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#81: Re: The Ukraine Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:45 pm
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Comparing Saddam's Iraq to the Ukraine is a bit premature. The Ukraine has not taken over a neighbouring country or started killing its own citizens (but that didn't prevent the Russians from claiming the unrest in Ukraine was only a threat to Russian minority which is actually the majority in the Crimea).

The aim of the new Ukraine government might not be good but is still unknown/unproven. Russia I would not think should claim the morale high ground with the gulag system for its own citizens and attacks on other neighbouring countries; Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland or Poland and what happened to their government, intellectual, military and religious leaders?

Unfortunately for most smaller countries the big countries/super powers like to exert their power and try to make themselves look good while doing it!

#82: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:37 pm
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Tejszd wrote (View Post):

Comparing Saddam's Iraq to the Ukraine is a bit premature. The Ukraine has not taken over a neighbouring country or started killing its own citizens (but that didn't prevent the Russians from claiming the unrest in Ukraine was only a threat to Russian minority which is actually the majority in the Crimea).

The aim of the new Ukraine government might not be good but is still unknown/unproven. Russia I would not think should claim the morale high ground with the gulag system for its own citizens and attacks on other neighbouring countries; Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland or Poland and what happened to their government, intellectual, military and religious leaders?

Unfortunately for most smaller countries the big countries/super powers like to exert their power and try to make themselves look good while doing it!

The Ukraine has been taken over by a US sponsored, Neo-Nazi led putsch. That is known and proven, as are the political goals of the US- to dismember the Russian Federation, and the Ukrainian fascists- to liquidate all Russian intellectuals as the Nazis did to the Polish, ban all opposition political parties, clear out the civil service of anyone unwilling to implement their reactionary agenda etc etc. Let's not even start on what they have planned for Ukrainian Jews. What is not commonly known is how the Western media are deceiving their people because, far from being "free," they are the property and tools of the super-rich and promote policy of the super-rich as they further enrich themselves and destroy the democracy we grew up in.

Perhaps you'd prefer to wait for the slaughter to start. You know what will happen? We've seen it a few times already. The media will drag out a load of hand wringing liberals and pseudo-lefts who will tell us what a tragedy it all is, but, of course, nobody could have anticipated it.

Russia has no moral high ground and can offer no progressive solution to this crisis. It is an oppressive nation and seeks to dominate those close to it, in part to protect the economic interests of its oligarchy, but also because the Russian elite know the US and EU are bent on destroying it. It is not the instigator of the crisis however. Let the Russians deal with Putin and the oligarchs. The duty of every working class westerner is to create a political organisation to turn the aggressive wars of our rulers into revolutionary wars to overthrow our rulers. What more inspiration could Russian and Ukrainian workers need, to deal with Putin and the Kiev fascists?

#83: Re: The Ukraine Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:17 pm
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sieterayos wrote (View Post):

Did anyone object to the elections held in Iraq under the guns of a universally loathed and feared occupation force that was deliberately stoking sectarian conflict to divide and rule the population? Not to mention abducting, torturing and murdering suspected political opponents in the tens of thousands? Utterly illegal under international law, yet because the US was overseeing it, no one in mainstream politics did more than wring their hands in mock concern.

That's becuase the US needs more experience in these matters. It will take decades before the US can hone their skills to the levels attained by the USSR and now days the RF. Laughing

If I am not mistaken, the USSR still holds the Un-Official World Record for eliminating tens of millions of political and religious dissenters in a single conflict. A truely inspiring "Gold Medal" effort.

#84: Re: The Ukraine Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:38 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

sieterayos wrote (View Post):

That's becuase the US needs more experience in these matters. It will take decades before the US can hone their skills to the levels attained by the USSR and now days the RF. Laughing

I think a lot of people objected. Didn't we hear about it in the news every day for years? I think even the UN said it was illegal.

#85: Re: The Ukraine Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:47 pm
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This government held elections on January 30, 2005 to begin the process of writing a constitution. International groups and the formerly excluded factions claimed that the January 2005 elections were the first free elections in Iraq's history, with a fair representation of all groups. This is in stark contrast to previous elections. After the 16 October, 2002 referendum on the extension of his role as President, Saddam Hussein claimed that %100 of the voters voted "yes" and that %100 of Iraqi's had voted (approximately 24,001,820 people).

Elections in Iraq

Last edited by Stwa on Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:32 am; edited 2 times in total

#86: Re: The Ukraine Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:49 pm
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Since Vladimir Putin became President of Russia there has been increasing international criticism of the conduct of Russian elections. European institutions who observed the December 2007 legislative elections concluded that these were not fair elections. Göran Lennmarker, president of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), said that the elections "failed to meet many of the commitments and standards that we have. It was not a fair election." -wiki

Elections in Russia

Last edited by Stwa on Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:39 am; edited 2 times in total

#87: Re: The Ukraine Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:51 pm
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I think a lot of people objected. Didn't we hear about it in the news every day for years? I think even the UN said it was illegal. - mooxe

How would I know, I live in Arizona. That's not exactly the US, now is it? Laughing

Me thinks the NSA is recording this thread. Shocked

#88: Re: The Ukraine Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:38 am
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sieterayos,

I read the Jewish papers online daily for the "truth" factor and believe you are correct in the anti semite regard being thrown around the press, such as the known to stretch the truth NYT..

Check this story out from yesterday for example from The Times of Israel:

Times of Israel

It's got a twist the far left (US) press doesn't want to print, or even think of.

#89: Re: The Ukraine Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:45 am
—

Quote:

How would I know, I live in Arizona. That's not exactly the US, now is it?

You gotta' be kidding STWA?? That is one of the free est states in the Union! LOW taxes, OPEN CARRY, plenty of free and open ground to live on if you wish?

My wife and I visited back in '08.. We ever move and it's NE Arizona bro.. Florida USED to be like Arizona is, but it's done gone off and filled up with Yankees now. Open ground and Citrus groves are all gone.. Destroyed.

#90: Re: The Ukraine Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:41 am
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You gotta' be kidding STWA?? That is one of the free est states in the Union! LOW taxes, OPEN CARRY, plenty of free and open ground to live on if you wish? My wife and I visited back in '08.. We ever move and it's NE Arizona bro... - johnsivler

Translation

I want to move from the US to Arizona, so I can be free. Idea

BTW, the video is shot somewhere near Rte 87 and AZ 260 which intersect in Payson or Rte 87 and US 40 and intersect near Winslow. [near the Navajo Res ... in NE AZ] Hint

maybe the Navajo Res is not part of the US either, dunno Question

Be careful, US forumites ... Confused

Obama May Seize Your Assets

Don't worry. I am pretty sure the NSA has already seen this video. Razz

... After all "NSA" is bound to be a keyword when they search through the "metdata". Exclamation

Link

At one point the guys in the video were local heros (to some). They were able to get the state to remove all the photo radar sites. So here is another video.

Link

Last edited by Stwa on Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:50 am; edited 1 time in total

#91: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:47 am
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

And which conflict would that be?

#92: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:51 am
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Stwa wrote (View Post):

sieterayos wrote (View Post):

That's becuase the US needs more experience in these matters. It will take decades before the US can hone their skills to the levels attained by the USSR and now days the RF. Laughing

I think a lot of people objected. Didn't we hear about it in the news every day for years? I think even the UN said it was illegal.

Clearly you remember my voice and those of other unofficial dissenters more than the UN, Mooxe. Smile

AS far as I recall, the UN actually oversaw the elections to give them a veneer of legitimacy. What could be more criminal?

#93: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:57 am
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

This government held elections on January 30, 2005 to begin the process of writing a constitution. International groups and the formerly excluded factions claimed that the January 2005 elections were the first free elections in Iraq's history, with a fair representation of all groups. This is in stark contrast to previous elections. After the 16 October, 2002 referendum on the extension of his role as President, Saddam Hussein claimed that %100 of the voters voted "yes" and that %100 of Iraqi's had voted (approximately 24,001,820 people).

Elections in Iraq

So a country under occupation by an illegal invading force which had bombed, murdered, abducted and tortured it into semi-submission held a free and fair election, while the Crimea referendum, held in the presence of a military force welcomed by the majority of the population and which had killed, murdered, tortured or abducted nobody, is illegal. I can see you are as open to reason as the criminals from whom you take your political cue.

#94: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:59 am
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

Since Vladimir Putin became President of Russia there has been increasing international criticism of the conduct of Russian elections. European institutions who observed the December 2007 legislative elections concluded that these were not fair elections. Göran Lennmarker, president of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), said that the elections "failed to meet many of the commitments and standards that we have. It was not a fair election." -wiki

Elections in Russia

No doubt, but who are the US to point a finger?

#95: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:06 am
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

sieterayos,

I read the Jewish papers online daily for the "truth" factor and believe you are correct in the anti semite regard being thrown around the press, such as the known to stretch the truth NYT..

Check this story out from yesterday for example from The Times of Israel:

Times of Israel

It's got a twist the far left (US) press doesn't want to print, or even think of.

You read the Zionist media for the truth? I pity you.

This issue does reveal two things though. The far right elements that say the US does the bidding of a Jewish conspiracy can now see, not that they'll want to, that the Zionists are actually a pawn of US foreign policy. So slavish is their obedience to the pentagon that they will sacrifice their religious brethren to Neo-Nazis in the Ukraine and write horse shit to justify it.

#96: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:24 am
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

Me thinks the NSA is recording this thread. Shocked

When the drone strikes, it strikes. Until then, I keep going.

#97: Re: The Ukraine Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:54 am
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sieterayos wrote (View Post):

Stwa wrote (View Post):

And which conflict would that be?

Impossible to determine the exact amount, even close. Most historians will agree on a general number between 20-40m in Stalin's purges which is more than enough. Can't really say he/Soviets were more evil than hitler at the time as they didn't initiate a war that engulfed the planet. hitler was responsible for that and directly responsible for more deaths.

@ STWA

Be careful, US forumites ... Confused Obama May Seize Your Assets

Don't worry. I am pretty sure the NSA has already seen this video. Razz ... After all "NSA" is bound to be a keyword when they search through the "metdata". Exclamation

You know they track everyone with concealed weapons permits, purchased assault rifles lately dude. Especially with all the scumbag NE newspapers that have released concealed permit holders of late. I have a permit, had it for years in Florida. Have probably long been on these goof balls list. Shocked

Don't matter to me.

The far right elements that say the US does the bidding of a Jewish conspiracy can now see, not that they'll want to, that the Zionists are actually a pawn of US foreign policy.

Haven't heard that very often with this administration, even really the last 20 years. I'd like to see Israel just say F*6K Y*U to the US and go fix it's problem that's been brewing again after the last 35 year problem. The middle east is due for another lesson on warfare and they are the ones who know how to teach it.

#98: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:34 am
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

sieterayos wrote (View Post):

Stwa wrote (View Post):

And which conflict would that be?

I would have thought you'd thoroughly approve. Stalin undid the social relations established by the Bolshevik revolution and wiped out several generations of Marxists, his greatest and most enduring achievement for today's oligarchs.

The figure you cite is clearly inaccurate by its own parameters, but also lumps together intentional murder and the result of mind blowingly stupid economic and social policy which goes beyond the scope of the great purges.

Assuming we are to judge the "evil" of an individual or regime by the raw figures of their victims- a big assumption- that leaves Stalin/USSR trailing far behind the US. Quite apart from the extermination of the indigenous Americans, the holocaust of slaves, the victims of colonial oppression and the first concentration camps- a US invention in the Philippines, and the obvious casualties of US imperialist aggression in, for the sake of brevity, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Honduras, Chile, Nicaragua and Indonesia, Vietnam, there are the countless millions who die each and every year from poverty and starvation, held in subjugation by the US, its proxies and supported regimes who favour US banks and corporations.

No need to be so modest, the US ruling class and its stooges took gold again.

#99: Re: The Ukraine Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:44 am
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I can see you are as open to reason as the criminals from whom you take your political cue. -sieterayos

I suppose you directed this comment to me?

FWI,

The bolded italisized comments in red fonts within the posts that you quoted are not MY words, but rather quotes from articles held within the Wiki. The underlined phrases in those same posts are actually links to the same Wiki articles, so forumites can check them out and determine for themselves if they are germain to this conversation.

Remember to click on the underlined phrases (they are somewhat obvious) to take you to the actual article. Idea

Here, you can practice with this one.

Elections in Iraq

#100: Re: The Ukraine Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:54 am
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

Can't really say he/Soviets were more evil than hitler at the time as they didn't initiate a war that engulfed the planet. hitler was responsible for that and directly responsible for more deaths.
.

I dont belive Hitler/germany alone started WW2, ever Heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

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