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Close Combat Series -> Kharkov

#1: Working on an update and need hints Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:42 pm
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Hi to all,

I’m working on a small update to improve the mod. I have taken in consideration the two major critics I have read: “too much rocket launchers” in the mod, and AT weapons effectiveness. Of course, in these months I have also corrected some other minor things (I will not speak about them now).

About “too much rocket launchers”: My personal vision is that this battle is really big and the mod is not focused on a minor part of it, so my goal was to give to the player “the feeling” to be inside “the chaos and destruction” typical of the big battles. Anyway the power of this kind of weapons it’s really high so I have reduced the number of them in all Battlegroups that had them. This work has finished.

The AT weapons effectiveness: After many battles and comparison to other mods I have concluded that they are well implemented with the exception of russian RPG-40 grenade and german Tellermine 35. The teams that have them they seem not use them (never!) and this is of course a problem.
I ask to the modders: if you have will/time, take a look to these two weapons in my mod weapons.txt file: if you have hints/advices about how to set them in order to let the soldiers use them, let me know (or maybe the problem is in the soldiers.txt file; anyway I have checked both files many times and I don’t understand why soldiers never use them). If someone can help, thanks in advance.

Drizzt

#2: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:44 pm
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Quote:

After many battles and comparison to other mods I have concluded that they are well implemented with the exception of russian RPG-40 grenade and german Tellermine 35. The teams that have them they seem not use them (never!) and this is of course a problem

Hi Drizzt. Lack of usage of hand held AT weapons was the only real drawback. I really wish had spent more time long ago tinkering with weapons files so could help you out with this, but have only recently, within the last 2 months started tinkering with Pzrjager's SOC mod data files for CC5 and the older games have easier tools (to me it seems) to work with.

Rifle grenades (Grenatebusche39g/k and Scheissbucher) that I just looked over in the data files and see are included would be a tremendous help.. IF the Infantry would use them when they are.. Say set and in a defensive position. I cannot say how many times have had a Grenatebusche39 fire off rounds at Russian armor in the 3 stalingrad mods have been tinkering around with the weapons/vehicles, fpools etc in the last month or so to customize them and improve them for at least my own enjoyment.

Maybe take a look at what pzrjager has for his cc5 settings and start from there with the tinkering on those propelled weapons? I'll start(restart for the 4-5th time lol) your excellent mod and be more than glad to play test any modifications you want o try, even tweak some of the things have done with SOC and DK along the way if want.

Edit:

Gave a closer look at Grenatbusche 39(g) and am wondering if doing away with AP will help any? Heat rounds only? I noticed it "seems" you increased base accuracy on AP.. It's been awhile since played the mod.. I don't remember the tell-tale mini explosion of a round going off from those weapons when a tank was nearby.. Pzrjager did a marvelous job of getting those weapons involved in his 3 mods.

#3: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:42 am
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I Jhonsilver, thanks for your hints.

In past, I have discussed/checked Granatbusche ammo type during my mod timeline and it should be correct as it is now (yes, less effective than in Stalingrad timeline). This is what I remember about old discussions.
Anyway the problem now are rpg-40 grenade and tellermine: I have set them like in Stalingrad mod (not Der kessel), but, as I have said, it seems that soldiers never use them.
To be more clear: I can easily “rig” these weapons, but I don’t want to create “super - weapons”: if possible, I prefer to find a way that let the soldiers use them. If this will result impossible, then I will take in consideration the possibility to rig them a bit. Of course, there is also the possibility that soldiers don’t use them because they “automatically” considered them too weak (not sure if this thing is plausible, but it can be).
About Der kessel: I have played it during last moths and I don’t have seen rpg or mines used: I don’t want to say that they are never used, just I don’t have seen them in action: Der Kessel has various anti-tank weapons at middle-long range.. there are more chances to see them than close range anti-tank weapons.
For now I prefer to wait some hints, than I will decide. For sure I will do something, even if I will not receive suggestions.

Drizzt

#4: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: salhexe,

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:28 am
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Honestly I do not find a lot to improve.

After the block with the inability to move forward in the GC in the previous version, I started the GC in this new version. for the moment without problems, playing as the Soviet.

The best Ai of all time. Very Happy

#5: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:25 pm
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Was looking around for sites regarding German small AT weapons and found this interesting site. Maybe it will be interesting to someone else?

AT weapons and Grenades

#6: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:49 am
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to Salhexe: you are too good in your judgement about the mod, thanks. German pzjaeger minen team and russian Granatometchiki team for now they act like "2nd line infantry". This must be corrected.

to Jhonsilver: interesting site. I will take a better look in the next days (I have already corrected greneade bundle name). I have also a pair of ideas.. just hypothesis: I will verify them in the next weeks.

Drizzt

#7: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:41 pm
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Have you noticed Axis guns will refuse to fire HT rounds on some occasions at Russian armor after AP has been expended? Mainly happens with 7.5PAK, but have noticed that the 10.5 will on many occasions refuse to fire HT rounds after exhausting it's HE shell supply.

I noticed the 5cm has a loadout of 40AP and the Pak 40 just 15, then 15 more HT rounds. Wasn't the heat rounds for the short barrel L/24 gun anyway? Is my memory wrong? I propose upping the AP (solid) shot rounds up to the 30-35 range and dropping altogether HT rounds from the PAK 40 7.5cm.

#8: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:51 pm
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Hi Jhonsilver,

About pak40, I'm sure to have speak with Dima about it in past: it seems that during my mod timeline there was lack of AP ammo and the gun itself it was "new" to the front. So, I will not modify it.

about HT rounds: refuse to fire due a black target? In this case it's normal. If not, I will take a look to it (please confirm me that you don't speak about black targets, thanks).

Drizzt

#9: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: Schmal_Turm,

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:20 am
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Drizzt, this is one of my favorite mods which I am currently playing. I noticed that it seems to take the German indirect fire forever to line up the shots. There is the constant notice that the gun is in the "wrong facing." I have also noticed that some of the AT and tank guns will show a "0" for the number of shots remaining after a few rounds and then the number will generally reappear, although some times they will turn to 0 again.

Great work though. Have made it more challenging against the AI by doing a large scale withdrawal back to Kharkov before retaking the territory. Some of the maps are really hard to take back after that. Some I am content to just do a long delaying action with attrition being my main goal.

#10: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:05 am
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Hi Schmal_Turm,

Glad you like the mod.

You can find the “wrong facing issue” in the readme file, with the small advice to turn the gun manually before to fire when this thing happens (use blue or green bar). I don’t know the why: some things we do with data can be not fully supported for how the exe is coded (in this case it’s not a fault of the coder), probably like heavy guns with indirect fire as mortars (I have set them in this way because I like this idea). Another “trick” about these heavy guns it’s that I have used also another ammo type with direct fire (I wanted both: I know, it’s not historically corrected but the gameplay don’t let us have both kind of fire for the same ammo). Maybe the problems JhonSilver speaks are related to this aspect.
Anyway, to be honest, I have used them deeply and with excellent results in my campaigns.

About the 0… you mean also they don’t fire? Never happened to me (I mean: they fire in a normal way). Maybe soldiers try to change ammo type, or they recharge, and/or they are scared, or maybe it’s a code issue (anyway without real consequences).

Drizzt

#11: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:22 am
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Quote:

There is the constant notice that the gun is in the "wrong facing."

I get this mainly with the 12cm mortars, but have found that can avoid it for the most part by avoiding placing them anywhere near trees, shrubs.. Any kind of obstacles. They also do better once they get "Experienced" or better.

#12: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: Schmal_Turm,

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:14 am
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Drizzt, I will try the suggestions that were recommended by johnsilver and you.

I forgot to mention on improvements, I would like to be able to use the artillery on any map.

#13: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: Dima,

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:35 am
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Quote:

I noticed the 5cm has a loadout of 40AP and the Pak 40 just 15, then 15 more HT rounds. Wasn't the heat rounds for the short barrel L/24 gun anyway? Is my memory wrong? I propose upping the AP (solid) shot rounds up to the 30-35 range and dropping altogether HT rounds from the PAK 40 7.5cm.

15 AP for pak40 is actually too high number as there were only 81 Pak40 delivered to units by May 1942 Smile

.
and yes, 7.5cm HEAT had a hard time to penetrate T-34 with frontal hits no matter of distance.

#14: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:12 am
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to Johnsilver: exactly, it's the same as heavy guns. Heavy mortars are present in the vehicles.txt and they have their own graphic. So they have the same problem.

to Dima: In the mod there are less than 70 pak40 (anyway sure too much for only this part of the front). Without your help in past they would have been something like 200: in the first version of the mod it was the "standard" gun in Bgs. Thanks to you many things have been corrected before the release.
You have some suggestions about where to place russian and german artillery in the mod? My choice was a "balance choice", nothing of historical for sure.

Drizzt

#15: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:37 pm
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Drizzt wrote (View Post):

to Johnsilver: exactly, it's the same as heavy guns. Heavy mortars are present in the vehicles.txt and they have their own graphic. So they have the same problem.

to Dima: In the mod there are less than 70 pak40 (anyway sure too much for only this part of the front). Without your help in past they would have been something like 200: in the first version of the mod it was the "standard" gun in Bgs. Thanks to you many things have been corrected before the release.
You have some suggestions about where to place russian and german artillery in the mod? My choice was a "balance choice", nothing of historical for sure.

Drizzt

The negative with regards to H/mortars being treated as guns, is that they are easily knocked out, though remember from earlier topic(s) the positives and why you included them this way. It's a positive trade off. Difficulties come in for players, like Scmal_Turm, myself and probably others in figuring out how/where to deploy them to avoid the constant "wrong facing" issue. It isn't a bad thing in the long run anyway as powerful as they are to only fire 3-4 rounds in a row, then "wrong facing" come up and have to click "defend", get them back into position and repeat the entire process again until the player figures out how to properly deploy them.

As a question Drizzt. If going to go what weapons sides had.. In Stalingrad conversion from Manoi's original CC5.. Are you getting rid of those squeeze bore 7.5cm PaK41 guns? Or at least cutting way down the number that were in that mod? As remember, they were in many of the battlegroups and Germany only built a bit over 100 total. Nothing towards Manoi, always wondered why so many were included in that mod and don't remember ever seeing them in any other (ex. CC3).

#16: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: Dima,

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:23 pm
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Quote:

As a question Drizzt. If going to go what weapons sides had.. In Stalingrad conversion from Manoi's original CC5.. Are you getting rid of those squeeze bore 7.5cm PaK41 guns? Or at least cutting way down the number that were in that mod? As remember, they were in many of the battlegroups and Germany only built a bit over 100 total. Nothing towards Manoi, always wondered why so many were included in that mod and don't remember ever seeing them in any other (ex. CC3)

.
that's because most of produced pak41 went to the AGS and wanted to add them in mod for diversity as had no information regarding guns allocation for the German units in 6A.
But now I know Smile

#17: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: Drizzt,

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:12 pm
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to Johnsilver: I agree with your observations about heavy mortars. About pak41 I have counted 18 of them in 5 battlegroups: not so many after all. Or maybe you speak about sPzB41?

Drizzt

#18: Re: Working on an update and need hints Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:11 am
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Drizzt wrote (View Post):

to Johnsilver: I agree with your observations about heavy mortars. About pak41 I have counted 18 of them in 5 battlegroups: not so many after all. Or maybe you speak about sPzB41?

Drizzt

No, Pak41's were what meant. Haven't played Manoi's Stalingrad for some time and incorrectly remembered it seems that it had more of those weapons it seems, though if that amount (1 Cool

is spread out amongst 5 BG, that would seem and is a fairly significant number.

It's no big deal Drizzt, just remember when 1st played the mod how shocked was to see it at all in the force pool(s) of various BG's.

The squeeze bore 2.8cm's the Germans used until they ran out of already manufactured tungsten shells. Sometime during late '43- early '44 as remember.

The mod(s) to me, don't have to be 100% factual.. Make 'em fun is great. I like Nomada's 1946 mod and his latest GTC for example that are nowhere near factual. You don't have to follow any strict sense of who/what unit/weapon was there.

Close Combat Series -> Kharkov

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