Russian IS-2 tank overpowered, stat innaccuracies in CoI
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Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Cross of Iron
#1: Russian IS-2 tank overpowered, stat innaccuracies in CoI Author: Tactician, Location: WNY PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:27 am
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I have been playing Cross of Iron for a while now and the IS-2 tank is off the mark as far as real world specs go.
First of all, the very first models did not even enter the battlefield until April of 1944 yet they are available all over the place in the campaign from before Kursk.

Secondly, they have consistently knocked out Tiger 1s, and Jagdpanthers on their front armor in a couple shots max, while the Tiger's 88 and the Jagdpanther need many repeated hits to knock out an IS-2 in CoI.

This is innaccurate mechanical modeling as according to:

IS-2: "German Army data on the penetration ranges of the 122 mm A-19 gun against the Panther tank showed it to be much less effective when the Panther stood at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round: the A-19 gun was unable to penetrate the glacis plate of the Panther at any distance, and could only penetrate the bottom front plate of the hull at 100 m."(Sewell, Stephen ‘Cookie’ (2002). “Red Star – White Elephant?” in Armor, July–August 2002, pp 26–32. Fort Knox, KY: US Army Armor Center. ISSN 0004-2420)

"It was the large HE shell the gun fired which was its main asset, proving highly useful and destructive in the anti-personnel role. The size of its gun continued to plague the IS-2, and the two-piece ammunition was difficult to handle and slow to reload (the rate of fire was only about two rounds per minute). Another limitation imposed by the size of its ammunition was the payload: only 28 rounds could be carried inside the tank."(Zaloga, Steven (1994). IS-2 Heavy Tank 1944-1973. Osprey Publishing (UK). ISBN 978-1-85532-396-4.)


Panther: "German comparison of their tanks with the new (at the time) Russian T-34/85 medium tank and JS-II (122mm) heavy tank, from March 23rd of 1944, stated that: "The Panther is far superior to the T34-85 for frontal fire (Panther Ausf G could penetrate frontal armor of T-34/85 at 800m, while T-34/85 could penetrate frontal armor of Panther Ausf G at 500m), approximately equal for side and rear fire, superior to the JS for frontal fire and inferior for side and rear fire.

The main gun was capable of penetrating almost 150mm thick armor at the range of 1000 meters and its penetration capability was slightly better than that of Tiger’s 88mm gun. "

In 1943 and 1944, Panther was able to destroy any enemy tank in existence at ranges of 2000m, while in general veteran Panther crews reported 90 percent hit rate at ranges up to 1000m. According to US Army Ground Forces statistics, destruction of a single Panther was achieved after destruction of 5 M4 Shermans or some 9 T-34s. "
On September 13th of 1943, seven Panthers from 1st Battalion of 2nd SS Panzer Regiment of 2nd SSPanzer Division "Das Reich", commanded by SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Holzer (turret number 101) fought with a group of some 70 Soviet T-34 tanks near Kolomak. During the 20 minutes long engagement Panthers destroyed some 28 T-34 tanks without any losses.

During the battle around Siedlce on 28/29th July of 1944, 2nd Battalion of 5th SS Panzer Regiment of 5th SS Panzer Division "Wiking", destroyed some 107 Soviet tanks (including T-34s, Shermans and Valentines), while losing 6 tanks (one PzKpfw IV and five Panthers).

Web Page Name


This information is particularily pertinent: "the 122 mm A-19 gun against the Panther tank showed it to be much less effective when the Panther stood at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round: the A-19 gun was unable to penetrate the glacis plate of the Panther at any distance, and could only penetrate the bottom front plate of the hull at 100 m."

An IS-2 should not be able to take out a Panther, much less a Jagdpanther etc. from the front, yet the game is flawed in that it happens  many times.

Is there a mod that more accurately represents the actual qualities of the Russian vehicles?
#2: Re: Russian IS-2 tank overpowered, stat innaccuracies in CoI Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:28 pm
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You have figured out by now some of the inaccuracies of the game it seems. Probably noticed the AI wins tank on tank fights most of the time. Ferdinand/Elefent is better than it should be.

In those fact finding stats you went and looked up, have you also found out that there were *NO* confirmed kills of either K/Tiger, or J/Tigers from frontal shots during the war? That is from non aircraft? Not sideshots, frontal. They will happen in the CC series. other nuances, like vehicle pathing are the things that are more of a bother to some of us. You will get used to those Panthers brewing up to 76mm Shermans even from frontal shots.
#3: Re: Russian IS-2 tank overpowered, stat innaccuracies in CoI Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:13 am
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Tactician,

122mm sharp nose shell could and did penetrate Panther glasis at any combat ranges.
In cases when it didnt penetrate and ricochetted it usually cracked an armor injuring crew inside.
#4: Re: Russian IS-2 tank overpowered, stat innaccuracies in CoI Author: Tactician, Location: WNY PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:45 am
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Dima, where are you getting your information from if I may ask?  My information is from German and US military studies.   So unless you can provide equivalent sources and research for your information what your saying can be just your opinion, not research.

Dima wrote (View Post):
Tactician,

122mm sharp nose shell could and did penetrate Panther glasis at any combat ranges.
In cases when it didnt penetrate and ricochetted it usually cracked an armor injuring crew inside.
#5: Re: Russian IS-2 tank overpowered, stat innaccuracies in CoI Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:39 am
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Tactician wrote (View Post):
Dima, where are you getting your information from if I may ask?

Soviet test firing reports against various German tanks circa 1944.  

Quote:
My information is from German and US military studies.   So unless you can provide equivalent sources and research for your information what your saying can be just your opinion, not research.

so any of the your " German and US military studies" has report from live-firing tests of 122mm D25T against Panther?
#6: Re: Russian IS-2 tank overpowered, stat innaccuracies in CoI Author: Tactician, Location: WNY PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:43 pm
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It appears we will have to post more source links for any real debate.  I posted a link to a source, and I will go get some more source links, (no hurry, just find them).  You will have to post sources as well in order to have any real discussion of substance.

Let the sourcing begin...

Dima wrote (View Post):
Tactician wrote (View Post):
Dima, where are you getting your information from if I may ask?

Soviet test firing reports against various German tanks circa 1944.  

Quote:
My information is from German and US military studies.   So unless you can provide equivalent sources and research for your information what your saying can be just your opinion, not research.

so any of the your " German and US military studies" has report from live-firing tests of 122mm D25T against Panther?
#7: Re: Russian IS-2 tank overpowered, stat innaccuracies in CoI Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:56 pm
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Tactician wrote (View Post):
It appears we will have to post more source links for any real debate.  I posted a link to a source, and I will go get some more source links, (no hurry, just find them).  You will have to post sources as well in order to have any real discussion of substance.
Let the sourcing begin...

sure, M.Svirin "Stalnoy kulak Stalina".
Report of Sector Trial department August 1944.

In November 1943 blunt-nose shell penetrated Panther glacis at 1400m (weight of powder simulated range).
In August 1944 sharp-nose shell penetrated Panther glacis at 2500m (weight of powder simulated range).

1. 122?? ???????? ????? «?-25» (?????? ? 9) ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ? ???????: 122?? ?-19, 122?? ?-2 ?????? ? 9 ?-4 ????, ? ??????: ????????? ???????? v=780-790 ?/?? ??? ??????? 25 ??. ??? ????? ????????? ??? «???????» ???????? ?? ????????? 2500 ???., ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????????? ?????????
1. 122mm D25 gun (produced by factory #9) having same ballistics as: 122m A-19, 122m D-2 produced by factory #9 S-4 R&D department, precisely: muzzle velocity v=780-790m/s with shell weighting 25kg. This shell penetrates glacis of "Panther" at 2500m with sure, though that's not a limit.



Now please show me German or US report stating 122mm D25T didn't penetrate Panther glacis with examples.
#8: Re: Russian IS-2 tank overpowered, stat innaccuracies in CoI Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:13 am
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To make it more detailed:

Quote:
IS-2: "German Army data on the penetration ranges of the 122 mm A-19 gun against the Panther tank showed it to be much less effective when the Panther stood at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round: the A-19 gun was unable to penetrate the glacis plate of the Panther at any distance, and could only penetrate the bottom front plate of the hull at 100 m."(Sewell, Stephen ‘Cookie’ (2002). “Red Star – White Elephant?” in Armor, July–August 2002, pp 26–32. Fort Knox, KY: US Army Armor Center. ISSN 0004-2420)

what is his source?

Quote:
Panther: "German comparison of their tanks with the new (at the time) Russian T-34/85 medium tank and JS-II (122mm) heavy tank, from March 23rd of 1944, stated that: "The Panther is far superior to the T34-85 for frontal fire (Panther Ausf G could penetrate frontal armor of T-34/85 at 800m, while T-34/85 could penetrate frontal armor of Panther Ausf G at 500m), approximately equal for side and rear fire, superior to the JS for frontal fire and inferior for side and rear fire.

where is the mention of 122mm D25T here?

Quote:
The main gun was capable of penetrating almost 150mm thick armor at the range of 1000 meters and its penetration capability was slightly better than that of Tiger’s 88mm gun. "

what type of armor, with what shell?

Quote:
In 1943 and 1944, Panther was able to destroy any enemy tank in existence at ranges of 2000m, while in general veteran Panther crews reported 90 percent hit rate at ranges up to 1000m. According to US Army Ground Forces statistics, destruction of a single Panther was achieved after destruction of 5 M4 Shermans or some 9 T-34s. "

that's a false, there are tons of examples for both the Allies and RKKA where units equipped with Panthers lost more tanks than opponents.

Quote:
On September 13th of 1943, seven Panthers from 1st Battalion of 2nd SS Panzer Regiment of 2nd SSPanzer Division "Das Reich", commanded by SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Holzer (turret number 101) fought with a group of some 70 Soviet T-34 tanks near Kolomak. During the 20 minutes long engagement Panthers destroyed some 28 T-34 tanks without any losses.

no confirmation from the Soviet side, the whole army lost 48 tanks from all sources in 2 days in that area.

Quote:
During the battle around Siedlce on 28/29th July of 1944, 2nd Battalion of 5th SS Panzer Regiment of 5th SS Panzer Division "Wiking", destroyed some 107 Soviet tanks (including T-34s, Shermans and Valentines), while losing 6 tanks (one PzKpfw IV and five Panthers).

no confirmation from the Soviet side.

Quote:
An IS-2 should not be able to take out a Panther, much less a Jagdpanther etc. from the front, yet the game is flawed in that it happens  many times.

it should at any CC range.

Quote:
Is there a mod that more accurately represents the actual qualities of the Russian vehicles?

while COI and CC3 and RR have alot of ahistorical and unrealistic things, IS-2 penetration is ok.
Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Cross of Iron


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