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#1: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Bungarra, Location: Murchison region, West Australia

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:04 am
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Sort of like Deja vue with the worst possible ending

Is this the wake up call Russia needed to pull in these terrorists or will Putin play the high & mighty

Whatever the outcome 298 people lost their lives from across the spectrum of the international community.

I personally think this is the rebels last hurrah because someones going to do something about it & it won't be pretty.

Whatever credibility these people had is dashed.

My sympathy's to the families.

#2: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: dj,

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:05 am
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Malasian Airlines can not catch a break. Why out of all the possible Airline Companies on the planet did it have to be another Malaysian Airlines flight? The worst possible luck for them. Everyone is STILL wondering what happened to the first flight that crashed, who knows where in the Ocean. Then this happened?

It was definitely the heavily armed Russian-backed separatists. Also dumb for the international community to allow civilian international flight path over active war zone. Russia had advisors helping them, as high altitude SA missile launch equipment is too complicated for the Separatists to understand how to use themselves. This was big mistake, either if accident or if they attacked civilian flight on purpose.
It makes the Ukrainian Separatist and their Russian advisors look like gangsters. Now Europe has to get serious with reprisals or sanctions if something is really going to happen. US is still busy in Iraq, Afganistan, can't risk nuclear war with Russia, not worth it. I knew Putin would make mistake like this, and he knows he messed up.

#3: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:59 pm
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Yeah major faux pas.

If this was false flag I don't know, we the bottom plebs will never know what goes on at the top levels, it is all speculation. I don't like conspiracies but isn't it strange that out of dozens of airlines it happens to Malaysia airlines AGAIN? not implying anything just that sometimes real life is weird like that.

What will happen now? is Europe or even America strong enough to intervene in eastern Ukraine at risk of full blown war vs the russians? or will they just fund the Western Ukrainian govt. to fight proxy war like the good old days? will Russia follow? They can't have the west right there on their backyard.

#4: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:34 pm
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That's a major fuck up and I'd wait for a report from the comission sent there for investigation to make any blames.
Too much lie and disinformation is coming from all sides.

I recall once everyone was blaming the RF for invading one small country in August 2008...

doubt any real war can happen but a new round of sanctions supported by the EU could be very painfull for the RF for sure.

#5: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:07 pm
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When I first heard about what happened I immediately thought of Russian supplied arms to the rebels.

#6: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:51 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

When I first heard about what happened I immediately thought of Russian supplied arms to the rebels.

and the first thought I had - fuck that's a prince Ferdinand circa 2014 Sad

#7: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:43 am
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Ahh, yes, i've just recalled something called Iraqi WMD announced by the president of the USA one day.

Let's see how it goes though....

#8: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: mooxe,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:29 am
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Not sure where you are going with both statements.

#9: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:21 am
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At a June 30 Pentagon news conference, NATO Supreme Commander Gen. Philip Breedlove said Russia had been providing air defense training to Russian separatists on its side of the border with Ukraine that focused on “vehicle-borne” surface-to-air missiles.

ABC News Story and photo

#10: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: vobbnobb,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:35 am
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Those massive long range mobile SAMs are old, SA-11 etc and have been in and around that region for 20+ years since fall of Soviet Union. Anyone could have had the training they are not new, if that's what brought it down and not something inside the plane.

#11: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:48 am
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US_Brake wrote (View Post):

At a June 30 Pentagon news conference, NATO Supreme Commander Gen. Philip Breedlove said Russia had been providing air defense training to Russian separatists on its side of the border with Ukraine that focused on “vehicle-borne” surface-to-air missiles.
ABC News Story and photo

yeah and they also see thousands of Russian troops next to the Ukranian border - but looks like they are so close to nature ((C) Melentin) and so camouflaged so they couldn't be seen from satelites...hence no photos of them.
but yeah, who cares about proves when there are believes...

Quote:

Those massive long range mobile SAMs are old, SA-11 etc and have been in and around that region for 20+ years since fall of Soviet Union. Anyone could have had the training they are not new, if that's what brought it down and not something inside the plane.

yeah, for many it could sound unbelivable but such systems are operated by conscripts during their 1-2 year service here.
so there are thousands of ex-conscripts that know how.

#12: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:51 am
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Not sure where you are going with both statements.

fast judgements, long consequences.

guess that's why Russia is crying for the comission to investigate while they are sitting in Kiev...

#13: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:10 am
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Just a reminder:

1988 - US Cruiser Vincennes has shot down the Iranian A-300 with 290 people on board - US president G.Bush said he will not excuse for that. In 1996 the US agreed to pay compensation for the relatives.
2001 - Russian Tu-154 with 88 people on board was shot down by Ukraine during AA trainings - Ukranian president has never excused or confirmed that but in 2004 agreed to pay compensations to the relatives.

#14: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: sample,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:17 am
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dj wrote (View Post):

It was definitely the heavily armed Russian-backed separatists.

Until an independent investigation is taken upon, i wouldn't be so sure in blaming one side or another: all those "hard" evidences involving the presence of WMD in Iraq presented by US administration in the run-up for 2003 invasion, not to mention the Nayirah testimony (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_%28testimony%29) in the first Gulf war, or the use of chemical weapons in Syria in 2013 against civilians when Barack Obama heavily pushed for strikes against Bashar Hafez al-Assad regime based on shallow evidences (a UN investigation concluded that the rockets came most likely from rebel held areas). In all cases the corporate media pushed for war and helped the "win" the public support, or at least to tone down the opponents.
For me it's a clear pattern and i could no longer believe right from the start any official version until backed by an independent investigation.

regards,
m

#15: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: zwizdan007,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:27 am
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Possibility that MH was shot down by AA missile should also be taken into consideration.

My personal opinion, after collecting info from different sources, is that goverment forces shot down MH17.

#16: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:09 pm
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Just a reminder:

April 20, 1978: Korean Air flight 902 reportedly fired on by Soviet jets after it reportedly veered off course near Murmansk, made emergency landing, two passengers killed.

Sept. 1, 1983: Korean Air Boeing 747 shot down by Soviet jets near Sakhalin Island, 269 passengers massacred.

#17: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:05 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

How is this being spun in Russia news...
1. NATO secret operation shoots down civilian aircraft to frame Russia.
2. Rebels captured Ukrainian anti-aircraft hardware and used it to take down a civilian aircraft by accident.
3. Ukrainian regular forces shoot down civilian aircraft.
...and finally the least likely story run in Russian but the most plausible...
4. Russian lent equipment to rebels used to down civilian aircraft.

that's of course not correct...
the main versions basing on damage character are (https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/72157645790319631/):
1. Air-to-Air missile (http://aviaforum.ru/showpost.php?p=1578720&postcount=899; http://politikus.ru/events/24720-strasti-po-boingu-pervye-priznaki-rakety-vozduh-vozduh-sbival-ne-buk-m1.html).
2. Bomb aboard.
3. Ukraine's Buk's very old missile as new missiles do different type of damage.

Some guys have spoted another lie from Ukraine showing their own Buk on trailer (#312) as supplied by Russia. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtAh0dKIUAAx4NN.jpg
The first radio intercept released by Ukraine on July 17th (with date of July 16th btw) appeared to be fraud as well.

And some unofficial info from USA Smile

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

Last edited by Dima on Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

#18: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:11 pm
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The US administration and most US media is pushing this story.

A SAM fired from inside Ukrainian Separatist controlled territory near the border with Russia hit and destroyed MH17. The SAM was fired from a Buk. The assumption is that SAM operators mistook the MH17 for a Ukraine Nationalist Aircraft.

What spin has been put on the story?

Democrats- Putin is to blame

Republicans- Obama is to blame

#19: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: sample,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:33 pm
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apparently, the former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry, who had a key role in covering the Iran-Contra scandal for the Associated Press and Newsweek, has a different story:

"What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.
The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said."

the whole article is here: http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

regards,
m

#20: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: dj,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:30 pm
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sample wrote (View Post):

dj wrote (View Post):

It was definitely the heavily armed Russian-backed separatists.

Yes I get it...when you see the history of lies from previous U.S. President. At least the when we shot down the Iranian aircraft, we acknowledged it was a terrible mistake, there was no lie or cover-up. America does lack some credibility about telling Russia what to do within their own region. But America does not lack credibility when making statements about evidence on the MH17 situation. We definitely have intelligence resources monitoring the situation and there would be no incentive to fabricate facts.

Track record already pre-existed where Ukrainian military jet was just shot down before MH17. Plus how many times have we seen similar reports where Ukrainian helicopters or fixed wing aircraft have been blasted out of the sky...too many to count. By default the separatists within the Ukrainian national boundaries, would not even have any of their own aircraft in the first place. Unless they have a tiny number of Russian-supplied craft...but then Russia would be legally liable for act of war and serving as aggressor in invading Ukraine.

I do not think Russia and their comrade separatists intentionally tried to shoot down civilian international flight. Russia might be acting like Fascist Imperial power right now...but they are not Jihadi Gangsters that kill women and children on purpose.

#21: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:38 pm
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There won't be an "impartial" investigation. The crash site has already been tampered with. Look at the map of where this crash occurred. It's deep in rebel-held territory, and close to the Russian border. But it doesn't matter anyways, various countries have already confirmed what anyone with a smidgin of sense knew right from the start: Russia and it's little rebels in Ukraine are culpable.

Hopefully this means sanctions for Russia, and drastically less imports of their gas to the EU. The west should not be dealing with a one-party regime led by a dictator.

#22: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: mooxe,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:23 pm
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How is this being spun in Russia news...

1. NATO secret operation shoots down civilian aircraft to frame Russia.
2. Rebels captured Ukrainian anti-aircraft hardware and used it to take down a civilian aircraft by accident.
3. Ukrainian regular forces shoot down civilian aircraft.

...and finally the least likely story run in Russian but the most plausible...

4. Russian lent equipment to rebels used to down civilian aircraft.

#23: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: jakebullet70, Location: Washington State / Kherson Ukraine

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:09 am
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I flew into Kiev on Friday and then to Odessa. Flights where delayed a few hours but it was not bad.
From the airports point of view, you would never know there was a conflict in the other part of the country except
we did run into a few of these driving out of Odessa. (Port city?)
They where sandbagged and you had to stop. No one came to the car, you just stopped and drove on.

1280px-ZSU-23-4_Shilka_01.jpg

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#24: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:54 am
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Dima wrote (View Post):

mooxe wrote (View Post):

If you think Dima is an idiot for the absolutely rubbish post above, don't be quick to judge. You would be spewing this crap too if your schoolbooks were censored by Stalin himself. And it's typical Russian nature to always blame the west, and Russians have a penchant for stories that any sensible person would consider complete lunacy.

This kind of "news" is what Russian media tells their citizens and most of them quite willingly believe it all--actually one major Russian newspaper didn't even bother to report on the crash the next day. Russian media (print, TV, internet) is entirely state-controlled. Have no illusions, Russia hasn't changed much from their "glorious" Soviet days--plenty of Russian politicians still consider the communist times the "best of times". Instead of communism, Russia's politics are now resemble national socialism. It's one major party is extremely nationalist, and their only competition is from the communists and a extreme right-wing, hardcore nationalist, and blatantly imperialistic party.

Russia shouldn't be dealt with until they are fully democratic and can attest that at least 50% of their population aren't gullible idiots. The disrespect shown to the victims of this crash is reason alone to not deal with them, Europe has to get their gas from somewhere else.

Ethnic Russians who reside in Ukraine and want to battle with the Ukrainian army will eventually lose, and Ukraine will be better off once the war is won. Ukrainian independence is a battle that Ukrainians have been fighting for a long time, and the events of the last eight months have set things in motion that even comrade Putin can't control. Cheers to future NATO and EU member Ukraine Smile

#25: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: dj,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:07 am
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Well-stated Troger. Soviet and Russian media has long history of this. Putin has been in power since 1999, an eternity in comparison to Western standard for years in office. That was only just a few short years since collapse of USSR.

Still 100 bodies unaccounted for. The Anarchy in the rebel held territory is apparent. Lots of thugs walking around in machine guns, drunk, looting the crash site. I am amazed they were even able to retrieve the black boxes.

"..Russia's politics are now resemble national socialism. It's one major party is extremely nationalist, and their only competition is from the communists and a extreme right-wing, hardcore nationalist, and blatantly imperialistic party."

Sounds a lot like American politics currently as well. We are been pulled to the right by hardcore imperialistic party that is always desperate to start more wars. Then the left is so out of touch with reality focusing on serving their special interest factions...there is no real center any more that governs. We have become a Police-State bordering on fascism...with a whopping 25% of the world prisoner population. Russia seems to be heading in that direction too.

Last edited by dj on Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total

#26: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:49 am
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Troger,

Good that you haven't changed for these 10+ years I know you through CSO/CCS - still the same little brainwashed hater Smile

.

Try to educate yourself a little:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/russia-u-s-show-evidence-kremlin-backed-rebels-downed-mh17-n161806

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/u-s-finds-no-direct-link-russia-downing-mh17-n162426
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/mh17-us-intelligence-russia-separatists-report
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/22/5927837/us-intelligence-officials-just-gave-a-very-unsatisfying-briefing-on

But judging by a level of knowledge of the White House press secretary I bet the majority of the US population would be satisfied to see something like this as a prove for the Russian fault:

Quote:

The disrespect shown to the victims of this crash is reason alone to not deal with them, Europe has to get their gas from somewhere else.

the Dutch are in charge for investigation and beeing Russia trade partner No2 in a volume and not keen to leak the US ass we could hope for adequate conclusions.

#27: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:03 am
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DJ,

Quote:

Still 100 bodies unaccounted for.

I think you are just stupid.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699787/MH17-crash-victims-bodies-tossed-rubbish-trucks-carted-morgue-train.html
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/07/21/more_bodies_found_at_mh17_plane_crash_site_as_un_vote_looms.html
Emergency workers retrieved 21 more bodies Monday from the charred crash site and surrounding fields near the eastern village of Hrabove. Ukraine's prime minister said 272 bodies have been recovered of the 298 people killed aboard the plane.

#28: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:55 am
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Russian are to be happy, they only have to deal with the American right wing- religious- war- mongering idiots.
Americans should be happy too, they only have to deal with the cultural- and tecnologically- always five step behind, agressive -expanding-neo-empire-nationalistic Russians.

But we the Europeans, have to deal with both.

Last edited by AT_Stalky on Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

#29: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:26 pm
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Stalk,

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Russian are to be happy, they only have to deal with the American right wing- religious- war- mongering idiots.
Americans should to be happy too, they only have to deal with the cultural- and tecnologically- always five step behind, agressive -expanding-neo-empire-nationalistic Russians.
But we the Europeans, have to deal with both.

well can argue about culture and we are definately not 5-steps behind technologically, more likely 2-steps in average Wink

#30: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:07 pm
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Hahah!

Mate, here is a list of the world top 500 company brands. Why isn’t there a single Russian brand amongst the world top 100…?

http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2014

We should not really count the companies in natural Resources as they are just considerd "luck", so that make 6 Russian brands amongst world top 500 brands.

Rank; Company; type
106 Sper bank
316 Magnit
406 MTS
423 Beeline
457 VTB bank
470 mega
129 gaz (Natural Resources)
306 Lukoil (Natural Resources)
443 Rosnef (Natural Resources)

Compare that to pathetic little Sweden.. Sweden has 9 mil people, while Russia has 150+ mil people…

Here are the 7 Swede's on the world top 500 brands:
Rank; Company; type
53 IKEA
104 HM
164 Ericson
166 Nordea
414 Volvo
465 Skanska
473 SHB

Take a look at that list, I only went through it in a haste. Laughing

Perhaps I made some serious serious mistakes… Misstakes that suggests Russia to be the tec/cult world leader, or at least score unity at a per capita ranking… LOL

Dima, please, help me make a list of the top 500 World artists. (top Selling albums)..
Or about pure tec indicators like; patents granted per capita... Or academic pub per capita...

Ohh, crap i forgot, Russian Vodka is a world success. I hold Smirnoff as one of the greatest vodka of this planet. Laughing

#31: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:15 pm
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Dima wrote (View Post):

Troger,

Good that you haven't changed for these 10+ years I know you through CSO/CCS - still the same little brainwashed hater Smile

Hey!!! Dude, I was trying to defend you! Other people who see your post might think you are a crazy person, but I know that you can't help it, you're just a Russian being a Russian.

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Russian are to be happy, they only have to deal with the American right wing- religious- war- mongering idiots.
Americans should be happy too, they only have to deal with the cultural- and tecnologically- always five step behind, agressive -expanding-neo-empire-nationalistic Russians.

But we the Europeans, have to deal with both.

It's true, American society is around 30% of the type you mentioned above, and they are as bad as a Kremlin propagandist--but they are not representative of the entire U.S. population. The vast majority of Russian society is like Dima (a normal guy of seemingly normal intelligence) who are completely willing to believe all the lies their government tells them. But if we grew up in a oppressed society where every single thing was censored and twisted, we'd be the same way.

I'd disagree with you that Europe doesn't have to deal with Russia. They absolutely do have to deal with Russia, and are the only ones that can make a meaningful impact--and this plane crash should serve as a call to action. Russia's economy is a one trick pony, their main industry is gas and the main importer of that gas is Europe. Russia, either directly or indirectly, just caused a plane load of Dutch people (and others) to die a horrible death. You tell me how a Dutch politician (or any EU politician) with any conscious can continue the import of Russian gas (which only serves to fund a corrupt Russian society)?

It's the U.S. that doesn't have to deal with them, and yet the Obama administration has been quicker to condemn and respond to Russian aggression than any European nation.

#32: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:24 pm
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Hay Troger!

Troger wrote (View Post):

I'd disagree with you that Europe doesn't have to deal with Russia.

Hm, I actually said:

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

But we the Europeans, have to deal with both.

So I agree with you. We the European have to deal with BOTH the 30% of Americans that might just win the next election and the Russians.

#33: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:32 pm
—

Troger wrote (View Post):

You tell me how a Dutch politician (or any EU politician) with any conscious can continue the import of Russian gas (which only serves to fund a corrupt Russian society)? It's the U.S. that doesn't have to deal with them, and yet the Obama administration has been quicker to condemn and respond to Russian aggression than any European nation.

I’m Swede, part Finland.
We have dealt with Russia for 400 years or more, long before America was a nation.
As soon as we have a problem, we just have to scratch the surface at it and there is a little Russian tsar popping out, whit, red or brown. No matter color they are the same.
As a nation, we would not ever trust Russia, plugging in to Russian gas was just a laugh here… And we rolled our eyes when Germans et al went for that idea.

But here we are.

#34: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:50 pm
—
Stalk,

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Hahah!
Mate, here is a list of the world top 500 company brands. Why isn’t there a single Russian brand amongst the world top 100…?
http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2014
We should not really count the companies in natural Resources as they are just considerd "luck", so that make 6 Russian brands amongst world top 500 brands.
Rank; Company; type
106 Sper bank
316 Magnit
406 MTS
423 Beeline
457 VTB bank
470 mega
129 gaz (Natural Resources)
306 Lukoil (Natural Resources)
443 Rosnef (Natural Resources)

I think that's a pretty good result as 23 years ago there was not any of the Russian company in that list, don't you think? ;)

Quote:

Ohh, crap i forgot, Russian Vodka is a world success. I hold Smirnoff as one of the greatest vodka of this planet. Laughing

Smirnoff is not a Russian vodka and it sux actually Wink

#35: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:11 pm
—

Dima wrote (View Post):

Smirnoff is not a Russian vodka

Ohh, I had no idea.. Laughing

#36: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:56 pm
—

Dima wrote (View Post):

I think that's a pretty good result as 23 years ago there was not any of the Russian company in that list, don't you think? Wink

No, I dont Think that.

Dima mate. I love you like a brother. But I have issues with Russia under Putin. And so ought you have too.

You think Russia has become better or something since Soviet era? You’re impressed by the performance of Russia under Putin?

So Russia now have 6 companies of the World top 500… And that’s impressive according to you? Of a nation of 150+ mil? Seriously?

Lets look at other indicators of national performance. Average life expectancy is a grate indicator of a socio/economic performance. It gives a comprehensive unbiased indicator of social and economical development.

I’m using WHO data of life expectancy in the year 1990 and 2012:

In 1990 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.

Wow, the absolute difference in Russian life expectancy has not changed at all over a 22 year period from the soviet era in 1990, to Putins Russia in 2012. Is that grate performance according to you? ZERO increase, is that grate preformance???

Lets look at other countries, and see how they developed:
In 1990 China had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 China had an average life expectancy of 75 years.

So, China has a better statistics here. They increased the life expectancy from 69 years 1990 to 75 years in 2012. That’s an increase in 6 years, compared to Russias 0 [zero] years.

Lets look at other countries, and see how they developed:
In 1990 Ecuador had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 Ecuador had an average life expectancy of 75 years.

So, Ecuador has better statistics than Putins Russia in the same period. Hm what does that suggest?

Lets look at other countries, and see how they developed:
In 1990 Indonesia had an average life expectancy of 62 years.
In 2012 Indonesia had an average life expectancy of 71 years.

Hm, so Indonesia has had some good development, starting from low 3-rd world figures, and now beats Russia with 2 years. What does that tell you Dima?

Lets be very fair here. Lets look at the former Soviet States and Soviet stateliest and see how they developed compared to Russia, in the same period 1990 and 2012 figures.. This ought to give a good indicator of performance as all the sates was soviet controlled or communist satellites in 1990. Thus they started from similar conditions in 1990, this ought to give an very fair good indicator of preformance.

A reminder of Russian development in life expectancy from 1990 to 2012:

In 1990 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.

This is easy to remember, Putins Russia had ZERO [0] increase in life expectancy in the 22 years from 1990 to 2012.

Lets look at the former soviet state Kyrgyzstan, and see how they developed from 1990 to 2012:
In 1990 Kyrgyzstan (under Soviet/Russian domination) had an average life expectancy of 66 years.
In 2012 Kyrgyzstan had a average life expectancy of 69 years.

So, since Kyrgyzstan was made independent from Soviet/Russia its life expectancy has increased, while at the same time Putins Russia life expectancy has not increased. Is Putin more than a nationalistic wind-bag?

Lets look at other countries in the former Soviet/Russian empire, and see how they developed:
In 1990 Uzbecistan (under Soviet/Russian era) had an average life expectancy of 67 years.
In 2012 the free Uzbecistan had a average life expectancy of 69 years.

Hm, LOL; the powerhouse of Uzbecistan has now the same life expectancy as Putin-Russia…

Lets look at other countries in the former Soviet/Russian empire, and see how they developed:
In 1990 Latvia (under Soviet/Russian era) had a average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 the free Lativia had a average life expectancy of 79 years.

Wow, since Latvia was made independent from Russia in 1990 up to 2012 its life expectancy has increased with 10 years… How come Dima? Why has Putins Russia failed so badly in an comparison?

Lets look at another soviet satellite like Poland, and see how they developed in the same period:
In 1990 Poland (as a soviet/russian communist satellite) had an life expectancy of 71 years.
In 2012 the free Poland had a average life expectancy of 77 years.

WTF Dima, while your grate Putin - Russia has developed so much since the fall of Soviet (according to you), Russia has failed in increasing the life expectancy, other soviet- nations and satellite nation has not failed. Is Putin really that grate? Poland has increased the Life expect of 6 years, thus outpreformes Putins-Russia.

Oh, Lets look at another soviet “satellite” like Cuba, who still believe in communism, and see how they developed in the same period:

In 1990 Cuba had an life expectancy of 74 years.
In 2012 Cuba had a average life expectancy of 79 years.

WTF Dima, the grate Putin Russia is outperformed by the communist Castro Cuba.…

In 2013 Russia was ranked on place 124 of 194 countries in Life expectancy. Russia was outperformed by nations like: Moldavia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Morocco, Philippines, Fiji, Egypt, Algeria, Iran, Albania!!!, Lebanon!!!, Armenia, Georgia, Jordan, Sri Lanka, Syria, Vietnam, … etc etc,…. Russia was ranked 124…. Russia was outperformed by 3 rd world countries en masse. Grate Putin-Russia???

Do I need to go on?

The stats is clear, Putins Russia is shit. The development under his rule is outperformed by basically all nations on the planet.
Even though Putins-Russia has won the lottery ticket and found Gas, it still can’t get things going. Putin need to be replaced.

Last edited by AT_Stalky on Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

#37: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:19 pm
—
Stalk,

As you know I've never voted for Putin neither his pet party so....

Quote:

You think Russia has become better or something since Soviet era? You’re impressed by the performance of Russia under Putin?
So Russia now have 6 companies of the World top 500… And that’s impressive according to you? Of a nation of 150+ mil? Seriously?

Yes, we have never lived so good in Russia as we do now - that's a 146% truth.
No, that's not because of Putin but because of high natural resources prices, so no matter who would be a president it would be more or less the same.
Yes, I think it's good that after 23 years we already have 6 companies in the World top 100 as in 1991 Russia was deserted like after the big WAR with factories not working, salaries not paid and empty stocks in stores. And that's because the Soviet industry was not concentrated in the RFSR but split among all 15 Sovet republics and when they became independent most of the connections were lost or interrupted. So you can easily minus 8-10 years (to 1999-2001) and that's when you'll be able to see those companies (among Top 500) started to really work.

Quote:

I’m using WHO data of life expectancy in the year 1990 and 2012:
In 1990 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
Wow, the absolute difference in Russian life expectancy has not changed at all over a 22 year period from the soviet era in 1990, to Putins Russia in 2012. Is that grate performance according to you? ZERO increase, is that grate preformance???

When you go berserk you are unstoppable Wink

.
But what you failed to see is life expectance between these years. And if you check them, you will see that the Russian population was decreasing quite fast till like mid 2000s due to low life level and then started to go back to 1990 level and now we are ahead of it.

Quote:

The stats is clear, Putins Russia is shit. The development under his rule is outperformed by basically all nations on the planet.
Even though Putins-Russia has won the lottery ticket and found Gas, it still can’t get things going. Putin need to be replaced.

funny thing is that I travel at least 2 times a year in the USA and at least 2 times a month to the European contries and I can really compare. But can you? Wink

that doesn't mean I don't agree about Putin.

#38: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:29 pm
—
Na, Poland has even lower birth rates development from 1990 to 2012 than Russia. Latvia has even worse development in birth rates compared to Russia.. Cuba has almost the same birth rate developement as Russia. China has worse birth rate changes compared to Russia.. So, no you cant explain Putin Russias poor life expectancy with birth rate changes.
Indonesias figures LOL, would you whant there changes in birth rates to...? Even though, they faired so much better than russia in Life expectancy...
Here are the birth-rate figures for a sample of countries mentioned before, 1990 to 2012 figures..

Russian birth rates, Figure 1990 up to 2012:
1,9; 1,7; 1,6, 1,4; 1,4; 1,3; 1,3; 1,2; 1,2; 1,2; 1,2; 1,3; 1,3; 1,3; 1,3; 1,3; 1,3; 1,4; 1,4; 1,5; 1,5; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6

Compare to Latvia:
2,1; 2,0; 1,9; 1,7; 1,5; 1,4; 1,3; 1,2; 1,1; 1,1; 1,2; 1,2; 1,2; 1,3; 1,3: 1,3; 1,4; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5; 1,4; 1,3; 1,4; 1,3; 1,4; 1,4; 1,3

Compare to Poland:
2,1; 2,1; 2,1; 2,0; 1,9; 1,8; 1,6; 1,6; 1,5; 1,4; 1,4; 1,4; 1,3; 1,3; 1,2; 1,2; 1,2; 1,3; 1,3: 1,3

Compare to China:
2,6; 2,5: 2,3; 2,2; 2,5; 1,9; 1,7; 1,7; 1,6; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,7;1,7; 1,7

Compare to Cuba:
1,8; 1,8; 1,8; 1,7; 1,7; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,6; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5

Last edited by AT_Stalky on Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:11 pm; edited 4 times in total

#39: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:30 pm
—

Dima wrote (View Post):

When you go berserk you are unstoppable Wink

Im a viking remember.

#40: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:22 pm
—

Quote:

So, no you cant explain Putin Russias poor life expectancy with birth rate changes.

Maybe you should stop now and study subject?
http://www.rferl.org/content/life-expectancy-cis-report/24946030.html
Male life expectancy in Russia fell from 63 years in 1990 to 58 in 2000, and rose again to 62 years in 2009. Female life expectancy in Russia has remained fairly steady. It was 74 years in 1990, dipped to 72 in 2000, and rose back to 74 years in 2009.

#41: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:31 pm
—
We are to be impressed with Putin!

Thanx for that link Dima; its a must read: http://www.rferl.org/content/life-expectancy-cis-report/24946030.html

Let’s look at another subject, where Putin-Russia stands out.

Corruption!

Russia is ranked 35 in the world on corruption. That’s not bad is it?
Na, see, being No:1 is not the best, but the worst.
Being at the end of the list at rank 180 would be the best.

There Putin-Russia is at Rank 35, amongst Sierra Leone, and Timor…

Actually Pakistan is at rank 43 LOL, thus outperforms Russia… Bangladesh at rank 45, Uganda at 46, Nigeria at rank 47… Now there’s some countries that Putin Russia should have as role models. Laughing

And now Putin-Russia is to export its superior tec, culture and socio/economic models to its neighbours.

Link: http://www.ranker.com/list/the-most-corrupt-countries-in-the-world/info-lists?limit=100

#42: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:30 pm
—

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Hay Troger!

Troger wrote (View Post):

I'd disagree with you that Europe doesn't have to deal with Russia.

Hm, I actually said:

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

But we the Europeans, have to deal with both.

So I agree with you. We the European have to deal with BOTH the 30% of Americans that might just win the next election and the Russians.

Err, you're right! Reading comprehension fail on my part. Either way, I wasn't aiming my response directly at you. I just wish public outrage would be directed at the many business ties between many EU nations and Russia.

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Troger wrote (View Post):

Again, sorry, that "you" wasn't directed at you.

It seems we should take a page from the Swedish/Finnish approach. Russia doesn't deserve to be treated as a trusthworthy peer, especially not as long as comrade Putler is in office.

#43: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: jakebullet70, Location: Washington State / Kherson Ukraine

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:40 am
—

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Had to laugh at that one!!!

#44: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:24 am
—
Stalk,

Quote:

Let’s look at another subject, where Putin-Russia stands out.
Corruption!
Russia is ranked 35 in the world on corruption. That’s not bad is it?
Na, see, being No:1 is not the best, but the worst.
Being at the end of the list at rank 180 would be the best.
There Putin-Russia is at Rank 35, amongst Sierra Leone, and Timor…
Actually Pakistan is at rank 43 LOL, thus outperforms Russia… Bangladesh at rank 45, Uganda at 46, Nigeria at rank 47… Now there’s some countries that Putin Russia should have as role models.
And now Putin-Russia is to export its superior tec, culture and socio/economic models to its neighbours.
Link: http://www.ranker.com/list/the-most-corrupt-countries-in-the-world/info-lists?limit=100

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results
http://www.transparency.org/cpi2010/results
According to the Transparence International Corruption Perceptions Index Russia went from place 154 (out of 178) in 2010 to place 127 (out of 175) in 2013.
So it's obvious we are fighting the corruption here slowly Wink

While in same time f.e. Ukraine went from place 134 (out of 178) in 2010 to place 144 (out of 175) in 2013.

#45: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:47 am
—
Dima mate

Dima wrote (View Post):

Yes, I think it's good that after 23 years we already have 6 companies in the World top 100 as in 1991 Russia was deserted like after the big WAR with factories not working, salaries not paid and empty stocks in stores. .

Yes, if Russia would have 6 companies on the world top 100 [top one hundred] ranking after 23 years that would have been a bit impressing.

But, see, the list seems to suggest that Russia does not have a single company on the World Top 100 rank.
I said that Russia had 6 companies on the world top 500 [five hundred] list. The Russian companies on the world top 500 rank:

Rank; Company; type
106 Sper bank
316 Magnit
406 MTS
423 Beeline
457 VTB bank
470 mega

Or did I miss something?

However, let’s look at China and compare that old commy with supa-grate-Putin-Russia.

I don’t think anyone would seriously argue that china was a powerhouse in the 1980 th. At the same time Russia had an industry, and infrastructure (roads, tele, and electricity).
So, how has China faired and developed since then? We do not count company’s in natural resources as they are considered just “luck”.

China company’s on the world top 500 rank, year 2014 data:

Rank; Company; type
13 China Mobile
30 ICBC
51 China Construction Bank
58 China agriculture bank
61 Bank of china
66 China Unicom
75 China telecom
92 China Sinopec
95 China life Ins

Wow, China now has 9 company’s on the world top 100… But they have even more on the top 500:

125 Pingan
128 China state construct
135 Huawei
161 QQ
179 Bank of cmunications
206 Jardines
239 China …
251 CNOOC
261 Baidu
300 Chow Tai Fook
309 China Minsheng ..
319 3 Mobile
333 CPIC
...
..
..
...
..
..

Ohh, I stop at rank 333, its so many Chines comapnys on the World top 500 that I just get bored listing them, anyone who has the time may count them and report how many they are… ? LOL

http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2014

So how does Super-Power-Putin-Russia fair in an comparison with commy China… ?

#46: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:57 am
—

Dima wrote (View Post):

Stalk,

Quote:

While in same time f.e. Ukraine went from place 134 (out of 178) in 2010 to place 144 (out of 175) in 2013.

Whooohoooo

LOL, okay, the Corruption list you link to is turned up side down. Where beeing in No 1 is the best and being number 178 is the worst... (lets remember that)
http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results
http://www.transparency.org/cpi2010/results

So according to that list:
In 2010, Putin Russia was on Place 24 from the bottom... (178-154=24)
And in 2013 Supa Putin made a improvement to place 48 from the bottom…. (175-127=48)

In 2013 Russia had the same corruption level as Pakistan, Bangladesh, Mali, Lebanon, Gambia, and Nicaragua…

Well done Supa-Putin.

#47: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Gunsche,

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:37 am
—
How about getting back to MH17?
Get a room guys Wink

Can't see what the Unkrainian seps and Russians would gain by shooting down an civilian airliner. If they did it was most likely by misstake. Human or equipment error?

The Ukranian gov would actually benefit it the blame landed on the seps and the Russians. The world (west world) opinion of Russia is pretty low already with countries screaming about sanctions all the time already, putting more pressure on Russia would only do Kiev good.

Most likely we will never get to hear the true version of the incident...

#48: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:41 am
—
Sry.

#49: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:54 pm
—
So today the Ukranian National Security and Defence Speaker A.Lysenko said that Ukraine didn't blame Russia for shooting down MH17...

#50: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:40 am
—
Where did you hear/read that? Today Andriy Lysenko claimed that the two Ukrainian fighter jets that were downed yesterday were taken out by missiles fired by the Russian military in Russia.

I think people know that the Russia military wasn't the one that downed MH17. But it is Russia that equipped the Ukrainian nationals (who are ethnically Russian) with the weaponry (among many other things) used to down that plane.

#51: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: mooxe,

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:01 am
—
Yeah I Google'd what Dima said and couldn't find that anywhere.

I am happy Dima is here though telling us his thoughts on these matters. There's no other Russians to do this at CCS. I am finding it increasingly amusing though that ever since Crimea happened Dima has basically been towing the party line of, "Its not Russia." At first it was "there's no Russian troops in Crimea" to "there's no build of troops on the border" to "we had no role in MH17" ... I mean really... Is Russia just ignoring the civil war right on their doorstep, business as usual move along please?

Is Russia doing ANYTHING at all?

#52: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:47 am
—

Troger wrote (View Post):

Where did you hear/read that? Today Andriy Lysenko claimed that the two Ukrainian fighter jets that were downed yesterday were taken out by missiles fired by the Russian military in Russia.

http://fraza.ua/news/24.07.14/202111/my_ne_obvinyali_rossiyu_v_krushenii_boeing_a_lish_ozvuchili_odnu_iz_versiy_lysenko_.html
http://glagol.in.ua/2014/07/24/snbo-ukraina-ne-obvinyala-rf-v-krushenii-boeing/
http://ria.ru/world/20140724/1017367620.html

2 days ago when militia shot down 2 Su-25 ground attack planes Ukraine blamde Russia for firing rockets from it's own territory but yesterday Lysenko told they didn't on a same briefing:
http://telegraf.com.ua/ukraina/obshhestvo/1394039-snbo-ukraina-ne-obvinyala-rf-v-tom-chto-ona-sbivala-samoletyi-su-25.html

Quote:

I think people know that the Russia military wasn't the one that downed MH17. But it is Russia that equipped the Ukrainian nationals (who are ethnically Russian) with the weaponry (among many other things) used to down that plane

Russia refuses supplying Buk to militia, and the only prove Ukraine provided with Buk 312 (and this was used by the US as well) appeared to be frauded https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtAh0dKIUAAx4NN.jpg.

.

#53: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:11 am
—

mooxe wrote (View Post):

I am finding it increasingly amusing though that ever since Crimea happened Dima has basically been towing the party line of, "Its not Russia." At first it was "there's no Russian troops in Crimea" to "there's no build of troops on the border"

check my posts about Crimea, I was telling that officially that wasn't Russia but that was obviously it was.
there are still no satellite photos proving concetration of the Russian troops at the border..

Quote:

to "we had no role in MH17" ... I mean really... Is Russia just ignoring the civil war right on their doorstep, business as usual move along please?

I never posted that but told that I'd wait for the report of comission sent to investigate this case.

Quote:

Is Russia doing ANYTHING at all?

yes, I will tell you a story:
one of my employee (30 yo) beeing ethnical Ukranian from a village next to Slavyanks has a discussion in his family and decided that it could be wise to join militia there and when SEU would get independancy they could probably get some benefits like land or something.
so in late April he went there but the Russian border guards didn't let him pass the border as he was young and couldn't explain why he wanted to go there so he understood that there is no direct support of militia by Russia and it could be quite dangerous to go there throught fields and woods avoiding border crossing points and went back to Kaliningrad.

and militia keeps blaming Russia for not supplying new ATGMs as the ones they use from the Ukranian stocks are mainly "rotten" and like half of them don't explode so they don't have adequate AT weapons.

On July 22nd Russia sent back to Ukraine (by the Ukranian army transport plane) 18 Ukranian wounded soldiers who were treated in the Russian hospital and a body of dead soldier who died of severe wounds. They were pushed to the Russian territory on July 16th during combat with militia.

#54: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:15 am
—
Ohh, today several Russian media resources started to post a leak from the Ukranian defence forces that the Ukranians shot down MH17 accidentally while checking the Buk systems after redeployment.
Let's see how it goes though - could be another fake...

#55: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: zwizdan007,

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:39 pm
—
Here is my post from 20th July. I am still confident that investigation will prove this.

zwizdan007 wrote (View Post):

Possibility that MH was shot down by AA missile should also be taken into consideration.

My personal opinion, after collecting info from different sources, is that goverment forces shot down MH17.

#56: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:56 pm
—

zwizdan007 wrote (View Post):

Here is my post from 20th July. I am still confident that investigation will prove this.

zwizdan007 wrote (View Post):

Possibility that MH was shot down by AA missile should also be taken into consideration.
My personal opinion, after collecting info from different sources, is that goverment forces shot down MH17.

yes, some parts show a nature of damage usually inflicted by A-A missles which have core-type fragments while S-A missiles have ball-type fragments and powerfull shock wave.
but a problem is that there are round holes in some parts as well...

#57: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:14 pm
—

mooxe wrote (View Post):

Yeah I Google'd what Dima said and couldn't find that anywhere.

I am happy Dima is here though telling us his thoughts on these matters. There's no other Russians to do this at CCS. I am finding it increasingly amusing though that ever since Crimea happened Dima has basically been towing the party line of, "Its not Russia." At first it was "there's no Russian troops in Crimea" to "there's no build of troops on the border" to "we had no role in MH17" ... I mean really... Is Russia just ignoring the civil war right on their doorstep, business as usual move along please?

Is Russia doing ANYTHING at all?

I thought this opinion piece in the Washington Post was interesting. It's a rather simplified, US-centric opinion, but it makes some sense based on what we've read in this thread:
It’s not just about the Malaysian flight. Russians are living in an alternate reality.

#58: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:46 pm
—
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 photo.

Wikipedia MH 17 Info

Wikipedia

"MH17 is the deadliest airliner shootdown in history.[20]"

Boeing_777-2H6ER_9M-MRD_Malaysian_(6658105143).jpg

Description:

Filesize:

141.63 KB

Viewed:

335 Time(s)

#59: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:52 pm
—

Cathartes wrote (View Post):

I actually tend to agree to that.
today I had a big argument with my employees explaining them why can't we just invade and occupy Ukraine. Had a hard time explaining them that when you have an economics like Russia and all the foreign payments go through New York you should sit on your ass and breath calm even if you have enough nukes to kill the World.
And I agree that most of the Russian population is really living in the alternate reality.

But that doesn't prove anything about MH17....

#60: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:16 pm
—
Dima old mate

Dima wrote (View Post):

Cathartes wrote (View Post):

I made a seperate thread to cover whats going on in Russia, to keep this thread cleaner:
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10610

#61: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:18 am
—

Dima wrote (View Post):

And I agree that most of the Russian population is really living in the alternate reality.

But yet you still hand out the explanations for MH17 that come from your government, and of course excuse Russia from wrongdoing in every conversation? I guess the alternate reality you are referring to is in regards to other aspects such as domestic politics, and not about Russia's history and it's role in world events--the Russian populace seem to form a united front on those issues.

By the way, I think you should reconsider the hiring of your "ethnic Ukrainian" employee, he sounds like an opportunist with identity problems (ready to kill other Ukrainians so he can get land?). Story sounds like bullshit (like the other ones), but if it's true, tell him that 15-year minimum prison sentences (or worse) await traitors like him.

Cathartes wrote (View Post):

More on the the topic of Russian "news" regarding MH17: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-m-f-platt/russian-media-on-malaysia_b_5603733.html

#62: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:45 am
—

Quote:

But yet you still hand out the explanations for MH17 that come from your government, and of course excuse Russia from wrongdoing in every conversation?

do I? what I said that I'd wait for investigation before blaming anyone.
looking at it from a different angle - you are the guy believing in no-proves statements by your goverment although they have already lied to you openly a couple of times to start wars. That's the first time Russia started to react on the White House briefings and all they can provide are photos from social media pages and their believes. Man, CIA has more budged than Russian Army and they can't provide any prove?!

Quote:

I guess the alternate reality you are referring to is in regards to other aspects such as domestic politics, and not about Russia's history and it's role in world events--the Russian populace seem to form a united front on those issues.

no, the Russian population is divided on the history of XX century for sure.

Quote:

By the way, I think you should reconsider the hiring of your "ethnic Ukrainian" employee, he sounds like an opportunist with identity problems (ready to kill other Ukrainians so he can get land?). Story sounds like bullshit (like the other ones), but if it's true, tell him that 15-year minimum prison sentences (or worse) await traitors like him.

I told a story it's up to you to believe it or not.

#63: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:43 am
—

Dima wrote (View Post):

Quote:

But yet you still hand out the explanations for MH17 that come from your government, and of course excuse Russia from wrongdoing in every conversation?

We will never have 100% proof Dima. U.S. intelligence is not fool-proof, that's for sure, but I think there is enough circumstantial evidence in this case--and for what it's worth, U.S. intelligence has confirmed who is at fault.

No one is blaming Russian military for downing it, as Obama said, Russia is being blamed for "creating the conditions" that led to this.

Dima wrote (View Post):

Quote:

I told a story it's up to you to believe it or not.

I hope it's not true.

#64: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:59 am
—

Troger wrote (View Post):

Dima wrote (View Post):

Quote:

But yet you still hand out the explanations for MH17 that come from your government, and of course excuse Russia from wrongdoing in every conversation?

We will never have 100% proof Dima. U.S. intelligence is not fool-proof, that's for sure, but I think there is enough circumstantial evidence in this case--and for what it's worth, U.S. intelligence has confirmed who is at fault.
No one is blaming Russian military for downing it, as Obama said, Russia is being blamed for "creating the conditions" that led to this.

Ok, it's obvious that Ukraine created the conditions by breaking the cease fire in late June. Sounds good?

Quote:

Dima wrote (View Post):

Quote:

I told a story it's up to you to believe it or not.

I hope it's not true.

[/quote]
you can do whatever.

#65: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:10 am
—

Dima wrote (View Post):

Ok, it's obvious that Ukraine created the conditions by breaking the cease fire in late June. Sounds good?

The rebels never agreed to a cease fire and so they never honored it. The Ukrainian military units that tried to abide by it ended up suffering because of it. There really wasn't a cease fire to break.

Point is, these rebels wouldn't be anywhere if it weren't for support from Russia, they would have been mopped up a month ago.

#66: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: dj,

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:47 pm
—
CNN showed story today of Ukrainian family that flew in all the way from Australia to try to search for their missing daughter. They made it to the crash site, laid flowers...and still are attempting to find her remains. The Rebel commanders are getting annoyed with all the international presence and media. This could get ugly...as pressure mounts to do an international forensic investigation.

#67: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Captain-Insano,

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:24 pm
—
This is a real interesting exchange between AP reporter Matt Lee and State Department spokesperson Marie Harf http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok Cudos to Matt for breaking the dont ask dont tell policy between our media and government. Also here is a great article by Paul Craig Roberts http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/26/world-doomed-western-insouciance-paul-craig-roberts/

#68: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: dj,

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:01 pm
—
Dick Cheney and his henchman Wolfowitz are pieces of shit and pathological liars. Here we go again with the comparisons between U.S. aggression in Iraq and Russian aggression in Ukraine. It's not a valid analogy. Those trolls are long gone...although they are desperate to drum up consensus for more wars, re-invade Iraq, invade Ukraine, their power is isolated to the right-wing media bubble controlled by Murdoch.

The current U.S. policy is that of risk aversion, and de-escalation of wars. America is dangerously close to bankruptcy and still nowhere even close to paying off the Debt from Iraq and Afganistan (which are not even resolved yet anyways).

The only "teeth" in this so called aggression towards Russia are sanctions. And in reality it is up the EU to impose serious sanctions. America is not that much of an essential trading partner with Russia in comparison to the EU.

#69: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:58 am
—

dj wrote (View Post):

Dick Cheney and his henchman Wolfowitz are pieces of shit and pathological liars. Here we go again with the comparisons between U.S. aggression in Iraq and Russian aggression in Ukraine. It's not a valid analogy. Those trolls are long gone...although they are desperate to drum up consensus for more wars, re-invade Iraq, invade Ukraine, their power is isolated to the right-wing media bubble controlled by Murdoch.

The current U.S. policy is that of risk aversion, and de-escalation of wars. America is dangerously close to bankruptcy and still nowhere even close to paying off the Debt from Iraq and Afganistan (which are not even resolved yet anyways).

The only "teeth" in this so called aggression towards Russia are sanctions. And in reality it is up the EU to impose serious sanctions. America is not that much of an essential trading partner with Russia in comparison to the EU.

Yup!

#70: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:06 am
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dj wrote (View Post):

I agree DJ.
We have to thank a diversified and free media for that. No?
There are no free media in Russia to do the same there.

There is also a profound difference between the USA wars and the Russian wars.
Russia invades Afghan, why, for making it a Soviet satellite = empire buliding.
USA invades Afghan, why, for Taliban dint hand over bin ladin. US have no intention of making Afghan its 51 st state.
Russia invades Crimea, why, to make it a part of the Russian empire = empire buliding.
USA invaded Iraq, why, … for whatever stupid reasons it was not to make it into the n’th state of USA..
Russia in Ukraine = empire buliding.
Etc etc..

Abaut sanctions. Look at the result of US sanctions vs Japan and the road to PH.
What will be the result of serious sanctions vs russia?

#71: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Captain-Insano,

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:29 pm
—

Quote:

the current U.S. policy is that of risk aversion, and de-escalation of wars

i disagree the policy seems to be regime change done clandestinely by using local forces funded by US government. This is a tactic thats been used repeatedly in the post ww2 era such as how they trained, armed, funded the contras rebels, libyan rebel forces and now the right sector and svoboda in the ukraine. it's not much different than how they funded/armed the afghans against the soviets and the northern alliance against the taliban just way more secret. Here is a link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-RyOaFwcEw to a compilation video of us involvement in ukraine. they do a great job of sourcing their information. it's an hour long but worth the watch, i myself don't agree with everything in it but it's super informative, i had never even heard of svoboda or right sector until i watched it. i thought the highlights were the first 10 minutes by SCG and the ron paul interview on fox business as well as the denis kucinich interview on fox. also worth noting is a lot of reports by rt which is funded by the russian government, i'm not saying i disagree with whats being reported just that it needs to noted.

#72: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:32 pm
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So where are proves that Putin has shot down a plane?
I recall they told us it will take 2 days...

#73: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: dj,

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:43 pm
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Nobody is saying it was regular Russian forces that shot down the plane. The separatists maybe had advisors sent from Russia or possibly AA equipment supplied by Russia. Everything has gone quiet now on BOTH Malaysian airline tragedies. Still trying to find out what happened to the first jet that may or may not have crashed into Indian ocean.

#74: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:52 am
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dj wrote (View Post):

Nobody is saying it was regular Russian forces that shot down the plane. The separatists maybe had advisors sent from Russia or possibly AA equipment supplied by Russia. Everything has gone quiet now on BOTH Malaysian airline tragedies. Still trying to find out what happened to the first jet that may or may not have crashed into Indian ocean.

June-July 2014

Is Putin's Non-Denial An Admission That Russia Shot Down MH17?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/07/30/is-putins-non-denial-an-admission-that-russia-shot-down-mh17/

Miscalculation. Failure. Escalation - Why Putin Shot Down MH-17
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2014/07/26/why-putin-shot-down-mh-17/

Cameron tells Putin shooting down of MH17 was 'unacceptable'
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/cameron-putin-shooting-down-malaysia-airlines-mh17-unacceptable

August 2014

Contrary to the Obama administration’s public claims blaming eastern Ukrainian rebels and Russia for the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, some U.S. intelligence analysts have concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame, according to a source briefed on these findings.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/flight-mh17-shoot-down-scenario-shifts/5394746

Why have the media and Obama administration gone silent on MH17?
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08/18/ukmh-a18.html

#75: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: dj,

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:08 pm
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Those are Partisan activist sources. Forbes is primarily slanted right-wing organization serving Country-Club elitist Partisans that only care about how to make $. WSWS is Socialist activist organization that wants to slam Obama & destroy the party to promote the rise of Socialism.

Any serious journalist would recognize that there isn't sufficient evidence yet to point fingers. The forensic examination of the flight recorder takes a long time...and still will not prove whom fired the AA missile(s).

#76: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:34 pm
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dj wrote (View Post):

Those are Partisan activist sources. Forbes is primarily slanted right-wing organization serving Country-Club elitist Partisans that only care about how to make $. WSWS is Socialist activist organization that wants to slam Obama & destroy the party to promote the rise of Socialism.
Any serious journalist would recognize that there isn't sufficient evidence yet to point fingers. The forensic examination of the flight recorder takes a long time...and still will not prove whom fired the AA missile(s).

yeah sure, made a quick google search:

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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