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#61: Re: The Ukraine Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:52 am
—

Quote:

Except for those pesky facts like annexing S. Ossetia

South Ossetia is not a part of RF...

#62: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:23 am
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Except for those pesky facts like annexing S. Ossetia and now Crimea. Troops are now amassing along the broader eastern border with Ukraine. So yeah who knew what Putin could gain from that.

Rolling Eyes

[/quote]

There speaks the great strategist, from his armchair, as he momentarily tears his gaze from CNN imperialist news.

An EU commission found Georgia legally responsible for the conflict with Russia. That it embarked on an attack against Russia was only because it believed the US would back it up. But Georgia was always a pawn to probe the Russians for the US. Little snippets of land are nothing in the game being played by the US. The Ukraine is another matter.

It's a shame all those CSO discussions are lost. The positions I put forward I guess would be about 90% vindicated. The crash of '08 which I predicted as imminent in '05 is nowhere near over. In fact, the contradictions that created it are not only unresolved but intensifying, preparing a new crash of even more catastrophic proportions.

The Obama administration, hailed by many as a reversal of its reactionary predecessor, has gone far beyond any before it, in dismantling the US constitution and democracy. In the face of intractable economic decline and an ever widening gap in social inequality, the democratic norms of government of the West are being replaced by a police state apparatus with an elected façade in which all political parties represent the same super-rich interests. Nowhere is this more advanced than in the US.

Using the military might that is residual to its former economic supremacy, the US is seeking to isolate China, Russia and any state that refuses to do its bidding, and to destroy them. The German led EU is an emerging rival.

That is the meaning of US involvement in the Ukraine. The world's populations are being sleep walked by the capitalist media into world war three.

#63: Re: The Ukraine Author: dj,

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:15 pm
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Russia still was itching to get revenge against the separatists in the South...and the U.S. even under an imperialist war-hawk president did not intervene. Although Senator McCain and his war-hawk friends at that time did in fact try to prop-up the Georgian regime but their alliance failed to get enough political support. The U.S. has little interest in getting involved in the internal affairs of former USSR nations. Are you not watching your BBC or other outlets??? Do you not see what the people of Ukraine are doing?

Wow you sound like you have been indoctrinated by Rupert Murdoch Corp in accusing Obama of violation of Constitution. I assume you are referring to the Intel agency scandals. Now there is a brand new scandal exposed by Obama's own party. Senator Feinstein made accusations about spying on the very committee assigned to oversight of the Intel agencies. Nice try... These are Institutional issues that really answer to no party or partisan teams...regardless of whom is elected to political office. BTW - Feinstein was attempting to subpoena records about torture at the time she alleged her committee was under surveillance. So please enlighten me on how that is trampling on the Constitution when she is the one attempting to expose injustice in the first place.

Re: Ukraine, the U.S. really has not much appetite to get involved. Just as Putin was the guy who stopped military action in Syria, the U.S. is simply trying to diffuse the situation and be a peacemaker. I do give credit to Putin for his brilliant strategy in Syria, to preserve lucrative $ arms deals, while preventing another wasteful war in the Mid-East. Like I said he is a very shrewd and calculating leader.

#64: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:47 pm
—

dj wrote (View Post):

Russia still was itching to get revenge against the separatists in the South...and the U.S. even under an imperialist war-hawk president did not intervene. Although Senator McCain and his war-hawk friends at that time did in fact try to prop-up the Georgian regime but their alliance failed to get enough political support. The U.S. has little interest in getting involved in the internal affairs of former USSR nations. Are you not watching your BBC or other outlets??? Do you not see what the people of Ukraine are doing?

Wow you sound like you have been indoctrinated by Rupert Murdoch Corp in accusing Obama of violation of Constitution. I assume you are referring to the Intel agency scandals. Now there is a brand new scandal exposed by Obama's own party. Senator Feinstein made accusations about spying on the very committee assigned to oversight of the Intel agencies. Nice try... These are Institutional issues that really answer to no party or partisan teams...regardless of whom is elected to political office. BTW - Feinstein was attempting to subpoena records about torture at the time she alleged her committee was under surveillance. So please enlighten me on how that is trampling on the Constitution when she is the one attempting to expose injustice in the first place.

Re: Ukraine, the U.S. really has not much appetite to get involved. Just as Putin was the guy who stopped military action in Syria, the U.S. is simply trying to diffuse the situation and be a peacemaker. I do give credit to Putin for his brilliant strategy in Syria, to preserve lucrative $ arms deals, while preventing another wasteful war in the Mid-East. Like I said he is a very shrewd and calculating leader.

The only difference between McCain, Obama and any other faction is tactical. That is, timing, and pre-requisites. They are all bent on dismembering the Russian federation because the policy runs through all administrations until it is accomplished or the US is no longer able to pursue the project. I suggest you subscribe to STRATFOR and read what your leaders read and consider. That will help you put into context the crap put out for public consumption on CNN, Fox or the BBC.

As mentioned in my first post, Victoria Nuland admitted the US has spent $5 billion since the 1990s on regime change in the Ukraine alone, she didn't give figures for money used in the Caucasus. That is the extent in USD terms that the US is uninterested in getting involved in the former USSR republics.

That an adversary exists capable of restraining US aggression is a reason to get rid of them, not one to avoid confrontation. Again, timing is the issue, not difference of ultimate aim. Again, read Zbigniew Brzezinski or STRATFOR. Arms sales has little to do with Putin's obstruction of US policy. Did CNN tell you that? The policy of the US is to surround an isolate Iran as a key ally of Russia and China. Syria is an ally of and supported by, Iran. The US had broken Iranian resistance through sanctions, sufficiently to move on for the moment. The end game is always Russia and China.

Only the CIA scandals? Snowdon has blown the criminality of the CIA wide out into the open, exposing material I wouldn't even have thought possible. Thanks Edward, every freedom lover owes you a debt of gratitude.

You attempt to defend Obama by pointing out that the issue of the CIA is institutional, yet you are doubtless oblivious to the logic of your own argument, that the CIA is out of control, behaving as it wishes, regardless of which administration controls the White House.

Why is Feinstein making accusations against the CIA? She has been covering for them for years, and as she admitted, tried to settle any issues behind closed doors, out of sight of the US and world's population. In other words, she is as culpable for the dismantling of the US constitution as much as Bush and Obama. The CIA threatened her and her committee because they will no longer accept any oversight, however perfunctory, whatsoever. She went to the Senate like a frightened rabbit. The agencies of state oppression, surveillance and violence now operate with autonomy from any government oversight, domestically and overseas, relative autonomy from the class whose interests they serve, in other words, they are out of control. Yet Obama defends them and nobody within the US ruling class is interested in taking them on. Only the American working class has the power and interest in overthrowing this tyranny.

If you think that mass indiscriminate surveillance, assassination by presidential decree, torture, abduction and detention, the abolition of habeas corpus, the list is endless, has nothing to do with the destruction of the US constitution and democracy, you've been drinking too much soma and for much too long.

#65: Re: The Ukraine Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:37 pm
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Media reports there's only two options on the voting cards.

1. Join Russia
2. Become independant

What about stay with Ukraine?

#66: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:49 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Media reports there's only two options on the voting cards.

1. Join Russia
2. Become independant

What about stay with Ukraine?

False report. Options are Join Russia or remain within Ukraine with more autonomy.

#67: Re: The Ukraine Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:57 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Media reports there's only two options on the voting cards.
1. Join Russia
2. Become independant
What about stay with Ukraine?

interesting reports you have :)

1) to join the RF.
2) to stay with Ukraine but with more autonomy.

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#68: Re: The Ukraine Author: dj,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:13 pm
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Kind of like how many American elections are rigged by unlimited campaign $$$ from secret donors that do not have to disclose their info. Democracy for sale for the highest bidder or by the leader with the most guns. Sasha Cohen "Dictator" style.

#69: Re: The Ukraine Author: tedy28,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:24 pm
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http://fakty.interia.pl/raport-zamieszki-na-ukrainie/galerie/glosowanie-na-krymie-z-urna-do-domow-zdjecie,iId,1392062,iAId,111470
referendum Smile

)

#70: Re: The Ukraine Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:47 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Media reports there's only two options on the voting cards.

1. Join Russia
2. Become independant

What about stay with Ukraine?

What about other countries?

3. Join Jamaica
4. Join Turkey
5. Join Mexico

#71: Re: The Ukraine Author: pvt_Grunt, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:57 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

3. Join Jamaica

They would need to chnge their name to JACRAINE.

#72: Re: The Ukraine Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:57 pm
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tedy28 wrote (View Post):

http://fakty.interia.pl/raport-zamieszki-na-ukrainie/galerie/glosowanie-na-krymie-z-urna-do-domow-zdjecie,iId,1392062,iAId,111470
referendum Smile

)

home voting is a normal practice to cover disabled people for example.

#73: Re: The Ukraine Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:17 pm
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By this moment exit polls show 93% voted for #1.

#74: Re: The Ukraine Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:31 pm
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Not surprising results given;

- their Russian language and recent (as far as countries/peoples) attachment to the Ukraine
- economic dependence on the Russian military bases
- and oh ya the thousands of guys with guns

#75: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:44 pm
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Tejszd wrote (View Post):

Not surprising results given;

... ....
- and oh ya the thousands of guys with guns

Did anyone object to the elections held in Iraq under the guns of a universally loathed and feared occupation force that was deliberately stoking sectarian conflict to divide and rule the population? Not to mention abducting, torturing and murdering suspected political opponents in the tens of thousands? Utterly illegal under international law, yet because the US was overseeing it, no one in mainstream politics did more than wring their hands in mock concern.

By comparison, the guns of any Russian soldiers and volunteers who are protecting the population from fascist usurpers in Kiev whose stated aim is to liquidate all Russian intellectuals, seems reasonable and democratic.

Just shows, with regard to legality, it's not what you do but who you are.

#76: Re: The Ukraine Author: ke_mechial,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:29 pm
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Today I was watching CNN. They interviewed with an Ukrainian woman who ran a store in a border town with russia, besides her home was just near border about 50 meters away from Russia. She was just worried about, in case Border is closed , which means no customers from Russia, or if some clash begins that she is just on the frontline. Other people they interviewed seemed to be unhappy about situation,too. They say that Europe has just been demanding until now, before it gives anything. It seems to me, Ukraine relies more on Russia in terms of Trade, until they form an economy with EU, which is already in tight situations economically, and I do not see that this can be easily set up in short term.

And I think the bottomline and the real question is: When will Ukraine prospectively become an EU-Member? It is a fact that Ukraine has valuable vast resources, ( and what everything goes about), but EU was anxious about visa-issue about Romania just short time ago.

#77: Re: The Ukraine Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:01 pm
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The new status of Russian MID (foreign affairs ministry) on FB
https://www.facebook.com/MIDRussia/posts/467855943313852 :

Wait for me, and I'll come back!
Wait with all you've got!
Wait, when dreary yellow rains
Tell you, you should not.
Wait when snow is falling fast,
Wait when summer's hot,
Wait when yesterdays are past,
Others are forgot.
Wait, when from that far-off place,
Letters don't arrive.
Wait, when those with whom you wait
Doubt if I'm alive.

Wait for me, and I'll come back!
Wait in patience yet
When they tell you off by heart
That you should forget.
Even when my dearest ones
Say that I am lost,
Even when my friends give up,
Sit and count the cost,
Drink a glass of bitter wine
To the fallen friend -
Wait! And do not drink with them!
Wait until the end!

Wait for me and I'll come back,
Dodging every fate!
"What a bit of luck!" they'll say,
Those that would not wait.
They will never understand
How amidst the strife,
By your waiting for me, dear,
You had saved my life.
Only you and I will know
How you got me through.
Simply - you knew how to wait -
No one else but you.

(Konstantin Simonov)

Now that's really frightening Sad

#78: Re: The Ukraine Author: sieterayos,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:31 pm
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To anyone unfamiliar with the above, Konstantin Simonov was a poet for the Stalinist counter revolution. This is a WW 2 war poem about a soldier asking his woman to wait for him. This posting would suggest that the Russian Federation is preparing for war, either an invasion, or, more likely, preparing to repel a Ukrainian fascist/NATO attempt to retake the Crimea.

#79: Re: The Ukraine Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:36 pm
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Russian reporter voted using only her Russian passport as identity. Says she is a a citizen of Russia, not of Crimea or the Ukraine. There's so many voter fraud stories coming out on ALL news outlets. Minorities in Crimea boycotting vote.

Ukraine says they will not initiate any military action in Crimea because it will leave their Eastern borders less secure. The Ukraine knows Crimea is lost. If its the people's true wish to join Russia, military action would be futile.

Here in Canada we have our own separatist movement in Quebec. Its been going on for years and is gaining light in media again recently. The separatist party very narrowly lost a referendum in 1995 by less than 1%, and they had 93% voter turnout. There was tons of campaigning spanning weeks and weeks. That referendum was not rushed and there was no military involvement. There was no fear, only uncertainty over the future if they did split from Canada. Maybe it was only a matter of time before Crimea split anyways. However, this referendum seems very rushed and very forced.

Last edited by mooxe on Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

#80: Re: The Ukraine Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:43 pm
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Perhaps Dima can tell us, but dint the people of former USSR receive a national passport of choice? As I remember, many of the SO people had Russian passports, not Georgian. Beeing Russian in Crimea would then mean they got a Russian passport... ? Dima??

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