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Close Combat Series -> The Mess

#1: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Bungarra, Location: Murchison region, West Australia

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:04 am
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Sort of like Deja vue with the worst possible ending

Is this the wake up call Russia needed to pull in these terrorists or will Putin play the high & mighty

Whatever the outcome 298 people lost their lives from across the spectrum of the international community.

I personally think this is the rebels last hurrah because someones going to do something about it & it won't be pretty.

Whatever credibility these people had is dashed.

My sympathy's to the families.

#2: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: dj,

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:05 am
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Malasian Airlines can not catch a break. Why out of all the possible Airline Companies on the planet did it have to be another Malaysian Airlines flight? The worst possible luck for them. Everyone is STILL wondering what happened to the first flight that crashed, who knows where in the Ocean. Then this happened?

It was definitely the heavily armed Russian-backed separatists. Also dumb for the international community to allow civilian international flight path over active war zone. Russia had advisors helping them, as high altitude SA missile launch equipment is too complicated for the Separatists to understand how to use themselves. This was big mistake, either if accident or if they attacked civilian flight on purpose.
It makes the Ukrainian Separatist and their Russian advisors look like gangsters. Now Europe has to get serious with reprisals or sanctions if something is really going to happen. US is still busy in Iraq, Afganistan, can't risk nuclear war with Russia, not worth it. I knew Putin would make mistake like this, and he knows he messed up.

#3: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:59 pm
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Yeah major faux pas.

If this was false flag I don't know, we the bottom plebs will never know what goes on at the top levels, it is all speculation. I don't like conspiracies but isn't it strange that out of dozens of airlines it happens to Malaysia airlines AGAIN? not implying anything just that sometimes real life is weird like that.

What will happen now? is Europe or even America strong enough to intervene in eastern Ukraine at risk of full blown war vs the russians? or will they just fund the Western Ukrainian govt. to fight proxy war like the good old days? will Russia follow? They can't have the west right there on their backyard.

#4: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:34 pm
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That's a major fuck up and I'd wait for a report from the comission sent there for investigation to make any blames.
Too much lie and disinformation is coming from all sides.

I recall once everyone was blaming the RF for invading one small country in August 2008...

doubt any real war can happen but a new round of sanctions supported by the EU could be very painfull for the RF for sure.

#5: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:07 pm
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When I first heard about what happened I immediately thought of Russian supplied arms to the rebels.

#6: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:51 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

When I first heard about what happened I immediately thought of Russian supplied arms to the rebels.

and the first thought I had - fuck that's a prince Ferdinand circa 2014 Sad

#7: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:43 am
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Ahh, yes, i've just recalled something called Iraqi WMD announced by the president of the USA one day.

Let's see how it goes though....

#8: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: mooxe,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:29 am
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Not sure where you are going with both statements.

#9: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:21 am
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At a June 30 Pentagon news conference, NATO Supreme Commander Gen. Philip Breedlove said Russia had been providing air defense training to Russian separatists on its side of the border with Ukraine that focused on “vehicle-borne” surface-to-air missiles.

ABC News Story and photo

#10: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: vobbnobb,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:35 am
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Those massive long range mobile SAMs are old, SA-11 etc and have been in and around that region for 20+ years since fall of Soviet Union. Anyone could have had the training they are not new, if that's what brought it down and not something inside the plane.

#11: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:48 am
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US_Brake wrote (View Post):

At a June 30 Pentagon news conference, NATO Supreme Commander Gen. Philip Breedlove said Russia had been providing air defense training to Russian separatists on its side of the border with Ukraine that focused on “vehicle-borne” surface-to-air missiles.
ABC News Story and photo

yeah and they also see thousands of Russian troops next to the Ukranian border - but looks like they are so close to nature ((C) Melentin) and so camouflaged so they couldn't be seen from satelites...hence no photos of them.
but yeah, who cares about proves when there are believes...

Quote:

Those massive long range mobile SAMs are old, SA-11 etc and have been in and around that region for 20+ years since fall of Soviet Union. Anyone could have had the training they are not new, if that's what brought it down and not something inside the plane.

yeah, for many it could sound unbelivable but such systems are operated by conscripts during their 1-2 year service here.
so there are thousands of ex-conscripts that know how.

#12: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:51 am
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Not sure where you are going with both statements.

fast judgements, long consequences.

guess that's why Russia is crying for the comission to investigate while they are sitting in Kiev...

#13: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:10 am
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Just a reminder:

1988 - US Cruiser Vincennes has shot down the Iranian A-300 with 290 people on board - US president G.Bush said he will not excuse for that. In 1996 the US agreed to pay compensation for the relatives.
2001 - Russian Tu-154 with 88 people on board was shot down by Ukraine during AA trainings - Ukranian president has never excused or confirmed that but in 2004 agreed to pay compensations to the relatives.

#14: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: sample,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:17 am
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dj wrote (View Post):

It was definitely the heavily armed Russian-backed separatists.

Until an independent investigation is taken upon, i wouldn't be so sure in blaming one side or another: all those "hard" evidences involving the presence of WMD in Iraq presented by US administration in the run-up for 2003 invasion, not to mention the Nayirah testimony (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_%28testimony%29) in the first Gulf war, or the use of chemical weapons in Syria in 2013 against civilians when Barack Obama heavily pushed for strikes against Bashar Hafez al-Assad regime based on shallow evidences (a UN investigation concluded that the rockets came most likely from rebel held areas). In all cases the corporate media pushed for war and helped the "win" the public support, or at least to tone down the opponents.
For me it's a clear pattern and i could no longer believe right from the start any official version until backed by an independent investigation.

regards,
m

#15: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: zwizdan007,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:27 am
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Possibility that MH was shot down by AA missile should also be taken into consideration.

My personal opinion, after collecting info from different sources, is that goverment forces shot down MH17.

#16: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:09 pm
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Just a reminder:

April 20, 1978: Korean Air flight 902 reportedly fired on by Soviet jets after it reportedly veered off course near Murmansk, made emergency landing, two passengers killed.

Sept. 1, 1983: Korean Air Boeing 747 shot down by Soviet jets near Sakhalin Island, 269 passengers massacred.

#17: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:05 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

How is this being spun in Russia news...
1. NATO secret operation shoots down civilian aircraft to frame Russia.
2. Rebels captured Ukrainian anti-aircraft hardware and used it to take down a civilian aircraft by accident.
3. Ukrainian regular forces shoot down civilian aircraft.
...and finally the least likely story run in Russian but the most plausible...
4. Russian lent equipment to rebels used to down civilian aircraft.

that's of course not correct...
the main versions basing on damage character are (https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/72157645790319631/):
1. Air-to-Air missile (http://aviaforum.ru/showpost.php?p=1578720&postcount=899; http://politikus.ru/events/24720-strasti-po-boingu-pervye-priznaki-rakety-vozduh-vozduh-sbival-ne-buk-m1.html).
2. Bomb aboard.
3. Ukraine's Buk's very old missile as new missiles do different type of damage.

Some guys have spoted another lie from Ukraine showing their own Buk on trailer (#312) as supplied by Russia. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtAh0dKIUAAx4NN.jpg
The first radio intercept released by Ukraine on July 17th (with date of July 16th btw) appeared to be fraud as well.

And some unofficial info from USA Smile

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

Last edited by Dima on Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

#18: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:11 pm
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The US administration and most US media is pushing this story.

A SAM fired from inside Ukrainian Separatist controlled territory near the border with Russia hit and destroyed MH17. The SAM was fired from a Buk. The assumption is that SAM operators mistook the MH17 for a Ukraine Nationalist Aircraft.

What spin has been put on the story?

Democrats- Putin is to blame

Republicans- Obama is to blame

#19: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: sample,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:33 pm
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apparently, the former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry, who had a key role in covering the Iran-Contra scandal for the Associated Press and Newsweek, has a different story:

"What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.
The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said."

the whole article is here: http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

regards,
m

#20: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17 Author: dj,

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:30 pm
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sample wrote (View Post):

dj wrote (View Post):

It was definitely the heavily armed Russian-backed separatists.

Yes I get it...when you see the history of lies from previous U.S. President. At least the when we shot down the Iranian aircraft, we acknowledged it was a terrible mistake, there was no lie or cover-up. America does lack some credibility about telling Russia what to do within their own region. But America does not lack credibility when making statements about evidence on the MH17 situation. We definitely have intelligence resources monitoring the situation and there would be no incentive to fabricate facts.

Track record already pre-existed where Ukrainian military jet was just shot down before MH17. Plus how many times have we seen similar reports where Ukrainian helicopters or fixed wing aircraft have been blasted out of the sky...too many to count. By default the separatists within the Ukrainian national boundaries, would not even have any of their own aircraft in the first place. Unless they have a tiny number of Russian-supplied craft...but then Russia would be legally liable for act of war and serving as aggressor in invading Ukraine.

I do not think Russia and their comrade separatists intentionally tried to shoot down civilian international flight. Russia might be acting like Fascist Imperial power right now...but they are not Jihadi Gangsters that kill women and children on purpose.

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