yugoslavia enforcing no fly zone and de-escalations of aggressions. As well as the NATO mission in Afganistan to search and destroy Bin Laden gangsters.  The Taliban had every opportunity to surrender war criminal terrorist but opted for war instead.
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mooxe

Rep: 214.8
votes: 25


PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:06 am Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

paratmar wrote (View Post):
mooxe wrote (View Post):
Why is Russia still in the Ukraine?
Not anymore, Russia is still on its territory (although some part of Russia are currently temporarily occupied by Ukraine) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Annexation_of_Southern_and_Eastern_Ukraine.svg  


I thought Ukraine annexed it back?


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JFFulcrum

Rep: 70.8


PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Quote:
You conflated unilateral action of President Bush and extremely limited military strikes with NATO-sponsored missions.  Again that is completely false statement. Yes NATO had peacekeeping missions in former Yugoslavia enforcing no fly zone and de-escalations of aggressions.

https://www.nato.int/kosovo/press/p990525b.htm

Quote:
Question (Norwegian News Agency): I am sorry Jamie but if you say that the Army has a lot of back-up generators, why are you depriving 70% of the country of not only electricity, but also water supply, if he has so much back-up electricity that he can use because you say you are only targeting military targets?

Jamie Shea : Yes, I'm afraid electricity also drives command and control systems. If President Milosevic really wants all of his population to have water and electricity all he has to do is accept NATO's five conditions and we will stop this campaign. But as long as he doesn't do so we will continue to attack those targets which provide the electricity for his armed forces. If that has civilian consequences, it's for him to deal with but that water, that electricity is turned back on for the people of Serbia. Unfortunately it has been turned off for good or at least for a long, long time for all of those 1.6 million Kosovar Albanians who have been driven from their homes and who have suffered, not inconvenience, but suffered in many cases permanent damage to their lives. Now that may not be a distinction that everybody likes but for me that distinction is fundamental.


Yeah, 'extremely limited'. Especially those in Iraq.
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JFFulcrum

Rep: 70.8


PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Quote:
When was Russia "totally not a threat" ?  Afraid to say that is not an accurate statement. Actually was very dangerous period of time for rest of world with de-stabilization of former states of Soviet Union.

Well, just read great book about first Chechen war: https://avidreaders.ru/book/ya-kalibr-10.html (use translate). Russian army was very, very weak that times. Only after war Yeltsin realize its weakness and prompt some former USSR 'siloviks' to power, like Primakov and Lebed to restore military strenght.
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dj

Rep: 149
votes: 9


PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:57 am Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):
Quote:
You conflated unilateral action of President Bush and extremely limited military strikes with NATO-sponsored missions.  Again that is completely false statement. Yes NATO had peacekeeping missions in former Yugoslavia enforcing no fly zone and de-escalations of aggressions.

https://www.nato.int/kosovo/press/p990525b.htm

Quote:
Question (Norwegian News Agency): I am sorry Jamie but if you say that the Army has a lot of back-up generators, why are you depriving 70% of the country of not only electricity, but also water supply, if he has so much back-up electricity that he can use because you say you are only targeting military targets?

Jamie Shea : Yes, I'm afraid electricity also drives command and control systems. If President Milosevic really wants all of his population to have water and electricity all he has to do is accept NATO's five conditions and we will stop this campaign. But as long as he doesn't do so we will continue to attack those targets which provide the electricity for his armed forces. If that has civilian consequences, it's for him to deal with but that water, that electricity is turned back on for the people of Serbia. Unfortunately it has been turned off for good or at least for a long, long time for all of those 1.6 million Kosovar Albanians who have been driven from their homes and who have suffered, not inconvenience, but suffered in many cases permanent damage to their lives. Now that may not be a distinction that everybody likes but for me that distinction is fundamental.


Yeah, 'extremely limited'. Especially those in Iraq.


Yugoslavia was not an invasion like what Russia always likes to do.  Yes Kosovo is a very successful peacekeeping operation.  There is peace now in Yugoslavia yes?

Again you claimed Iraq was NATO mission.  It was not.  And many in both American and Britain complained it was illegal invasion or voted no for war.  Regardless Sadam Hussein was not cooperating and he also made illegal invasion of Kuwait which was meant with international condemnation.

It wasn't that Russia was "weak" under its first leader (Yeltsin) post Soviet era...but rather it was extremely unstable politically and vulnerable to Coups or civil war.  Which presented a threat to rest of world.  Thus Russia has been a threat for 100 consecutive years with many invasions of sovereign nations, collaboration with Nazi's, torture and murder of its own citizens and numerous other threats to rest of world.  There is a very good reason why NATO has continued to expand and starting more wars will make it stronger not weaker.
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JFFulcrum

Rep: 70.8


PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Quote:
he also made illegal invasion of Kuwait which was meant with international condemnation.

in 1980 Saddam illegally invaded Iran, and West applauded, and fuel Iraq with flow of arms and intelligence data. Like with Bin laden, US grew an enemy by itself.
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JFFulcrum

Rep: 70.8


PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Quote:
There is peace now in Yugoslavia yes?

I can just make some pickups from the news feeds, but it will be a waste of time. The peacekeeping forces are there for 20 years+, and, like in Caucasus, the situation is long from any stable peace.

Quote:
Thus Russia has been a threat for 100 consecutive years with many invasions of sovereign nations, collaboration with Nazi's, torture and murder of its own citizens and numerous other threats to rest of world.

You missed a zero in '1000 years' probably. Also, didn`t expect, that 1918 Entante invasions or 1941 Hitler's invasion was a 'stabilization efforts'.
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dj

Rep: 149
votes: 9


PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:06 am Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):
Quote:
he also made illegal invasion of Kuwait which was meant with international condemnation.

in 1980 Saddam illegally invaded Iran, and West applauded, and fuel Iraq with flow of arms and intelligence data. Like with Bin laden, US grew an enemy by itself.


Yes as I mentioned, many Americans and others in the West condemned the Iraq invasion. It was wrong and illegal.  And it was not NATO mission either, you said it was.  Unlike Russia, American Presidents only allowed to serve 8 years.  It was a bad decision and de-stabilized the mid-east.  I don't think it was all Iraq's fault for war with Iran in the 80's.  They hated each other for centuries very old Islamic secular dispute.  Negative about Bin Laden he was jihadist perverted sick mentally ill person.  America didn't do anything to him.  Like the terrorists in Russia that your people hunted down also that used name of religion to justify barbaric acts.
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dj

Rep: 149
votes: 9


PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:16 am Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):
Quote:
There is peace now in Yugoslavia yes?

I can just make some pickups from the news feeds, but it will be a waste of time. The peacekeeping forces are there for 20 years+, and, like in Caucasus, the situation is long from any stable peace.

Quote:
Thus Russia has been a threat for 100 consecutive years with many invasions of sovereign nations, collaboration with Nazi's, torture and murder of its own citizens and numerous other threats to rest of world.

You missed a zero in '1000 years' probably. Also, didn`t expect, that 1918 Entante invasions or 1941 Hitler's invasion was a 'stabilization efforts'.


Don't think that is accurate statement.  There's no active combat, genocide, bombing, land mines, or snipers in Yugoslavia any more, the NATO mission was a success not a doubt about it.  Very tiny peacekeeping forces to serve as deterrent and at the request of local governments.  We didn't just invade and bomb Yugoslavia into a Stalingrad wasteland.

No not really, 100 years of persistent threat Russia has been.  In the case of Yeltsin, not his fault but the instability and risk of another Coup like what they attempted against Gorbachev.  The Czars and Imperial Russia before the Soviet revolution were no better or worse than the other Imperial powers of Europe.  Russia under Josef Stalin became Blood Thirsty with many crimes against humanity and became corrupt ever since.  Not only to other nations but to its own citizens as well.  Don't forget Soviets were allies with Nazi's and complicit with numerous war crimes, invaded Finland, Poland twice actually 3 times if you consider the occupation post WW2, seizure of Baltics etc.
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JFFulcrum

Rep: 70.8


PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Quote:
Don't think that is accurate statement.  There's no active combat, genocide, bombing, land mines, or snipers in Yugoslavia any more, the NATO mission was a success not a doubt about it.  Very tiny peacekeeping forces to serve as deterrent and at the request of local governments.


https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/three-killed-kosovo-bus-shooting-2021-11-26/
https://chernayakobra.ru/shots-fired-in-kosovo-and-the-summit-of-the-non-aligned-movement-in-belgrade/
https://ba.n1info.com/english/news/shots-fired-at-kosovo-police-patrol-special-units-deployed/
https://newsrnd.com/news/2022-08-02-shots-in-kosovo--does-nato-have-to-intervene--bundeswehr-soldiers-on-site---%22keep-the-peace%22.ryfqUAMUa5.html
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mooxe

Rep: 214.8
votes: 25


PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Berger wrote (View Post):
Ten Russian POWs shot in the head lying face down on the ground. Ukrainians gouged out the eyes of at least one of the soldiers.

Maybe not the best way to win hearts and minds in the West.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-defence-ministry-says-ukraine-executed-russian-pows-2022-11-18/  


The follow up stories on this incident speak of a Russian ambush. Or at the very least one Russian did not want to surrender with the rest of the group.

The final Russian who came out of the building started shooting at the Ukrainians. In the return automatic fire its likely all Russians were killed. There were Ukrainian casualties as well.


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Berger

Rep: 30.2
votes: 3


PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

UN: video of Ukrainians executing Russian POWs 'highly likely to be authentic'

https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/us-news/2022/11/25/un-video-of-ukrainians-executing-russian-pows-highly-likely-to-be-authentic/
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mooxe

Rep: 214.8
votes: 25


PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Berger wrote (View Post):
Maybe not the best way to win hearts and minds in the West.


No, it's not. If it was more widespread I am sure support would diminish. There's really not much sympathy for Russia in the west at the moment.

If Russia could come up with a good reason why they attacked and annexed part of of Ukraine they could win the hearts and minds of the world.


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JFFulcrum

Rep: 70.8


PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Ukraine made a strikes at several bases of Russian long-rangle air forces. Russian ministry of defense agreed 3 KIA, 4 WIA, two planes damaged. Claims that Ukraine used USSR-era long-range Tu-141 drones in attack. Drone of same type was found in Zagreb, Croatia in March, passed over 500 km.

Despite multiple attacks on Khmeimim base in Syria at past, defenses of important air fields still needs attention. Also, despite several lessions in Crimea, Maxar satellite images showed tight-packed planes on taxi, without delimiters or other fortifications around, prone to multiple damages by a single hit.
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JFFulcrum

Rep: 70.8


PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Meanwhile a parts of missile was found in north of Moldova - https://noi.md/ru/obshhestvo/v-brichanskom-rajone-pogranichnaya-policiya-obnaruzhila-raketu  . No casualties reported.
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mooxe

Rep: 214.8
votes: 25


PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Good pictures here.

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/an-uav-strike-on-an-air-base-near-ryazan-damages-a-tu-22m3-strategic-missile-carrier/


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mooxe

Rep: 214.8
votes: 25


PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1599865377164779521.html

Former Chechen president foretelling the Ukraine war in 1995.


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JFFulcrum

Rep: 70.8


PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Ukraine and Chechnya had a close ties in 90-s. For Ukraine it was a strategy to ignite fights on Caucasus to divert Russian attention from Crimea and Black Sea fleet. And that strategy was successful, Yeltsin was unable to deal with Ukraine and with Chechnya at same time, choose Chechnya, so Ukraine reached goals to take Crimea under control and force Russia to partition navy in 1994.
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Berger

Rep: 30.2
votes: 3


PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: War in Ukraine? Reply with quote

Angela Merkel said that the Minsk agreements were an attempt to "give Ukraine time"

https://twitter.com/maxblumenthal/status/1600745894365736960

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/merkel:-minsk-agreement-attempted-to-give-ukraine-time
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