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Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out?

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#1: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: chessmaster, Location: Antwerp and Ghent

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:48 am
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hello dear friends,

is the game worth buying with the new patch?

and if so where can I buy it, small detail> I don t have paypal

thank you

#2: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:50 pm
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I do not have it either. This patch is not convincing me to buy it.

#3: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: chessmaster, Location: Antwerp and Ghent

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:46 pm
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- what exatly isnt good in PITF?

+ and what is good?

be objective please, would like to know the cons and goods on this game

thanks

#4: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:35 pm
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Here are a few -/+ points;
- Normandy again
- bigger scale means you can see less distance of a map in battle
- multiplayer requires connecting to their server (no direct connection to host/join)
- reserve BG's do not lend units to the front line BG in battle
- troops can only be placed around 1 entry VL instead of 2 like LSA due to the above change

+ 32bit graphics for explosions, maps, vehicles, etc. (should be better)
+ bigger scale for maps and vehicle graphics (more pixels, should be better)
+ guns can be towed
+ more than 15 squads/vehicles per BG
+ troops can be carried in half tracks

Edit:
+ mortar teams have a delay for firing at a spot for the 1st time (3 last locations are saved and can be shot at again without much delay)

Last edited by Tejszd on Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:07 am; edited 1 time in total

#5: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Hetser, Location: rigaud quebec,canada

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:15 am
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Maps are plenty large, hard to defend against a human who uses terrain for cover, which the AI does not. That is to say you can lose if the live opponent "flows" around you, cutting you off from supply. (Talking operations here.)

The AI seems to be a bit more aggressive, but still needs work. For e.g. the armor gets in too close to potential choke/ambush points. Not like a human's tactics in a similar attack.

Not a lot of opponents, those that are posting at the Slitherine web site are a continent away and therefore available at the wrong time.

I bought it using MasterCard at the Matrix game site,

Let me know if you get it, we could try a battle on for size.

#6: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:51 am
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Quote:

Normandy again

That was probably the biggie, going back there. Also, not going back to the Eastern Front.

They could have at least gone to the neglected Italian front. Kesselring's defensive campaigns have been neglected forever, even in mods. Was hoping the last go around on the old engine would give Clark/Alexander type players a chance for a redo in the history books.

#7: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: chessmaster, Location: Antwerp and Ghent

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:52 pm
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Thanks guys,

so it stilll needs a decent patching up, howcome those guys at matrix dont involve you guys for patching up?
with all the experience of this site, should be an easy job

do wanna try the game doh..
for the new experience like the towing guns, and driving troops around and I really like the trees, they so big and real Smile

like a real forrest

@tejszd

> seems like a serious problem that multiplayer issue

>and why did they removed the function of reserve bg lending troops to frontline, they were doing so well in lsa in that light, that was a good thing

@hetser

> AI is always bad, best ever AI i saw, was Battle For Berlin vetmod

> do like the fact that the maps are so big you can flow around with, the players is more forced to chose whats important, i think its gives extra tactical possibilities

#8: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:33 pm
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1) I would like to here about the new way of selecting troops. I mean, isn’t that’s a big change??
How does that work, and how does it function in a GC long term..? Compared to CC3 style, and CC5 style…

2) How about the maps, they look grate, but how’s the code? Reports about the roads being to narrow for the new big vehicles made em go off road instead of staying on the road.. Is that fixed? Elevation, is that still an issue? Etc…

3) I was first reserved about LSAs 2 point entrys on maps, but that seem to offer some good strategic choices that makes defence harder and attack more easy on the tac level. How does that play out?

4) Are there any H2H players in the lobby?

/S

Last edited by AT_Stalky on Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

#9: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:00 pm
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Found this in a seperat thread:

Ramcke wrote (View Post):

I don't really the new installment [PitF] of cc, playing WAR instead, I took PITFALL off my hd and just wait for it to get moded.

Though the post is missing an important part, he dont say why ...

#10: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:21 pm
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I'm starting to think I should have gotten LSA instead.

+Graphics (textures, trees, vehicles, explosions look terrific)
+Soldiers' history is not erased if you return them to the Force pool
+Better way to choose troops
+More realistic OOB
+Seems limits on the data files are gone (some one confirm please)
+Some extra stuff is moddable
+Because it is more recent it gets preference on the bug detection and patch release.
+21 units per BG is the max now

-You see less of the battlefield because of the zoom in effect.
-The GUI on the battle map is awful and takes a good chunk of screen when all of them are activated.
-Seems trees and hedgerows don't block LOS like before. It is my impression that the enemy can see you in places where you would normally be safe in previous CC's.
-Can't choose troops from reserve BG forces.
-Most awfully anti-game Operation they could choose to represent, the offensive was over in a day, the rest was mopping up by US, not to mention the location. It was called WORLD war for a reason not NORMANDY war.

At its current state is playable and enjoyable on the campaign. It takes a bit of getting used to to the view and how it "feels" compared to previous versions.

#11: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:33 pm
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Thanx Kanov.

#12: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:58 pm
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AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

1) I would like to here about the new way of selecting troops. I mean, isn’t that’s a big change??
How does that work, and how does it function in a GC long term..? Compared to CC3 style, and CC5 style…

Well, you choose platoons for the first 2 available platoon spaces. A platoon could have 6 units and its leader, thus 7 units max per space, total of 14. These cannot be customized. The third platoon space is for support units, these are chosen on an individual basis, you can choose whatever units here that are support units.

The forcepool is likewise organized into companies, regiments etc.

Now, most BG's are never at the full capacity of 21 units because of different sizes, some BG's are representing regiments, brigades others mere companies. Based on the BG size you are allotted a set of useful slots that you can fill. Most of the time you get to fill the first platoon, like four slots of the second platoon and some of the support platoon.

Some Armored BG's have Tanks platoons where you can choose the tanks for the first two platoon spaces, others have their tanks in the support space.

Most companies have three platoons each.

Each company most of the time has its own weapons and HQ team too, this means that when you select a platoon from the 1st company, it has its own company leader unit and some extra support like panzer schrecks and maybe a kubelwagen for germans. These are in addition to the whole support teams and units for the BG which could be engineers company, AT guns, assault guns, mortars etc.

The refit of teams and repair of vehicles occurs automatic, mostly after night turn. Its effectiveness is according to the side you're playing (Americans are more effective at getting replacements) and difficulty.

#13: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Pzt_Crackwise, Location: Switzerland

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:00 pm
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I also agree with Kanov that the hedgerows and trees don't seem to block line of sight as they used to. Which I find very stupid and makes it unpredictable whether you will be shot or not. I lost a couple of tanks because I had assumed the hedges would not allow LOS.

Other than that, mortars are very powerful. I have seen mortars kill men which are even in buildings. But maybe it is logical, with buildings having wooden roofs.

It seems as if the firefights seem to be shorter even when two battling teams are in good cover or in buildings, compared to the long firefights in LSA (which I like a lot).

Also almost every German infantry team seems to have MG42. Maybe it is realistic, but I usually prefer the GJS seperation of teams such as: 3 men MG team, and 7 men inf team. It is easier to maneuver a light infantry team while an MG team provides suppression fire.

Graphics look really nice. It would be better if the tracer shots were more apparent, it is sometimes hard to distinguish them.

#14: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:08 pm
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Thanx again Kanov for that detaild explenation, its sounds intresting.

/S

#15: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:12 pm
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Thanx Crackwise

edit..

/S

Last edited by AT_Stalky on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:36 pm; edited 2 times in total

#16: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:31 pm
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Pzt_Crackwise wrote (View Post):

I also agree with Kanov that the hedgerows and trees don't seem to block line of sight as they used to. Which I find very stupid and makes it unpredictable whether you will be shot or not. I lost a couple of tanks because I had assumed the hedges would not allow LOS.

Other than that, mortars are very powerful. I have seen mortars kill men which are even in buildings. But maybe it is logical, with buildings having wooden roofs.

It seems as if the firefights seem to be shorter even when two battling teams are in good cover or in buildings, compared to the long firefights in LSA (which I like a lot).

Also almost every German infantry team seems to have MG42. Maybe it is realistic, but I usually prefer the GJS seperation of teams such as: 3 men MG team, and 7 men inf team. It is easier to maneuver a light infantry team while an MG team provides suppression fire.

Graphics look really nice. It would be better if the tracer shots were more apparent, it is sometimes hard to distinguish them.

I've also lost flanking teams that I thought were moving beyond the reach of enemy MG's.

Forgot about mortars lol, HUGE change on them, they need 20sec to aim the first time to a new target, then it releases a volley of about 6 rounds. the target zone gets 'remembered' so if you aim again at that location it doesn't need other 20sec to aim. And yes they are very powerful now, like naval barrage from CC5.

Also agree about the composition of german teams, literally every german infantry unit carries an MG42 I don't know how realistic is that but I don't like it one bit. Much preferred the old way of 7 infantry soldiers and 3 soldiers for the MG support group.

And max number of soldiers for germans is 5, 7 for americans. Which because of the low replenish rate of the germans you must play with teams of 4,3 even two soldiers at times.

I still don't know if lost teams get replenished or if you lose the whole team then is lost forever.

#17: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:57 pm
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Okay, regarding funny LOS.

I looked in the elements file, and when it comes to small hedge, the AB row (line 117) is set to "0", it should be set to "1" to make los accumilate, and in the end block los. If its not set to "1" the elemnt never block los no matter how thick the hedge is, and how many rows of hedges there are.

Can anyone who have PitF test this. And see if it makes small hedges behave as u expect?

/Stalky

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#18: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: DoktorPaj, Location: Norrköping

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:21 pm
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What I miss most is the unit selection system and the squad sizes where I could handpick and combine my units as I wanted. I don't think I will do so much for now, and wait until someone figures out a way to have all three platoons individually selectable. Now I just have six groups of PzGrenadiere with 3 men and a leMG42 per infantry platoon.

#19: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:39 pm
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Regarding trees and small hedges not blocking LOS...I forgot when the devs implemented this...was it TLD (before the patches) or LSA?
Tree trunks block LOS, while the leaves don't.
There was an element coding mistake in small hedges like Stalky mentioned...also hedges are now coded on level ground...the mounds/elevated grounds for hedgerows in CC5 are gone!

#20: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Pzt_Crackwise, Location: Switzerland

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:52 pm
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@Squadleader, Do you know why the hedges are coded with the ground elevation? The previous CC5, TLD, LSA hedge system used to work great. Why did they change it?

#21: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:47 am
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^^^
Actually IIRC they were introduced in most TLD maps.
I haven't checked all the PitF maps...some of the PiTF maps do code small hedges at 0.5m elevation rise though...so Stalky's elements coding correction should play a bigger role in correcting LOS.

#22: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:50 am
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The Animation for your BG movement of the Strategic map is cool.
However the layout of the strategic map is not very desirable.
It just doesn't look like you'll have any chance playing as the Germans to be successful.

Google Roofs?
If that's correct It's just gotta stop.
They are horrible looking,too bright and just too clean.
Meuse which was the best looking Maps to hit CC at the time is experiencing the same issue with the new maps.

Map .
While I don't know what the size is in PiFT again they appear to be way to big to be enjoyable.
Add to that the zoomed in view and it leaves you guessing many times who/what/where is getting LOS.
And despite Meuse and VETBoB showing how nice it is to have Tree's on the .OVM's no one seemed to get that when creating the .OVM's for PiFT.

Explosions.
Yes there pretty.
After awhile it's just repetition and has no effect on game play.

Unit selections and unit Icons.
I find it to be confusing and no fun at all,probably due to me not being a true Grog and not willing to take the time to learn them.

Fog.
Big mistake.
It takes away everything the map maker did graphic wise.

Towing of AT_Guns.
While it is very cool to do the animation of them when turning is just horribly wrong.
The gun doesn't make a smooth transition,it just jumps.
Imagine a fixed hitch.

#23: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: pvt_Grunt, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:43 pm
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I like the game a lot, it's still fun to play after almost 6 months.

However, the game does move further away from the classic CC3/CC5 style of unit selection. I like the new selection system, but if you want it to be like CC3 with your favorite units being used through-out the campaign you will be dissapointed.

The reality is, this is not "CC5 with the bugs fixed" , I think the game peaked with CC5 and since then it has moved further away with each release. This seems to have been a deliberate decision by the developers. I was expecting it to be different so I wasnt upset by the changes. Some work, like the new strat map - some dont, like the gun towing.

As for your question "Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out?" well, we can only give opinions of our own.

#24: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: chessmaster, Location: Antwerp and Ghent

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:19 am
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thanks crackwise and kanov.. very detailed information and interesting

this feedback should reach the patch team, if someone knows somebody..

well anyway gonna continue play LSA with adjudant_kro.. i made an operation for h2h play to play with him, with all the good units, like tiger tanks and flametanks batalion for german.. if someone wants it let me know

#25: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: chessmaster, Location: Antwerp and Ghent

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:52 am
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ow and thanks everybody else 2, didnt read all the info, only later

yeah you right, grunt.. they are moving away from cc5.. maybe they are jealous on the modding community :p

#26: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Schmal_Turm,

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:29 pm
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I agree with pvt_Grunt, I am enjoying PitF ever since it first came out. One plus that I didn't see anyone mention is that it takes up to a minute or so until the enemy mortar rounds hit. (Now if they are your mortars then you need to consider where the enemy forces might be if they are advancing rapidly to at least slow them down.) That way the devastating effects of the mortars can be diminished to a degree as your forces can move out of the area before being hit. Since some have complained about the devastating effects of the mortars in other games, even going so far as to make them nearly ineffective against AT guns, I would think this would be a plus for you. (I have had games where I have used up the mortar rounds from two mortar units and still had a functioning enemy AT gun to deal with afterward. Just how far do you go get away from reality?) I have noticed that the AI mortars of PitF are extremely accurate with the majority of the rounds landing within the area of a standard size building totally obliterating the unit within. I have decided that is just the cost of war and at least I can depend of the mortars only hitting that area for a while so my other infantry units are relatively unharmed.

As far as some of the CC gamers complaining about this or that in PitF, at the risk of upsetting a few of you I have some things to say. As someone mentioned, these games are simulations. They are meant to be representations of the actual battles at best. From what I have read the Germans would have been in much worst shape, at least on the Western Front if the games were realistic. With the Allies having complete control of the air the Germans were not even able to get any planes up during most of the fighting. This is attested to by the devastation that the Germans experienced at the Falaise Pocket, for instance, where they had to move by night and then hide in the woods to escape the fighter/bombers, especially the Hawker Typhoons with rockets. So some room has to made to get a workable game where either player can win. When I win as the Germans I don't think that makes me any kind of a great armchair general or anything, only that I can make enough good judgments, with few mistakes, to do pretty well at the game.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the hard work that you modders do to make CC so much more than it ever would have been with the original games only.

#27: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:37 pm
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As much as I love WAR and with as much time I've spent playing editing,trying to edit and will probably still edit there is no way shape or form I couldn't produce a list of things I either have an opinion on,like,don't like,Or things that should be fixed.

I apply the same opinion to any of the re-releases or Mods I've played.

How anyone chooses to interpret those things is there problem.

Not mine.

Call me what ever you want,but you cant call me dishonest.

#28: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Schmal_Turm,

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:25 pm
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Forgot to mention: When I use the mortars in CC I generally forget about them as I have many other things going on at the same time. So when I get back to the mortars I find that I have fired all of the rounds except for the last four or so that are left, and then it is like pulling wisdom teeth to get the unit to target those. In PitF since they fire a salvo of five or six I can, in effect, shoot and forget. Plus, since there is the remembering target feature so I can more quickly retarget the same spot if I need to. Since there is the delay when first applying fire I find that I need to target some positions at the start of the game round to cover likely sites for infantry at a bridgehead or some other important tactical feature.

Yeah, I agree that it would have been awesome if Matrix had decided to design a game for the Eastern Front but I am more than happy to have any of the games and I feel that the new games are still way better than the older ones.

#29: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:25 pm
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AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Okay, regarding funny LOS...

I did that and it does makes a difference. Thanks!

#30: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:47 pm
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Np Kanov, glad it helped.

#31: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:04 pm
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As i said, I dont have PitF.

But looking through the elements file, makes me a bit “hmm”.

Someone said that the forest fights was also dodgy LOS,
If someone want to try it, I suggest changing the line 95 to 98, column G, H, I, J to 15 – 20 – 20 – 20. And also the same lines, but column K, L, M, N from 150 up to 200. First fix will make it more playable and more realsitic protection vs small calibre, and the second make LOS more realistic.

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#32: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:27 pm
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Thanx for yer thoughts Schmal_Turm.

One thing about:

Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post):

I have noticed that the AI mortars of PitF are extremely accurate with the majority of the rounds landing within the area of a standard size building totally obliterating the unit within. .

Do you fined it realistic that an 81mm mortar has that effect on units in a house?

/S

#33: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Bel8910,

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:12 pm
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I originally posted this under it's own thread; posting here as well.

Here is my two cents worth on PITF; but, it may only interest novices to the Close Combat community or experienced modders. I am using a 1-5 scale and will break it down into a few categories listing what I like/dislike about the game. First, an obvious statement: I originally bought the game because I have every other game in the series (except the service specific games: CCAT and CC: Regmt).

Graphics: 5 of 5. The teams at Matrix/Siltherine really did a great job with the 3d graphics. The burning vehicles, the obvious misses and not to mention the terrain! The forests are so real I have lost a squad of men in them before and didn't know where I had lost them until they were ambushing/coming under fire! Great job! Fighting at night, fighting in the fog, all great ideas! And I really like being able to mount not only my men, but my artillery as well- and I do it often! But, what happened to the "dig in" order?

Originality: 2 of 5. Ok, this is definitely a subjective score. Why did we re-visit Normandy (albeit further inland/later in the campaign)? What about North Africa/Sicily/Italy? Imagine, an inexperienced American battle group going up against seasoned veterans...learning the trade of war...but with dynamic leaders like Patton. Or how about the ever elusive Korean War? Sherman's against T-34's...imagine the terrain possibilities: rocky hills, to snow covered plateaus to rice paddies! This is my first disappointment with the game.

Mod-ability 1: 2.5. This is a split score: 2.5 for the game and 2.5 for me. This goes mainly back to the awesome graphics. With some trial and error I have learned to work with the 32-bit graphics, but not always to my satisfaction. So, the 2.5 goes to me for either not having the knowledge/skill/programs to work with 32-bit graphics.

Mod-ability 2: I enjoy working with the new force pools/unit structures. The attention to detail in building accurate TOEs is obvious and kudos to the M/S team for taking the time to figure it out! I like working with the new data sheets and building new, accurate teams.

My last disappointment with the game. And again, a personal one. I enjoy the CCMT series of games (Marines, Road to Baghdad, etc) and if the M/S team were to ever take CCMT and combine it with a strategic level game like CCV I don't think I would ever stop playing it! One thing I liked about CCMT is the different team positions: Company Cmdr, XO, Plat Ldr, Plt Sgt, RTO, Squad Ldr, etc. I realize that having a "BAR Auto Rifleman" will not change game play, but it was one of those realistic, detailed items I liked. In WWII they still had PltLdrs, PltSgts, Co. XO's etc. Why did the M/S team settle for the old "Leader, Assistant Leader, Basic, Sniper" positions instead of the 32 positions of CCMT?

Also selection of teams is a somewhat disappointing, esp. in 1st/2nd Platoon since you have to select a full platoon (or % of depending on turn/strength, etc); although, 3rd Platoon is still individual selection. On the other side of that, working with the FP/Unitstructures/AI&AXTeams you can manipulate this somewhat.

To wrap it up- I am glad I bought the game to add to my collection, to play and to give me something new to mod. Overall, taking the game as it stands, I give it a 4.0. Great job Matrix/Silterine developers.

Now when will you develop a game with modern equipment and strategic maps? Things are heating up in North Korea...imagine an American Armored Brigade going against an artillery-heavy North Korean Motorized Division?! Keep up the good work!

#34: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Schmal_Turm,

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:58 pm
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Do you find it realistic that an 81mm mortar has that effect on units in a house? from AT_Stalky

Most definitely, NO! However, it is not enough to ruin the game. Just a little frustrating.

#35: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:40 am
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Good find/tip on the elements hedgerow data AT_Stalky!

Edit: the leaves elements are probably okay or need to changed just slightly when looking at other elements (ex. interior doors/walls have a protection value of 3 while out wood building doors/walls have a protection value of 4). LSA/PiTF have some revised calculation/formulas that make older higher values from CC5 not usable.

#36: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:38 am
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chessmaster wrote (View Post):

hello dear friends,

is the game worth buying with the new patch?

and if so where can I buy it, small detail> I don t have paypal

thank you

Hehe, well we are three pages in, and I didn't check out every response, but I am wondering if there is a consensus yet.

It is funny, because this question.

is the game worth buying with the new patch? Seems to imply that the game is not worth buying without the patch.

So, I guess that would be my question.

Is the game not worth buying without the patch. Question

Usually, after a CC game is released the forums are very turbulent for a period of time. That didn't happen with PitF. Wonder why. Wink

Me thinks, one CC game is enough for moi. It's nothing personal with CC or Matrix. I have found I am that way with other titles too, where there is a series. I just never really wanted to get them all.

#37: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:55 am
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AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Okay, regarding funny LOS.

I looked in the elements file, and when it comes to small hedge, the AB row (line 117) is set to "0", it should be set to "1" to make los accumilate, and in the end block los. If its not set to "1" the elemnt never block los no matter how thick the hedge is, and how many rows of hedges there are.

Can anyone who have PitF test this. And see if it makes small hedges behave as u expect?

/Stalky

Perfect

So now platoon_michael knows what he has to do to the element file for WAR. After these adjustments, when the system deploys his AT guns in the woods, it wont be a big deal, because TREES wont block LOS, and the AT guns can blaze away. Idea

#38: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:45 am
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Quote:

Also almost every German infantry team seems to have MG42. Maybe it is realistic, but I usually prefer the GJS seperation of teams such as: 3 men MG team, and 7 men inf team. It is easier to maneuver a light infantry team while an MG team provides suppression fire.

That separation came not from GJS but from vanilla CCs and while it is pretty much correct for the allies it is very wrong for the Germans.

The German infantry doctrine was based on LMG to kill opposition and not bayonet/grenade charge as most of the other countries had. A squad was not divided into Gun and Maneuvre parts but most of the squad members under 2ic had to defend LMG while NCO show targets to LMG. Thus LMG was integral part of a squad and while changing position was moving with a squad while other squad from platoon had to cover redeployment.

Squads that had 2 LMG were acting as fire teams when each FT cover each other during advance.
Red Army started to copy the German infantry tactics in late 1942, Commandos started to use FT tactics in 1944 as well as late war US squads having 2 BARs per squad.
Modern armies use FTs as well.

In CC it also works just well.

#39: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:22 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

Hehe, well we are three pages in, and I didn't check out every response, but I am wondering if there is a consensus yet.

It is funny, because this question.

is the game worth buying with the new patch? Seems to imply that the game is not worth buying without the patch.

So, I guess that would be my question.

Is the game not worth buying without the patch. Question

Usually, after a CC game is released the forums are very turbulent for a period of time. That didn't happen with PitF. Wonder why. Wink

Like most Matrix releases the initial version has some bugs that require a patch or two to address which does seem to happen thus the purchase should be low risk of ending up being a broken game.

Other issues seems to be related to data and or graphics which will never please everyone as some people's desires conflicts with other people's desires. These items can be adjusted but some people do not think they should have to edit anything and waiting for mod makers will take a while or may never happen (the number of mod makers is dropping).

#40: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:41 pm
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Tejszd wrote (View Post):

Like most Matrix releases the initial version has some bugs that require a patch or two to address which does seem to happen thus the purchase should be low risk of ending up being a broken game.

Mmm, Is what we are seeing some kind of discrimination only vs the Matrix Close Combat releases then? Or you mean.... what do you mean?

I dont see CCMT beeing better now than in 2007... I think PM post WaR issues at a regualar basis.. ? No?

#41: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:51 pm
—
Am I correct that the server for multi player has been down a few days?

I can't seem to connect anymore.

#42: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:13 pm
—
Stwa is probably the best person to comment on CCMT and how it changed from its release to the last patch (including the June 17/2009 exe that was in CC2Redux mod, but never released as part of a patch).

WAR has had many code updates that significantly improved the game from its release (it now has all TLD features plus the updated path finding from LSA back ported to it). Many of platoon_michael's complaints, I believe but he is posting so can agree/disagree, tend to be more data/graphic/map coding related issues. These are fixable but to his point when you pay for a game you do not expect to have to fix these things yourself....

#43: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:34 pm
—

Tejszd wrote (View Post):

Edit: the leaves elements are probably okay or need to changed just slightly when looking at other elements (ex. interior doors/walls have a protection value of 3 while out wood building doors/walls have a protection value of 4). LSA/PiTF have some revised calculation/formulas that make older higher values from CC5 not usable.

Yes, the PitF has the wood wall set to protection = 4, but it also has the wood floor protection set at 4… ? How can a floor give the same protection as a wall?

Funny enough the floors in PitF has the same protection values in all situations, = 4.. I belived that Floors are more protecting in prone, than compared to standing up (furniture’s and fixed mountings protectes more in prone?), no?
Why does a small tree in PitF have the protection value of 10, when the wood wall has the protection of 4, etc etc etc…?

Why does grass, high grass, bush, etc not have any protection in prone, value 0? If the ground in Normandy was football fields I would agree to that but they are not are they? Implicitly, when going to the ground, we automaticly seek cover, we crawl our self to small depressions in the ground or behind small hindrances as rubble or logs etc etc.. This gives protection doesnt it?

I can go on if you like to?

#44: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:38 pm
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I actually agree with you AT_Stalky that the coding is causing most or some of the problems people are seeing and can be edited. I only pointed out that those high values for leaves, that were probably perfect in CC5, probably need to be adjusted down when looking at other elements because of the new formulas used in LSA and PiTF.

Last edited by Tejszd on Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

#45: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:39 pm
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Here are some more thoughs on PitF:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3307860

#46: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:52 pm
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Yes you right Tejszd, PitF use new formula for column G, H, I, J, oght to be a smaller numbers than what i first suggested.

#47: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:57 pm
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Tejszd wrote (View Post):

Stwa is probably the best person to comment on CCMT and how it changed from its release to the last patch (including the June 17/2009 exe that was in CC2Redux mod, but never released as part of a patch).

WAR has had many code updates that significantly improved the game from its release (it now has all TLD features plus the updated path finding from LSA back ported to it). Many of platoon_michael's complaints, I believe but he is posting so can agree/disagree, tend to be more data/graphic/map coding related issues. These are fixable but to his point when you pay for a game you do not expect to have to fix these things yourself....

CCMT is an outstanding game! IMHO, CCMT has never been patched. The Jan 2008 "patch" was really just a re-release that included all the stuff that they hadn't got permission to use from the various service branches (i.e. USMC, RAF). CCMT has been totally stable, with zero critical bugs. There are some cosmetics that I wish they would fix. In so doing they would have a gem on their hands.

If a person were to get CCMT and the latest version of 5CC, which would allow a person to modify maps, cutting them (or whatever), in seconds, then they could make map material for CCMT until they puke. Its what I have done, and the main reason I don't really consider any other CC title, is because all in all, over time, I have figured out that I am very satisfied with CCMT, where I can do modern and WW2.

#48: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:45 pm
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Tejszd,

What I have always wondered, why was there a different exe in the CC2 Redux mod. Why did that happen? I am not sure, at all, and I guess you might be a better judge than me, but was that exe really the CCM v5 exe. It seems people took that as a sign they would release it sometime with a patch and appearently that exe allows some other things like civilians, etc..

Why is Matrix so quiet about it all?

Last edited by Stwa on Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total

#49: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:34 pm
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Tejszd wrote (View Post):

WAR has had many code updates that significantly improved the game from its release (it now has all TLD features plus the updated path finding from LSA back ported to it). Many of platoon_michael's complaints, I believe but he is posting so can agree/disagree, tend to be more data/graphic/map coding related issues. These are fixable but to his point when you pay for a game you do not expect to have to fix these things yourself....

Agreed!

Right now, the best thing happening, and it was right under our noses for along time, is the fact that WAR and TLD are roughly the same regarding mods. It just seems a no brainer to support these two games, by moving more mods from CC5 to them.

I have heard platoon_michael from time to time, and I share his frustration. The CC team just doesn't have enough pride in the product to stop and and at least polish one title off until its perfect. By that I mean all cosmetic UI stuff gone, and a good functioning game, that does not CTD during the campaign game. Why can't they do this? What on earth is the matter with them?

#50: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:48 pm
—

Quote:

Why can't they do this? What on earth is the matter with them?

It seems there's only one programmer for all versions.

#51: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:06 am
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OIC, I didn't know that Exclamation

[slaps forehead]

Well, me thinks Matrix knows the games will sell either way.

100, yipee. Maybe a good time to retire. Idea

#52: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:04 pm
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Quote:

It just seems a no brainer to support these two games, by moving more mods from CC5 to them.

Can't agree with you enough STWA. TT's Vetmod, multiple beach mods and the just released BOB are pretty much IT for moth WAR and TLD while there are many FINE CC5 mods begging to be released for the better WAR/TLD engines.

Kharkov would be a winner any day should it get converted, as well as someone finishing up the never completed Kursk, if anyone ever had the time, or felt like taking one of those on.

#53: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: pvt_Grunt, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:16 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

100, yipee. Maybe a good time to retire. Idea

I gave you -1 rep - if you say you will retire at 100, I will keep you at 99 Wink

#54: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:54 am
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haha,

Very funny. Laughing

Don't worry, I will be back when Matrix patches CCMT. Wink

Or, when QE3 ends. Laughing

Or, when the Reupublicans win an election. Laughing

Just kidding of course.

#55: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: chessmaster, Location: Antwerp and Ghent

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:28 pm
—
Although you guys are going off topic, i ve learned some stuff again, but i could understand half of it
I m no editor, thats one of the reasons

But why dont understand is that you guys from the site, dont work with matrix to solve these problems, you would be a wonderful addition

i don t know, how it is on matrix website? if there are discussions like this, but they could sure learn a lot from you geniuses, you guys have all the experience in modding

I m gonna wait with buying Pitf, like mooxe said they havent done enough, the LOS problem i think is a huge disadvantage for me so, next to other bugs and gameplay futures

#56: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:04 pm
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Most people here are very game specific.
And if I had to guess I would say that's CCV.

I'd have to say the most heated arguments came from people here pointing out issues with WaR and getting those supporting WaR from Matrix to acknowledging them.
for the longest time the Matrix supporters just didn't want to accept what was posted here.
And in all honesty it sometimes got down right ugly (Probably more so from myself)
probably time for me to apologize to all those who are/were with Matrix.
I'm sorry.
(Except Flamethrower),he can still Fuck-Off

Add to that a $50 price tag to any of the re-releases it just didn't sit well with many people.
Why would anyone want to pay $50 for a new game to Beta test it was the thought among many and probably still is.
If I'm not mistaken I would imaging those who worked on the re-releases consider the bulk of the people here ungrateful.

Your question can be two fold in that there is also nothing wrong with Matrix coming here and participating.
There's only 2 sites for CC
Here
Matrix

#57: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:28 pm
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I think you can also add to the fact that nobody here wants to play Another Normandy Campaign.

#58: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:30 pm
—

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

I think you can also add to the fact that nobody here wants to play Another Normandy Campaign.

**OR** Another mod for any of the previous releases and it boggles my mind why some release them when there are so many still interesting skirmishes out there that have not been covered. I understand the "perfect" maps wouldn't be there for some, but all that effort for yet another beach head mod just......

#59: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:53 pm
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

I think you can also add to the fact that nobody here wants to play Another Normandy Campaign.

Knock yourself out.

#60: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:58 pm
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platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

johnsilver wrote (View Post):

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

I think you can also add to the fact that nobody here wants to play Another Normandy Campaign.

Knock yourself out.

Actually did sit down and attempt to figure it out years ago on CC3. No Thanks PM. Enjoy the WAR ones you have and several other CC5 conversions on the meantime and ALWAYS hoping something will be done in Italy.

#61: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:35 pm
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People forget that everyone had the discussion over at Matrix when COI was being formulated. And this was the usual heated CC discussion.

At that time, it was clear to moi, that even Sulla might not have been on the same page as Matrix. Sulla provided several posts, that at a very minimum, seem to imply that he wanted a large game that attempted to provided multiple campaigns, or perhaps even a combination of features from CC3 and CC5. In the end, he (and everyone else), settled for a re-make of CC3. Personally, I argued for just bug fixes and DX updates, but that was shot down early in the conversations.

BUT FOR PITF, in an attempt to get back on topic.

The main reason for getting PitF, is that the scale changes. By that the map scale or the size of a terrain element, changes from 10 pixels square to 16 pixels square. In keeping with that, the tanks have become larger, and I am quessing, they won't look pixelated on the new larger monitors.

However, your monitor size and its resolution, will probably determine if you enjoy the effect that this increase in visual scale causes. If you have a large sized monitor with a gazillion pixels (extreme high definition), then you might see larger, more appealing features when you play the game.

If your monitor is an average size, with just the (up to now), normal amount of pixels, like 1024 x 768 or even my set up with 1360 x 768, the increase in visual scale might not be so pleasant. You will see less of the battle field than before, and the soldiers and tanks and other stuff will be larger. I don't think I am going to like that, so I am good with the current scale that CCMT provides.

BTW, Normandy will NEVER get old.

#62: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:53 pm
—

Quote:

then you might see larger, more appealing features when you play the game.

I'll go as far as saying the graphics look better on TLD and WAR vs CC5 and older even. No idea on COI, since don't have it.

The graphics do look much better (to me) on PITF and they put a lot of effort it seemed on getting them right during testing. "ghosting" features fixed was just one.

#63: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:27 pm
—
I don't have COI either. In the end I did not get any re-release. I did not consider CCMT a re-release, but rather the last of the games provided by Atomic. At the time when I got CCMT, I also had CC4 and CC5. From 2000-2005, I played those games until I puked. They were great.

I took a break until 2009, when I got CCMT. Its 2013, and I will never take a break from CCMT.

Now, I only have CCMT, and it was a GREAT choice. Totally stable, supports WW2 and Modern. Has tons of features the other titles do not have, like mount/dismount, dig-in, saved replay games, as many maps as you want, and an enhanced editor. It is the ultimate.

Besides, I threw together my own PitF campaign. It was called Panthers in Your Face (PiYF). I created it on a Saturday afternoon, and played it over and over again. BTW, the Germans would always win.

#64: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:38 pm
—

Quote:

I also had CC4 and CC5. From 2000-2005, I played those games until I puked. They were great.

With you 100% there. Back in the GLORY DAYS on the old MS game room, there was always 40-50 people waiting to either play H2H, or just plain chat away.. Clans galore and good old comradesmanship most of the time.. With some exceptions..

Made many friends there, then like you it seems, got burned out and moved to Combat Mission until stopped gaming at all myself until 3 years back and got WAR, TLD to get caught up.. Liked them, then got involved in the PITF testing and enjoyed it.

#65: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:43 pm
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Wow, I didn't know you were a tester. Maybe someday I will be ready for PitF, but ...

If I were a NOOB, like platoon_micheal, or AT_Stalky, I would wait until there is a volume of content, that you can add to the PitF experience.

For instance, are there installers for it, that will allow you to add mods, like you can do with WAR and TLD.

Have they put the latest version of 5CC, in a place where it can be easily found by players, that might want to make simple map alterations.

Are there a signigicant number of mods for PitF. I am not sure its incremental improvements in graphics are worth abandoning all the content available for the other game titles. I also noticed, Matrix stated that with PitF, a player would be able to "enjoy" all the CC mods currently in existance. Is this true, I wonder.

Perhaps, a move to PitF, is warrented sometime in the future, when bugs are fixed, and there is additional content, like mods.

For moi, after Panthers in Your Face, I threw together a sequel entitled Tigers in Your Face. These are multi mission campaigns that I am making by simply using the battle editor that comes with CCMT. So, no great skill required here. I am not sure, but I am fairly certain, I would not be able to do this with PitF, so if I moved to it, I would be losing a lot of functionality.

#66: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:56 pm
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CCMT can also provide some approximation of the vehicle scale for PitF and how this might appear on your monitor.

Now, the scales in CCMT are not the new larger scales of PitF, but CCMT has some really big main battle tanks, which gives you an idea of what bigger tanks would seem like, even the larger WW2 tanks in PitF.

The maps I use in CCMT are precisely 600 meters square, which in my understanding is roughly the size of your average PitF map, except that in PitF the visual scale is larger so 600 meters square requires a map 4800 pixels square. In CCMT, 600 meters square = 3000 pixels square.

Apart for the scale difference, what is the same, and what might be more important to players, is that as the scales get larger, or if any game (CCMT included), attempts to provide a larger battlefield (in this case 600 meters square), the targets are going to go OFF SCREEN.

The pic below demonstrates that. It also helps to clarify another problem (addressed in another thread), concerning visibility and forests. But, the modern tanks look large, probably like WW2 tanks in the larger PitF scales. But note, becuase the forest is scattered and not dense, the tanks can still pick out targets on the other side of the map, perhaps 500 meters away.

This pic is from Operation Phoenix, a 15 mission CCMT campaign, when I discovered that using main battle tanks, in closed, obstructed maps, would be a blast, even in CCMT.

What players have not fully appreciated, over time, is that the fundamental core design of CC has not really changed since its inception. And early on, the game was designed to support a maximum map of 576 meters square or 2880 pixels square. Just because the programmers have been able to modify the game to provide larger maps, doesn't mean that all aspects of the original design, support these large maps in an intended way. The most notable example, would be the loss of resolution in the mini map and overview map.

#67: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:10 am
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

Besides, I threw together my own PitF campaign. It was called Panthers in Your Face (PiYF). I created it on a Saturday afternoon, and played it over and over again. BTW, the Germans would always win.

Umm...CCMT Campaign? You mean a string of single/individual battles, right? Not a real campaign of linked/continuous battles Smile

#68: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:10 am
—
Hi,

I responded to this inquiry or perhaps NOOBISH remark in the CCMT forum, with a new thread.

What is a CCMT Campaign?

Regards,

Stwa

#69: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:05 am
—

Corporal Dale R Stwa wrote (View Post):

If I [Stwa] were a NOOB, like platoon_micheal, or AT_Stalky, I would wait until there is a volume of content, that you can add to the PitF experience.

NOOB Dale R Stwa wrote (View Post):

Perhaps, a move to PitF, is warrented sometime in the future, when bugs are fixed, and there is additional content, like mods.

#70: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:49 pm
—
with the /d switch you don't need 3rd party programs to install mods without messing with your original installation anymore.

#71: Re: Is it worth buying with the new patch that came out? Author: chessmaster, Location: Antwerp and Ghent

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:03 pm
—
thanks for your answer Platoon Michael

yeah would love to play something thats about italy 2..
accept for that greece italy mod i played for cc5 about kreta or something i think, i didnt played italians before or a campaign in italy itself

since it s important for me 2, cause there were a lot of algerian, tunesien and moroccan soldiers there fighting in the allied ranks

i am maroccan my roots but i was born in belgium

Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Panthers in the Fog

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