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Close Combat Series -> Kharkov

#1: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:47 am
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Hi to all, waiting TLD Kharkov mod, for now you can see some pictures of it into Kharkov album in TLD section of combat camera.
Here the link: http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=234

Drizzt

Edit: Battlegroup forcepool pictures you can see there come from version 2.0 (so they aren't adjourned: in v 2.2 some teams inside them have been changed and/or reworked).

Last edited by Drizzt on Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:54 am; edited 3 times in total

#2: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: DoktorPaj, Location: Norrköping

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:27 pm
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Looking great! Thank you for your work.

#3: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:22 pm
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That strat map is awesome very well done and detailed. The small strat map image when you select a map (the one with the red circle)
is a nice touch with the historic offensive image attached.

Thanks for all this effort Drizzt, I'm itching to play this!

#4: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Dima,

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:41 pm
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Hi Drizzt,

no M42 in 1942.

#5: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:52 pm
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to Dima: thanks for reporting, do you speak about a main screen weapon (two years ago I have reworked the OT 34 to be no more an OT 34 and accidentally also one soldier weapon near it: probably not a good result about weapon), or maybe the mg team (M42 = MG42?) image of the panzer division? From time to time in these years I have added/changed some team images. Or something else? Please be more clear and I will correct.

to Doktor Paj and Pzt kanov: thanks for the comments!

Drizzt

#6: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Dima,

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:43 pm
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Quote:

to Dima: thanks for reporting, do you speak about a main screen weapon (two years ago I have reworked the OT 34 to be no more an OT 34 and accidentally also one soldier weapon near it: probably not a good result about weapon), or maybe the mg team (M42 = MG42?) image of the panzer division? From time to time in these years I have added/changed some team images. Or something else? Please be more clear and I will correct.

I meant ATG - 45mm obr.42 (M42) - it wasn't available that time.

#7: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:58 pm
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Thanks, now is clear: the obr. 42 you can see it's a 76.2mm (Zis3) medium anti tank gun: the only 45mm that I have in the mod it's the obr.37. When I say "you can see" I mean in the mod, I don't pretend to be 100% sure that the team image is corrected, if you think that the team image is not corrected I will change it (I have trust in your valutation).

Drizzt

Edit: I have noticed only now that there isn't the image of the obr. 42 in starting teams. Anyway, if you think that the 76.2mm was not available I will change it.

#8: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: dgfred, Location: N.C., USA

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:24 pm
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Looks great... nice work Cool

#9: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:56 am
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The mini strat map or red circle map is a cool idea.

#10: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:23 am
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Quote:

Thanks, now is clear: the obr. 42 you can see it's a 76.2mm (Zis3) medium anti tank gun: the only 45mm that I have in the mod it's the obr.37. When I say "you can see" I mean in the mod, I don't pretend to be 100% sure that the team image is corrected, if you think that the team image is not corrected I will change it (I have trust in your valutation).

ah, ok, thing is that the only PTO (ATG) obr.42 in RA was 45mm M42.
ZIS-3 was a DP (divisional gun) obr.42 and as it was only put in mass production in February 1942 I don't think there should be many of them available in Kharkov time.
F-22USV (DP obr.39) was the main DP available to RA that time with production of more than 1200 pcs per month.

and there should be only 1 SMG per team maximum that time with most of teams with no SMG.
no Avtomatchiki either. Only 27 SMG per battalion that time.

and don't forget that in Spring 1942 the RA squad had 10men, same as German infantry squad while f.e. German PzGr squad had 12men and Schutzen(mot) squad had 14men.

#11: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:00 am
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to Dima: Thanks, about DP 0br. 39 - 42 I will correct it. Ok about Avtomatchiki, and I can easily correct also the number of submachineguns (but also for platoon leader squad?)

Standard RA squad has already ten men in the mod. About germans.. maybe I must change another time reinforcement system: only the 9 russian rifle divisions deployed in south sector can reinforce (so not all russian rifle divisions as I have planned before), I do in this way just because russian teams in forcepools had already more men than germans. if I set all stardard german rifle teams to 10 (12 and 14 is impossible but I’m sure you know it) maybe is better restored 1 reinforce possibility for all russian rifle divisions (for the historical numeric proportions of the forces in the battle). I will see..

Questions: I have included in the mod very few KV-I tanks with a zis-5 gun: do you think the’re available (even if few) in mod timeline?
Marder II: very recently I have read that only 14th panzer division had very few of them (the first available), but actually in the mod there are some of them in every divisional panzer abtl. (of infantry divisions). Should I suppose that they were not available right? I mean: you exclude that some of them was in infantry divisions?

Drizzt

#12: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:26 pm
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Quote:

to Dima: Thanks, about DP 0br. 39 - 42 I will correct it. Ok about Avtomatchiki, and I can easily correct also the number of submachineguns (but also for platoon leader squad?)

according to the TOE no SMG in Battalion except 1 per rifle squad.

Quote:

Standard RA squad has already ten men in the mod. About germans.. maybe I must change another time reinforcement system: only the 9 russian rifle divisions deployed in south sector can reinforce (so not all russian rifle divisions as I have planned before), I do in this way just because russian teams in forcepools had already more men than germans. if I set all stardard german rifle teams to 10 (12 and 14 is impossible but I’m sure you know it) maybe is better restored 1 reinforce possibility for all russian rifle divisions (for the historical numeric proportions of the forces in the battle). I will see..

you can always split 12-14men sections in smaller ones Smile

Quote:

tions: I have included in the mod very few KV-I tanks with a zis-5 gun: do you think the’re available (even if few) in mod timeline?

yes, i think most of KVs should be with ZIS-5 that time.

#13: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:26 pm
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to Dima: ok for all and thanks, only one thing about number of teams: splitting squad is good for number of teams in forcepools (about reinforcement problem etc.) but in tactical maps can create (in my opinion) problems: every squad splitted needs another team slot (we don't have it) to really simulate this thing in CC battles (it' a point view, I hope it'is clear what I want to say). Maybe is better set panzergrenadiere with 10 soldiers: after all they will enconter full russian rifle squads. Of course another solution can be to split also russian rifle squads (even if theoretically not necessary, but just to balance german splitted squad). I will see, but I think I will set 10 soldiers for all standard german rifle squads.

Drizzt

#14: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:48 pm
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I remembered wrong, 11men per squad for RA that time Smile

.

It's all up to you, but some info to think about:

RA 11men squad was trained to act 3(LMG)+8(Rifle).
German infantry 10men squad was trained to act as a full 10men(LMG).
German PzGren (gp) 12men squad was trained to act as 5(LMG)+5(LMG)+2(staying with HT).
German PzGren(mot) 14men squad was trained to act as 6(LMG)+6(LMG)+2(staying with 2 trucks).

#15: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:59 pm
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Very interesting Dima. No motorized divisions in Kharkov mod (one problem less). The two soldiers in HT and trucks in my opinion in CC don't count. So:
I will port the various schutzen and panzergreadiere to 10 men. And the russian teams will remain with 10 men (one men less) but I will delete the difference about teams of 10 men with lmg and teams of 10 men without lmg (for now in the mod they are in this way).

Do you know something about ersatztrupp and nov. strelki (reserve rifle squad) number of soldiers?

Drizzt

#16: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:09 pm
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Quote:

No motorized divisions in Kharkov mod (one problem less).

in MID there were Shuetzen (mot) ;)

As the Germans could never meet a demand in HTs the bulk of PzGrens were carried in trucks hence called PzGren(mot) and had 14men squads.
The few which were carried in HTs were called PzGrens(gp) and had 12men squads.

Quote:

Do you know something about ersatztrupp and nov. strelki (reserve rifle squad) number of soldiers?

obviously same as standard squads Smile

#17: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:28 pm
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My fault, I have done confusion between Pzgrens in trucks and the mot. schutzen (but I know that mot. schutzen were in MID, it's just confusion).
Ok for the reserve infantry, and thanks again.

Drizzt

#18: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:15 pm
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Your're welcome mate.
If you have some doubts or questions regarding your mod, just shoot Smile

#19: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:31 pm
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Drizzt,

another puzzle for you :)

RA AP shells were tested against RH armor and when the german tanks fielded FH armor, the penetration dropped down to approximately 35%
so let's say 76mm ZIS-5 could deal 89mm@100m@90deg according to tables so against german FH armor it will be around 65mm penetration Smile

.
and now we recall that they drastically lacked AP shells that time (means no or very few APs for DPs) so a main AT shell is HE and cannister with 30mm penetration - no wonder PzDs could make a hell to RA formations till like late 1942 (guess why 80mm frontal appeared on the german tanks in late 1942).

how can a RA player fight the germans tanks in CC?!

how one can simulate this all in CC? :)

(sorry, iam drunk, iik)

#20: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:29 am
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It's a real puzzle Dima (if I have understood well: RH - FH = H it's hull, right? But R.. Russian? and F?): someone in CC may choose to "adapt" the RA AP sheel numeric valors to the facts you describe, but I don't know if can be a real good thing, and surely I will not do it. Anyway it's very interesting what you have described. You have a real full knowledge about WW2 weapons.

Drizzt

#21: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:50 am
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No, RH=rolled homogenous (standard armor used for most of WW2 tanks), FH=face hardened (armor used by PzIII/IV/StuG tas well as Soviet T50 and US M3 light) Smile

.
The Germans have stopped using FH armor since like 1943 for plates thicker than 50mm to reduce costs.

That was a big problem for all nations - different test methods.

Quote:

someone in CC may choose to "adapt" the RA AP sheel numeric valors to the facts you describe, but I don't know if can be a real good thing, and surely I will not do it.

yes, I did in TRSM/BfC Smile

will make a data update for CC5 Stalingrad shortly with all these changes. (this Kharkov discussion has inspired me Smile

)

#22: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:34 am
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You did, so it’s not impossible to apply in CC: good to know it.
Dima, I don’t want to worry you but let me say this thing only another time: when my mod will be ready for download, it would be great a total correction/upgrade of the vehicles.txt and weapons.txt files made by you (if/when you will have time/will).
About Stalingrad mod I really would like to see it in TLD (with Der kessel, Karelia, and El Alamein mods): matrix games, in my opinion, should think to build and release a tool to extract stratmap info from CC5.exe for the TLD Strapmap.txt file: in this way port mods would be very quick.

Drizzt

#23: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:43 am
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Quote:

Dima, I don’t want to worry you but let me say this thing only another time: when my mod will be ready for download, it would be great a total correction/upgrade of the vehicles.txt and weapons.txt files made by you (if/when you will have time/will).

mate, i would have to change everything, so better not do that, sorry Smile

.
still if you have any question just shoot and I will do my best to answer as I like your attitude to this mod.

Quote:

About Stalingrad mod I really would like to see it in TLD (with Der kessel, Karelia, and El Alamein mods): matrix games, in my opinion, should think to build and release a tool to extract stratmap info from CC5.exe for the TLD Strapmap.txt file: in this way port mods would be very quick.

will do one day, but shortly will release a data upgrade for CC5 which will drastically change/improve gameplay.
actually thought Stal is no played any more but it appears I was mistaken.

#24: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:47 am
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Ok Dima, please take only in consideration that the work on technical aspects of weapons and vehicles can be separated/divided from a total realism work on others data files (teams, soldiers etc.). Anyway of course I respect your decision.

I’m working on the things that we’ve discussed on this thread: if I will have further doubts for sure I will ask to you (thanks).

Drizzt

#25: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:58 am
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looks like great work Drizzt waiting to try this mod!

Tigercub

#26: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:38 am
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Drizzt wrote (View Post):

matrix games, in my opinion, should think to build and release a tool to extract stratmap info from CC5.exe for the TLD Strapmap.txt file: in this way port mods would be very quick.

Mafi has released the req'd tools to extract CC5 data.

#27: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:41 am
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Ok Tejszd, when you say "data" you mean the files in cc Data folder or also the info for the TLD stratmap.txt file? To convert data contained into Data folder it's enough quick also without tools help (but qclone is needed to convert CC5 data in .txt file format), the real problem is the stratmap.txt file.

Anyway, I don't find req'd tool nowhere (I have searched in various sites). Do you know a link?

Drizzt

#28: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:40 am
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Grab BED9 and check it out; it has btd file editor and strat tools.

Last edited by Tejszd on Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:49 am; edited 1 time in total

#29: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:08 am
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Ok Tejszd, I will take a look: of course I have used it to create all btd files of the mod, but, about stratmap, I have preferred a manual work because it was a totally new work to do.
Anyway, using BED9, I have yet searched the option to extract data from the CC5.exe some months ago without success: I will take a look another time as I have said.

Drizzt

#30: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:00 am
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Mafi released these tools;
RtBTool v2.39 = extracts CC5 uniform and support information from the exe plus editing BTD and Strat Information for WAR/TLD/LSA
BED9 v1.09 = convert CC4/5 btd files to WAR/LTD/LSA

"The Blood" released this tool;
StratEdit5.exe = displays CC5 strat information

#31: Re: TLD Kharkov Mod Screenshots Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:51 pm
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Thanks Tejszd, you had already helped me about these things in another topic on this forum but of course thanks again. I have used Rtb 2.39 and Bed9 (also for Kharkov mod) and I know them very well. About stratedit5, I knew only stratedit (the old one): I don't have and I don't have found stratedit5, but anyway now it's all resolved because I have already finished the work I had in mind (mainly using Bed9).

Drizzt

Close Combat Series -> Kharkov

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