Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post): |
The T-34 was best as a shock to knock the Germans out of the drunken complacency that they were entertaining that the Russians were going to be an easy victory. Once the numbers of them on the battlefield were considerable they made almost all of the tank and AT German Weaponry at the time, except for the 88, obsolete. Their introduction helped to hasten the Tiger I and the up gunning of all the German tanks that were still able to be. Until the advent of the T-34 and the KV the plans were to have the Tiger at 50mm armor with a short 75. Obviously, that changed considerably. The Tiger I was eventually designed to withstand the 76mm hits from the frontal arc.
I remember reading where Guerderian was relating a conversation with the Russian military observers before the war as both armies were conducting wargames in Russia. The Russian officers were asking if that was all of the tanks the Germans had as they had not brought out the new T-34s at the time. They were surprised to learn that it was. Obviously, the Russians were not impressed by what they saw from the Germans. Even though the T-34 was eventually outclassed by the Panther the Germans never could approach the production numbers attained by the T-34. It was always a great breakthrough tank. |
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he T-34 was best as a shock to knock the Germans out of the drunken complacency that they were entertaining that the Russians were going to be an easy victory. |
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Once the numbers of them on the battlefield were considerable they made almost all of the tank and AT German Weaponry at the time, except for the 88, obsolete. |
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Their introduction helped to hasten the Tiger I and the up gunning of all the German tanks that were still able to be. Until the advent of the T-34 and the KV the plans were to have the Tiger at 50mm armor with a short 75. Obviously, that changed considerably. The Tiger I was eventually designed to withstand the 76mm hits from the frontal arc. |
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I remember reading where Guerderian was relating a conversation with the Russian military observers before the war as both armies were conducting wargames in Russia. The Russian officers were asking if that was all of the tanks the Germans had as they had not brought out the new T-34s at the time. They were surprised to learn that it was. Obviously, the Russians were not impressed by what they saw from the Germans. |
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Even though the T-34 was eventually outclassed by the Panther the Germans never could approach the production numbers attained by the T-34. It was always a great breakthrough tank. |
jakebullet70 wrote (View Post): |
Only around 8,550 PzIV made to a whole lot of T34's |
Dima wrote (View Post): | ||
the Germans could produce many more PzIV or Panthers or Tigers, the problem was not in production capacities but in production idea i.e. the amount of produced AVFs was equal to amount of trained crews available and not more. when they started to train crews faster they started to produce more AVFs but that was already too late. |
Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post): |
Well Dima, I reread the part of the book in question and if we are in fact referring to the same book by Guderian I quote the pertinent paragraph. The context I was referring to was wrong, as it was not part of the wargames in Russia, but the subject matter was still correct:
In the spring of 1941 Hitler had specifically ordered that a Russian military commission be shown over our tank schools and factories; in this order he had insisted that nothing be concealed from them. The Russian officers in question firmly refused to believe that the Panzer IV was in fact our heaviest tank. They said repeatedly that we must be hiding our newest models from them, and complained that we were not carrying out Hitler’s order to show them everything. The military commission was so insistent on this point that eventually our manufacturers and Ordnance Office officials concluded: ‘It seems that the Russians must already possess better and heavier tanks than we do.’ It was at the end of July 1941, that the T34 tank appeared at the front and the riddle of the new Russian model was solved. (Panzer Leader, pg 119) |
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So tell me now, what was so wrong with this part of what I said? |
jakebullet70 wrote (View Post): | ||||
Bull crap. Please show me where you read that information. LOL |
Dima wrote (View Post): | ||||||
Ahh good case of agressive irrogance! If my statement is wrong you can easily prove it is wrong...please . |
jakebullet70 wrote (View Post): | ||||||||
I asked you to show me this information... I asked you... Why did you turn it around and ask me? LOL Your funny... You made the statement about production so prove it. Educate me. Please. |
Dima wrote (View Post): | ||
the Germans could produce many more PzIV or Panthers or Tigers, the problem was not in production capacities but in production idea i.e. the amount of produced AVFs was equal to amount of trained crews available and not more. when they started to train crews faster they started to produce more AVFs but that was already too late. |
AT_Stalky wrote (View Post): | ||||
Dima, wasnt it also the fuel capacity and battefield logistics that was a bottleneck for germans limiting the number of AFW and motorization? |
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1) The Germans had much better production capabilities than the USSR. 2) The Germans could easily produce 20.000 armored vehicles a year on same facilities. 3) By the end of the war the Germans produced only about 25% less armored vehicles than the USSR. |
jakebullet70 wrote (View Post): |
Yes, I see statements with 0 facts... LOL Where did you get this information? Site sources please. |
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1) Much better? That's why they produces 50% less AFV... Better in what way?
2) 20,000 more per year. I mean with your numbers Germany would of out produces America? really? Site sources!!!!! 3) Wikipedia: Total German AFV output from 1939: 48,777 Total Russian AFV output from 1940: 106,025 I see around 50%... Not 25% |
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LOL, you are funny! Again, site sources... Forgive me if I believe Wikipedia before I believe you...
Germany would of out produces America? really? ROFLMAO Oh this one is killing me.. |
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But again, If I am wrong then please show me by siting sources. I am always willing to learn. |
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