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#1: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 12:05 pm
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Article on the the raping in Berlin in 1945.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32529679

Gives some details on where Beevor got his information. Also mention medicals records of the time, specifically the amount of abortions.

#2: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 3:20 pm
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great article Mooxe

#3: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 1:09 am
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Why didn't those stupid Russians kill all the raped German women if they were doing so bad (the soldiers)? :)

Fury-movie shows that good - "Any of them will fuck with you for a chocolate".

#4: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 3:57 pm
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The Germans admitted the holocaust and most atrocities committed during the war. The US admitted the good and evil side of dropping the 'bombs" on both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Even the British have sort of apologized for the fire bombing of Dresden.

Yet I see you here constantly making excuses for the Russians in a war in which they helped start? Patriotism goes just too far sometimes Dima.

#5: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:58 pm
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

The Germans admitted the holocaust and most atrocities committed during the war. The US admitted the good and evil side of dropping the 'bombs" on both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Even the British have sort of apologized for the fire bombing of Dresden.

Yet I see you here constantly making excuses for the Russians in a war in which they helped start? Patriotism goes just too far sometimes Dima.

hoho, me personally doesn't care if the RA soldiers fucked those 2mlns or not. I believe they deserved that.

Anyway I would like to see some proves as by now there are evidences like she told my friend who told my friend who told another friend and blah blah.

#6: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: mooxe,

Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 2:42 am
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Dima wrote (View Post):

Nobody deserves to be raped Dima, not you, your wife, your children, not anyone.

#7: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 3:21 pm
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Rape during the occupation of Germany
From Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

#8: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:03 pm
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Alot of women did alot of things that they would rather explain away as rape to get food and other essentials. Especially once they are pregnant with someone else's child. Rape certainly did happen but I do doubt those figures. Many misleading stories were circulated after the war to make opposition look bad - Berlin Airlift. That was a western scare mongering tactic - USSR offered free coal and food only to civilians and not Allied forces. That was partly due to the US refusing to pay the promised war debt to the USSR created when USSR accepted to face and blunt the Axis forces while the West prepared for their invasion of Europe and Operation Unthinkable. Which was another of Churchill's Gallipoli's - Planing the attack on the USSR. However this was shelved as the Generals from GB and US said at best it would be a long war and possible defeat for the West. Stalin found out about this Operation within weeks of the war ending. Little wonder the USSR never trusted the west after that.

#9: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 1:10 am
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Quote:

That was partly due to the US refusing to pay the promised war debt to the USSR

Interesting, I wasn't aware of the Russians sending ANY supplies of ANY kind to the western Allies at ANY time during the war, but the western allies taking huge risks all during the war, from German submarines and bombing to ship supplies and weapons to the Russians, which was NEVER paid for EVER by the Russians at ANY time still and eventually written of and denied by Stalin as the "cost of war" Sod.

#10: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 2:51 am
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Interesting, I wasn't aware of the Russians sending ANY supplies of ANY kind to the western Allies at ANY time during the war, but the western allies taking huge risks all during the war, from German submarines and bombing to ship supplies and weapons to the Russians, which was NEVER paid for EVER by the Russians at ANY time still and eventually written of and denied by Stalin as the "cost of war" Sod.[/quote]

Well it was agreed by the US that while the west were preparing for the invasion of Europe if USSR could hold the Nazi's. Reconstruction monies would follow after the war. I believe a recent US documentary by Oliver Stone - Untold History of the United States briefly touches on this. But is enough for those for are unaware of the many slight of hands pulled by the Allies upon each other. Also keeping in mind the war was ultimately won and lost on the Eastern Front and the other fronts only tended to be the backup - Nth Africa, Italy and Europe etc.

These supplies you mention were also part of that deal between ultimately US and USSR. Sadly the tanks were of a lesser quality being Shermans at best. That was the only part of the deal they kept but at a guess greatly appreciated. Even the invasion of Europe was late in coming but the reconstruction monies never arrived. One of the main reasons for the asset stripping of Germany post WW2. Several recent articles and books have been written on this saga. If I come across them again I will post the names for you. Not many people least of all are aware of these unkept promises post WW2 to recent.

Off the topic a little. Some companies profited greatly from the war by selling to both sides. A classic was Ford. most of the German made trucks had Ford motors powering them right through the war. In fact Henry Ford was given Grand Cross of the Eagle in 1938 for his service to Germany. Coke was still making and selling it's wares in Nazi Germany during the war also. Pilots in Nth Africa use to strap bottles of drink to their machines and fly to a high altitude, land and have a cool Coke. Some of these things are rarely unknown today. Every country has it's skeletons - the great purges in the USSR pre WW2, forced migrations of white Cossacks post WW2 and many others. Even one of Stalins greatest Generals started off WW2 in a Gulag. Appointed then to the Red Army and after proving his ability took part in most the battles pushing the Axis out of USSR. However at the end of the war he was deemed to be too popular with the soldiers and public so he was sent into exile in Siberia til he died.

#11: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:21 am
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All Soldiers during WWII were well aware that rape was wrong and a crime. I prefer the facts vs wartime and postwar Soviet propaganda in regards to the truth on this subject.

The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers have ranged up to 2 million According to historian William Hitchcock, in many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times. At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[10] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath.[14] Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.[1][15] Antony Beevor describes it as the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history", and has concluded that at least 1.4 million women were raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone.[16] According to Natalya Gesse, Russian soldiers raped German females from eight to eighty years old. Russian women were not spared either.

Do you believe that the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history" actually happened?

Or do you share a view like Dima, a skeptic who celebrates rape as a good joke or Sod98 a skeptic who blames the victims.

#12: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 7:38 am
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Quote:

Every country has it's skeletons

Hey Sod, Ask a Kennedy about their Patriarch.. Joe Kennedy and his nazi sympathizing past, how Goering demanded to see him upon initial capture, etc.. See how fast one changes the subject or runs away.

That subject is hairier than Teddy Kennedy murdering that poor girl at Chappaquiddick bridge...

Point? Many government officials, as well as companies were doing business/friendly with the Germans prior to the war. All that proves is that capitalism works.

#13: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:09 am
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Do you believe that the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history" actually happened?

Or do you share a view like Dima, a skeptic who celebrates rape as a good joke or Sod98 a skeptic who blames the victims.[/quote]

Really you are talking about a Historian who blatantly ignored the causes of the Cold War as Soviet paranoia, hatred of the West etc. In reality it was far more indept and it was the West who was scared of a USSR dominating Europe, refused to pay a war promise, created the Berlin Airlift etc. This very same Historian falls for the same trap lots have fallen for over the years and that is to publish Govt produced evidence ( just stats ) on exactly things like the numbers of women raped in Berlin / Germany. Even your own very good Historian Stephen E Ambrose now questions alot of the information provided after the war by all the Allies and Axis where available as being at best just a guideline. This same trap is what clouds peoples better judgement in modern times on things like WMD's in Iraq prior to the invasion. Sadly media published verbatim govt releases. Even when information to the contrary was available. Hitchcock at best just produces the very same Govt / party line and rehashes the same 70 year old history that then lacked an entire truth ( part truths ).

Also don't read things into what I have said that simply aren't there. I did say rapes happened but not to the extent of up to 2 million when absolutely no evidence of that exists. Historians are meant to work off evidence and draw conclusions from such. But sadly like Hitchcock to date no one has supplied reliable evidence of 2 million rapes or the 100,000 in Berlin. I will say it again, alot of rapes occurred. But also it was an excuse sometimes for those who had to survive at a time of great despair and hardship. Some had relationships with Russians and bore their child and some prostituted themselves etc. There is evidence that a great number of Russians were executed / hung for excesses - rape, murder, looting etc. Granted days after Berlin fell, but not anywhere near the figure suggested nor will they. Remembering many people starved through lack of alternative for a better wording. People need to write without emotion to stick to facts where they lack the ability to produce actual facts or 100,000 witness accounts.

History is full of these accounts and are almost entirely written by the victor. In this case written to scare Western public opinion against idealism of Communism that was taking Europe even in non USSR countries - Greece, France, Germany post WW2 and to further their cause. I am neither Russian or American ( USA ), Communist or a Democracy believer. So for my statements I have tried to remain unbiased and stick to proven facts and not propaganda that even today plagues the West. War on Terrorism - terrorism is an act and not a belief. Otherwise USA would be fighting it's self.

Last edited by sod98 on Tue May 05, 2015 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total

#14: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:14 am
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Hey Sod, Ask a Kennedy about their Patriarch.. Joe Kennedy and his Nazi sympathizing past, how Goering demanded to see him upon initial capture, etc.. See how fast one changes the subject or runs away.

Another is Preston Bush ( Dad and Grandad to the two former Presidents ) who along with other notable US figures of the time were going to be tried as traitors. The then President deciding against it as the US was going into war. Every side had those personalities - wartime pope assisted Nazi Germany, Switzerland sent Jews back to Germany who had escaped to them, Britain sent Cossacks back to USSR after WW2 to face at best Gulags or execution.

#15: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 3:34 pm
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Name any History College Professor who is currently teaching at a University who teaches that The mass rapes of the occupation of Germany is a false story invented for western propaganda.

Good luck on your search.

#16: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: MajorFrank,

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:04 pm
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During the war the Nazis noticed that it was the news about the rapes committed by the Soviet troops that seemed to upset the German civilians the most. The Nazis started to use this in their propaganda in order to bolster support for the Nazi German troops and to dissuade any pro-Allied/Soviet activity by the German civlians. When the Soviets approached and took over German territory, the civilians sometimes took part in partisan-type activity against the Soviets, so it certainly wasn't a one way street with only the Soviets committing atrocities. The high estimates of the numbers of rapes committed by Soviets could be seen to be a continuation of this type of Nazi propaganda.

Naturally all rapes are bad but what I want to draw attention to is that so is murder. Btw Nazi German troops also raped women in their eastern war, and regularly wiped out entire villages of civilians. So thinking which side is worse is very strange since the Nazis were clearly much worse.

Recently there have been a couple of books published on the crimes (including rapes) committed by the western allied troops in the western front (yea I know Daily Mail is not very high class source but just to give an idea of what the books are about). So there is that as well.

What Soldiers Do.

When the Soldiers Came: The Rape of German Women at the End of the Second World War

Incidentally I'm in the middle of reading Beevor's book about the fall of Berlin right now, I know that he favors the high number when it comes to the estimate about the amount of rapes committed by Soviet troops.

#17: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:42 pm
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Good luck on your search.[/quote]

Name me one US Historian who hasn't published the US Govt's / Allies figures without any actual proof and published them verbatim - good luck with that task. No one has shown 100,000 rape complaints and or hospital victim reports etc for Berlin alone. Historians working for any University don't publish any articles / books on topics of Govt concern unbiased - welcome to the new battlefield - propaganda through media.If you can see the problem, too many publish what they are told without evidence which is now sadly too late - 70 years too late. Remember for many years the West continued to claim victory in WW2 was gained by the Western Allies ignoring the reality that victory was gained on the Eastern Front with massive support from their Western Allies. Purposely cutting USSR from the view of at least joint victors if not actual victors. The point I have tried to make to you is one that most Western countries have tried to paint a picture of USSR and it's people no better than what Hitler and Nazi Germany did at times. That view is still held by many today.

#18: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:14 am
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Quote:

The point I have tried to make to you is one that most Western countries have tried to paint a picture of USSR and it's people no better than what Hitler and Nazi Germany did at times.

That is not true. The German government has been apologizing over and over for it's wartime atrocities the last 70 years and we have heard nothing but excuses for most of the Russian atrocities and keep hearing them as retribution for what occurred to them from Germans and their allies.

How can there be healing when the hate never ceases?

#19: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:42 am
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That is not true. The German government has been apologizing over and over for it's wartime atrocities the last 70 years and we have heard nothing but excuses for most of the Russian atrocities and keep hearing them as retribution for what occurred to them from Germans and their allies.

Germany hasn't dealt with it's part in WW2. They have selectively picked what cherry's they want to talk about and ignore others. Even today still allowing marches and gatherings of former SS Units and or their supporters, covered up atrocities to the extent some Germans still believe the Holocaust never happened, former Axis post war Govt sheltering War Criminals, claiming victims of Allied bombing of civilians in cities like Dresden as war crimes when they did the same. The difference being evidence exists of the holocaust but show me the records of these 100,000 rapes in Berlin 1945 - Hospital records and or police reports - they simply don't exist in those numbers. For a country that wrote everything down that incriminated them at War Crimes trials I find it hard to believe that little exists.

Germany still hasn't paid many countries over their wartime behaviour. Greece is now chasing the Germany debt and others will follow if successful. Once again work off facts. Russia / USSR while showing what Germany has done and Allies post WW2 has also hidden their past and only recently are starting to admit to some of their wrong doings.However the Allies have never official mentioned creating the Berlin Airlift, Operation Unthinkable, breaking the agreement to pay USSR reconstruction monies promised, if they blunted the Axis advance. Also many other things to the extent most in the West wouldn't even know these things to be true as you don't. Little wonder Russia doesn't trust the West today with things like the illegal invasion of Iraq and now the illegal bombing of Syria and no one says anything. US foreign policy since WW2 is the worst in the world - 73 countries attacked since 1945. That's worse than China, Russia / USSR and many other countries combined. All in the name of greed - oil and other resources.

I'm sure if you owe a debt to someone to that extent they aren't just going to write it off. Sadly some people can't handle facts as they have been fed a line for so long that becomes their truth - propaganda. All countries use it.

#20: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:58 am
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Sod, I will say this time and time again forever..

The Jewish as a people bore the brunt of WW2. NOT the Russians, NOT the Poles, NOT ANYONE else. The Germans went onto a war of expansion and extermination, of the lesser races, but the Jewish people, as a whole, bore the brunt of the hatred. The Germans HAVE apologized for this, time and time again and still do to this day for the extermination camps and the evil that led up to it.

war reparitions

As for war reparations? The Jews STILL have never gotten the bulk of their belongings back. Records were destroyed in nazi Germany, which must have been shown in post WW2 western countries, or Germany to prove ownership of an item to return to it's rightful owner IF they had survived the war. Reparations? HAH! The consolation prize? A country.. Tiny, given begrudgingly, fighting them tooth and nail, every step of the way by England called Israel that they had to fight for the moment they set foot in it!

Just why do the Greeks need reparations, for giving pensions to government employees who thought they could retire at the age of 50?

#21: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 2:33 am
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The Jews as a people bore the brunt of WW2. NOT the Russians, NOT the Poles, NOT ANYONE else. The Germans went onto a war of expansion and extermination, of the lesser races, but the Jewish people, as a whole, bore the brunt of the hatred. The Germans HAVE apologized for this, time and time again and still do to this day for the extermination camps and the evil that led up to it.

war reparitions

As for war reparations? The Jews STILL have never gotten the bulk of their belongings back. Records were destroyed in nazi Germany, which must have been shown in post WW2 western countries, or Germany to prove ownership of an item to return to it's rightful owner IF they had survived the war. Reparations? HAH! The consolation prize? A country.. Tiny, given begrudgingly, fighting them tooth and nail, every step of the way by England called Israel that they had to fight for the moment they set foot in it!

Just why do the Greeks need reparations, for giving pensions to government employees who thought they could retire at the age of 50?[/quote]

Russia lost far more than the Jews in numbers alone as some Russians were Jews for a starter. Jews were just an excuse to rally people against a race. Some of the wealthy US Industrialist who helped Nazi Germany were themselves Jews. The Jews never had a state at that time either. Per head of population they did lose more as a race along with Gypsies who were stateless to this day. Israel gifted as a state in 1947 to the Jews another story.

Greeks were owed reparations deemed by the world powers following WW2. This debt along with many others haven't been paid. We are now seeing Greece potentially refuse to pay back EU loans til that debt is paid. Greece was fleeced like Spain and Italy by Officials both Govt and EU. At the end of the day a debt still needs paying. Germany has come out of the war better off than alot of their victims through western help. Greece was given back to a dictator that was allied to Nazi Germany during the war by the West. Stalin kept his promise to keep out of Greece during the Communist uprising to which even Churchill agreed.

As for Merkels statement - talk is wind Jon Snow. Lets see the colour of her cash first.

Last edited by sod98 on Fri May 08, 2015 12:52 am; edited 2 times in total

#22: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 2:54 am
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Quote:

Greeks were owed reparations deemed by the world powers following WW2. This debt along with many other haven't been paid. We are now seeing Greece potentially refuse to pay back EU loans til that debt is paid.

That's another story.. German hard bullion and industry is about the only thing holding the EU together (monetarily) anyway. Anyone who thinks that the EU currency will last is in for it. Once they begin to wane, I have doubts, same about the future of a single government what is now US. Bold huh?

Too many hands wanting things for nothing, like Greece and too few willing to do what is required to get it in the 1st place. US has gotten like that also.

#23: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 3:56 am
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That's another story.. German hard bullion and industry is about the only thing holding the EU together (monetarily) anyway. Anyone who thinks that the EU currency will last is in for it. Once they begin to wane, I have doubts, same about the future of a single government what is now US. Bold huh?

Too many hands wanting things for nothing, like Greece and too few willing to do what is required to get it in the 1st place. US has gotten like that also.[/quote]

Can't argue about Germany being the country holding the EU together. However this continued policy of Globalisation of Industry and Countries is doomed to fail. Every country has it's own culture, traditions and ways of doing things. To expect each country to maintain a GDP close to each others is unrealistic and therefore the stronger economies prosper while the more fragile continue to weaken. Just like certain parts of Germany are stronger economically than others. Part of the reason for Germany to dominate the rest of the EU. More Western countries suffer the same problem of sheltering those who can afford to pay more ( tax breaks, exemptions etc ) while the workers prop up the economy or just corrupt Govt's - as Greece and Italy recently have had. Greece still has the extremely wealthy with their Islands, yachts, mansions etc. Sadly they don't contribute to their country in the form of taxes. Some say they provide jobs and revenue that way but that to is flawed thinking. While a man earns 30,000 EU per year and pays tax while another earns millions and doesn't pay any tax the system will continue to flounder.

US Foreign Debt is a scary thing in it's self. Currently US FD is 102pc of their GDP. So they buy more than they sell - living beyond their means. Sorry to keep going back to Russia but theirs is 12pc of a much smaller GDP. Anyway you look at it, that foreign Debt needs to be paid some how one day.

#24: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 4:58 pm
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I support Jerzy Bohdan Szumczyk.

Thank You for your art!

http://carolynyeager.net/russians-outraged-red-army-rape-sculpture

"In Russia, it’s taboo to discuss crimes committed by the former Soviet Union’s Red Army as it swept westward across Europe to conquer Nazi Germany. The “deeply outraged” Russian ambassador to Poland is demanding Warsaw make it taboo in his host country as well."

...Police removed the sculpture the following morning and, for a time, prosecutors considered a possible charge of inciting racial or national hatred, a conviction of which could carry a 2-year prison sentence.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/russia-bearish-on-wartime-rape-statue/

Jerzy Bohdan Szumczyk.jpg

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#25: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:24 pm
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"In Russia, it’s taboo to discuss crimes committed by the former Soviet Union’s Red Army as it swept westward across Europe to conquer Nazi Germany. The “deeply outraged” Russian ambassador to Poland is demanding Warsaw make it taboo in his host country as well."

...Police removed the sculpture the following morning and, for a time, prosecutors considered a possible charge of inciting racial or national hatred, a conviction of which could carry a 2-year prison sentence.

I guess it would be like making a statue of US GI's shooting unarmed German prisoners, Kiwi soldiers in Nth Africa doing the same, Japs in China slaughtering the civilians or even Polish soldiers in German uniform burning homes. What purpose was the statue ever going to serve. Funny enough the Red Army was one of the few to execute soldiers who committed excesses. Maybe not to the extent they should have though. Undoubtedly they many war crimes have gone unpunished by all sides as the victors write the history and the losers suffer it. New Zealand sent their Officer home for killing unarmed German POW's. His held in high regards for his exploits by his Maori tribe.

#26: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:34 am
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Quote:

Nobody deserves to be raped Dima, not you, your wife, your children, not anyone.

after those smiling guys annihilated 20.000.000 of the USSR civilian population taking photos meanwhile (shame they didn't have Instagram that time - we would see many more interesting photos), they should have expected some revenge for slaughtered wifes, children, sisters, brothers coming to their relatives.
and this RED line is there in many German WW2 memoirs as they were really afraid of revenge for what they did on the occupied territories.
and German orders right before the start of Barbarossa allowed soldiers to do anything on the USSR territory as German legislation stopped working in those areas since June 22, 1941. You probably don't know that as they don't tell that on BBC...

but somehow the bloodthirsty Stalin released several orders forbidden raping, pillaging of the German population (I posted translations back at CSO) and somehow they shot rapers and pillagers in the RA - strange, eh?

Last edited by Dima on Sun May 10, 2015 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total

#27: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:37 am
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US_Brake wrote (View Post):

Rape during the occupation of Germany
From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

he war time rapes had been surrounded by decades of silence.[1][2][3][4] According to Antony Beevor, - yeah, cool, same guy time and again.

#28: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:45 am
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Quote:

Or do you share a view like Dima, a skeptic who celebrates rape as a good joke or Sod98 a skeptic who blames the victims.

no, Iam not celebrating as I know it didn't happen, I posted reports from Berlin hospitals back at CSO, but I don't blame anyone for not remembering - people do usually have poor memory.

but even if you believe in that shit, 2.000.000 raped girls (from 12 to 80 haha) vs 20.000.000 raped, tortured or killed....think about that. Fucking Russians indeed.

my granddad was killed in the East Prussia by the mortar bomb in late 1944 so unfortunately he couldn't take part in that orgy Sad

#29: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:49 am
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Quote:

http://carolynyeager.net/russians-outraged-red-army-rape-sculpture

"In Russia, it’s taboo to discuss crimes committed by the former Soviet Union’s Red Army as it swept westward across Europe to conquer Nazi Germany. The “deeply outraged” Russian ambassador to Poland is demanding Warsaw make it taboo in his host country as well.

oh,really? how come Beevor is translated and realeased here?

#30: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 7:19 pm
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Truth be known, drunk Russian soldiers (many of them teenagers) had no ethical problems with committing mass rape of German civilians in 1945, in fact they enjoyed it. They did believe, it was their right as spoils of war they saw it as an appropriate celebration.

It must be difficult to be a Russian today and square this mass rape with history. The easy way to deal with it is to say it never happened, denial. But the problem remains, because mass rape did happen. When denial fails, one can always switch to blaming the victims or justify these crimes as spoils of war. Stalin was the role model for Soviet males. I would expect nothing less than murder, rape, looting and brute force from his army.

I am glad that after the Japanese surrender in 1945 the US Soldiers did not celebrate by raping thousands of Japanese women. That would have brought the same kind of shame on the US soldier as the Russians received after what they did in Germany.

#31: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:23 pm
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US_Brake wrote (View Post):

Truth be known, drunk Russian soldiers (many of them teenagers) had no ethical problems with committing mass rape of German civilians in 1945, in fact they enjoyed it. They did believe, it was their right as spoils of war they saw it as an appropriate celebration.

absolutely, the drunk soldiers did rape (or just fucked for a chocolate) many ofthe German women. Provide any prove (but Beevor) there were 2 mlns raped.
Do you know that Beevor published the book about US rapes?

Quote:

It must be difficult to be a Russian today and square this mass rape with history. The easy way to deal with it is to say it never happened, denial. But the problem remains, because mass rape did happen. When denial fails, one can always switch to blaming the victims or justify these crimes as spoils of war. Stalin was the role model for Soviet males. I would expect nothing less than murder, rape, looting and brute force from his army.

Beevor says US GIs mass raped and pillaged.
Stalin was Georgian jew, I really hate how he tolerated Russsians.

Quote:

I am glad that after the Japanese surrender in 1945 the US Soldiers did not celebrate by raping thousands of Japanese women. That would have brought the same kind of shame on the US soldier as the Russians received after what they did in Germany.

yeah, they just liked to send dry skulls of the killed japanese to the homeland.

#32: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:43 pm
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I am glad that after the Japanese surrender in 1945 the US Soldiers did not celebrate by raping thousands of Japanese women. That would have brought the same kind of shame on the US soldier as the Russians received after what they did in Germany.[/quote]

The very low number of Japanese prisoners taken in the Pacific arena compared to that of mainland Asia against Russia suggests Historians could also draw conclusion that vast numbers of Japs prisoners were shot by Western Allied arnies out of hand. Also no evidence like the 100,000 rapes in Berlin.

#33: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:11 pm
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A kamikaze pilot attempts to surrender to a US warship during the Battle of Leyte Gulf, October 1944.

kamikaze-attack.jpg

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#34: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:12 pm
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US_Brake wrote (View Post):

A kamikaze pilot attempts to surrender to a US warship during the Battle of Leyte Gulf, October 1944.

do you really think he wanted to rape the crew?

#35: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:20 am
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We won't forgive, we won't forget

We won't forgive, we won't forget.jpg

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#36: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: mooxe,

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 4:34 am
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I think everyone here understands atrocities were committed by all sides. In my opinion, it always seems like Russians are trying to downplay their role committing them by saying show me the proof. There really is no proof today that would hold up in court and we all know that. Is there an acceptable number that Russians would agree to? I guess Russians may be happy the number two million was chosen. Its so high and unbelievable that they can hide behind the lack of proof and pretend to be innocent of all of it.

#37: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 5:02 am
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[quote="mooxe";p="80492"]I think everyone here understands atrocities were committed by all sides. In my opinion, it always seems like Russians are trying to downplay their role committing them by saying show me the proof.

Show me the proof is simply because there is very little of it. Sadly straight after the war the Western Allies were planning to attack the USSR - Operation Unthinkable. The time was right for the West to alienate USSR with rumours and or exaggerated stories many of whom started by the Nazi's and heroed by the West - mass rapes by Russians upon the German populous. These scare tactics were on mass to stop the German Army from falling apart and fighting to the end as they did. Funny enough Germans Ministry for Propaganda in Berlin is now the site of the US Embassy.How fitting. Germans during the war and straight after kept the best records of everything often incriminating themselves for war crimes. But little evidence of Police complaints, Military and or hospital records of rape in Berlin to the figures provided - propaganda. The West has never spoken about it's executions.

Type in Allied WW2 war crimes and enough shows up to proof the victor writes the history and the loser has to suffer it ( even video clips of unarmed Axis soldiers being shot on surrendering. Sadly the West turned for no reason other than jealousy, paranoia and greed against the USSR.

I'm not a Russian but acknowledge the use of propaganda by the West since WW2 against many countries. This has often have lead the West down a slippery slope - WMD's in Iraq, Sarin Gas use by Assad and recently Iran helping the coup in Yemen.

Last edited by sod98 on Mon May 11, 2015 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total

#38: Author: sod98,

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 5:25 am
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2.

#39: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 7:23 pm
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Disagree with you that west had no reason to turn against Russia.

The Russians were just as aggressive as the Germans were before the WW2 started. Ask Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland. Ask the poles in Eastern Poland which Russia took over "to protect them from the Germans".

Ask Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Romania, etc. after the war as they had puppet governments installed and were controlled/occupied by Russia. Compare that to Belgium, Greece, France, Holland, Italy, Norway, etc.

Going back to the original subject of Berlin rapes.

The Russians should acknowledge it. It should not have happened though I do not think any army can claim innocence to atrocities (murder, rape, etc.). Unfortunately when leaders want soldiers to hate and kill each other..... The Eastern front seemed to have no rules and was much worse for atrocities than the Western front. Ultimately the hate the Russian leadership instilled in the troops to make them fight harder could not be reversed/turned off easily or quickly when they came into contact with German civilians.....

#40: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 8:59 pm
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[quote="Tejszd";p="80503"]Disagree with you that west had no reason to turn against Russia.

So straight after a war that primarily USSR won on the Eastern Front. The West had every reason to look to invade them - come on. At that time USSR had kept every promise to the West. But the West had let them down by reneging on promised payts, Operation Unthinkable, Berlin Airlift lies etc. Remember post WW2 USA closed up Japan for it's self, GB Commonwealth went back into the colonies lost to dominate them again as did France.

#41: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:46 pm
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In 1947 the Soviet Union rejected the Marshall Plan.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/soviet-union-rejects-marshall-plan-assistance

Who spent the most $ to defeat the Axis? The American people did. Regular folks who paid taxes and bought war bonds. Who offered the Marshall Plan to the world? The US did. The countries who accepted the help received it as promised.

While Stalin's troops raped civilians in Germany, He was sending train after train of all his enemies to Siberia and into concentration camps. Russian POWs, Partisans, Political enemies, German POWs, Imagine if Stalin had controlled all of Germany and France in 1945. The only power that curbed Stalin's continuous mass-murder after WW2 was the western powers.

and another thing Sod... Who in this forum has ever suggested that USSR was not the prime military combatant against Germany in WW2. Anyone who understands military history is aware of this fact. The people of the USSR paid a very high price in blood to serve Stalin's Totalitarian State.

#42: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 5:42 am
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[quote="US_Brake";p="80506"]In 1947 the Soviet Union rejected the Marshall Plan.

The Marshall Plan was rejected as it gave the USA unvetted entry into economies of countries like Poland, Romania etc. In other words not only would they have a say in that country, they would also have access to sensitive information regards those countries. It's a bit like Industrial espionage for the want of a better word. Can you imagine USA saying yes to Russia doing the same in Japan 1947 - they didn't even want their allies in Japan like GB or Australia. That is just a very quick run down. Many books on the subject that should help you. Really you must stop reading wiki for your acknowledge of History.

USA spent the most dollars on defeating Germany undoubted but you don't fight wars / conflicts on dollars alone or win them as such - Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia prove that. Also pre 1941 USA Industralists also spent millions on supporting Nazi Germany - Ford, Coke, Brown Bros, Preston Bush etc. The Marshall Plan was good for the USA but intrusive for other countries - control over their economies. It was considered too Capitalist even by some Western European's.Can you show how the Western Powers stopped this so called mass rape as there is no evidence of the 100,000 rapes in Berlin but you might hold the evidence.

Don't panic yourself with fanciful paranoia of what if's. It suited the west that USSR blunt and defeat the Nazi war machine to which they did. As said many times - the Western Allies sadly betrayed USSR with Operation Unthinkable, Berlin Airlift lies, broken promises of reconstruction monies - without strings attached. Churchill's quote about the " Iron Curtain " actually is another quote from the Nazi's - Goebbels. You seem to mistake Western Propaganda for truth but don't let that worry you. Propaganda was designed to influence the weak and feeble minded. There always is at least two sides to every story - yours, mine and the truth.

As for those who died for USSR - that's because the war was fought largely in the East. Remember USA was late for the two world wars. But in WW2 were profiting nicely prior to Dec 1941 by selling / manufacturing for both sides. Just like all those who are now dying in USA's many created and backed conflicts - 73 ( Syria ) countries since WW2. That's more than China, Russia / USSR and many other countries combined. That's what was wrong with the Marshall Plan and other intrusive Plans - hidden agenda's. Keep trying to use facts and not Wiki.

#43: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Schmal_Turm,

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 7:40 pm
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Tejszd wrote (View Post):

Disagree with you that west had no reason to turn against Russia.

The Russians were just as aggressive as the Germans were before the WW2 started. Ask Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland. Ask the poles in Eastern Poland which Russia took over "to protect them from the Germans".

Ask Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Romania, etc. after the war as they had puppet governments installed and were controlled/occupied by Russia. Compare that to Belgium, Greece, France, Holland, Italy, Norway, etc.

I happen to agree with you Tejszd.

According to former Soviet military intelligence officer Vladimir Rezun (writing under the pen name Viktor Suvorov), Hitler was forced to launch a preemptive assault against the Soviet Union in June 1941, to forestall an attack on Western Europe by Stalin in July.

Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov, who in 1941 was the Soviet Navy minister and a member of the Central Committee of the Soviet Communist Party, was quoted by Suvorov as stating in his postwar memoirs, "For me there is one thing beyond all argument—J. V. Stalin not only did not exclude the possibility of war with Hitler's Germany, on the contrary, he considered such a war...inevitable....J. V. Stalin made preparations for war...wide and varied preparations—beginning on dates...which he himself had selected. Hitler upset his calculations."

So according to Suvorov, Stalin's plan was to overrun an exhausted German Wehrmacht after they had utterly destroyed the Allied forces in France. The Soviet Union would have then been the Masters of ALL of Europe instead of just half of it that they received as the spoils of war as a result of WWII.

#44: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:09 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

I think everyone here understands atrocities were committed by all sides. In my opinion, it always seems like Russians are trying to downplay their role committing them by saying show me the proof. There really is no proof today that would hold up in court and we all know that. Is there an acceptable number that Russians would agree to? I guess Russians may be happy the number two million was chosen. Its so high and unbelievable that they can hide behind the lack of proof and pretend to be innocent of all of it.

yeah, and that's why even nowadays there are Nazis in court.
Most everything can be proved as most of the documents are there in archives (it's like internet).

I can understand your point and that makes same sence as WMD in Iraq, no problem for me, you can believe in anything you want - that's a kind of religion which doesn't need any proofs.

But again while I know (basing on documents) that it's a bullshit I believe they (RA soldiers) deserved to have some revenge for their wifes, sisters, daughters, etc. Shame for you they were not allowed and it was strictly punished by the RA commanders.

#45: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:28 pm
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Tejszd wrote (View Post):

Disagree with you that west had no reason to turn against Russia.

hate us as long as you fear us Smile

Quote:

The Russians were just as aggressive as the Germans were before the WW2 started. Ask Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland. Ask the poles in Eastern Poland which Russia took over "to protect them from the Germans".

what? The World order has changed 29.09.38 and it was not done by the USSR.
probably you don't know that Poland occupied the areas in Chezhoslovakia same time as the Germans?
so you think USSR was so stupid to be away of these changes?

Quote:

Ask Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Romania, etc. after the war as they had puppet governments installed and were controlled/occupied by Russia. Compare that to Belgium, Greece, France, Holland, Italy, Norway, etc.

you know before the War the USSR had the agreement with Germany to share areas of infuluence, after the War the USSR had the same agreement with the USA.
So?

Quote:

Going back to the original subject of Berlin rapes.
The Russians should acknowledge it. It should not have happened though I do not think any army can claim innocence to atrocities (murder, rape, etc.). Unfortunately when leaders want soldiers to hate and kill each other..... The Eastern front seemed to have no rules and was much worse for atrocities than the Western front. Ultimately the hate the Russian leadership instilled in the troops to make them fight harder could not be reversed/turned off easily or quickly when they came into contact with German civilians.....

any proofs? or you just believe in it?

#46: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:34 pm
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Quote:

Even the Western historicans like Glantz, Kershaw, Nipe clearly says Rezun writes bullshit.
You are like 25 years outdated (that time he was really popular) as since that the archives in Russia are open and everything is well known.
Try to discuss him on AHF or Feldgrau Wink

#47: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 6:20 am
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According to former Soviet military intelligence officer Vladimir Rezun (writing under the pen name Viktor Suvorov), Hitler was forced to launch a preemptive assault against the Soviet Union in June 1941, to forestall an attack on Western Europe by Stalin in July.

That sort of logic would have suited the Bush Administration when they invaded Iraq illegally. A preemptive strike. It's a total nonsense to even remotely believe such a fanciful story. Stalin's army was still rebuilding ( Purges ) and not massing to attack Germany. Next you will be blaming the Jews for gassing themselves to setup Hitler, the Yanks placed their warships under jap bombs at Pearl, Italy was reclaiming old Roman lands from the Barbarians.

Your Vladimir Rezun - aka Victor Suvurov was a defector and his family were White Russians. Of course the Red Army in his eyes would be the aggressor - he family lost their influence and money.

#48: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: dj,

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:19 pm
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War is hell. The Germans themselves had predicted the Russians would seek revenge long before the siege of Berlin. The Germans were the ones that broke the alliance pact with Stalin and ravaged the USSR bringing it to the brink of defeat. Not saying it was justified by any means. But the Germans themselves knew it was going to happen. No war in history and hopefully no war in the future will compare to the level of violence and hatred in the Eastern Front.

#49: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Schmal_Turm,

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:35 pm
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For anyone who is critical of Vladimir Rezun (as I knew that Dima and Sod would be), I would first ask that they read at least his first book, Icebreaker, which is available free online as an ebook. I just read it myself and I am convinced that his theory has some merit. If he was to just present his ideas without any evidence to back it up I would be the first to criticize his views.

It doesn't surprise me the charges leveled about him by Glantz. To me Glantz is just a little too praiseworthy of the Soviet Union. Historians after they have put time and energy into formulating their own views of history don't very much like someone coming around and disagreeing with them. After all, they are the experts.

The way that Dima and Sod have characterized Vladimir Rezun is what I would expect of someone who has very little argument—use of character assassination as a convenient and fairly effective tactic. Hell, the liberals in this country use it all the time when they want to defeat what someone is saying without having to argue why that is so. And then Sod uses the same tactic, in a sense, to somehow claim that next would be the Jews gassing themselves.

I also found it interesting that Dima and Sod didn't try to refute the quote I offered by Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov.

#50: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: dj,

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 8:22 pm
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Wow, here comes the Fox News clones...spinning a story about Berlin into a Partisan U.S. political argument. Who knew on Fox News they never employ character attacks? Must be a liberal conspiracy. Just ask Fox News. Gretta Van Liar on Fox said a million dumbazz viewers sent her emails asking about Federal takeover of Texas. Are you kidding me Schmal? What a joke.

#51: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Schmal_Turm,

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:44 pm
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What you say dj may be true about Fox. I really don't watch it much at all, and I really don't care anyway, as there is too much I can't believe that they are broadcasting or not broadcasting. So I am afraid your little character attacks on me won't stick as I have read too much about the goings on in the U.S. government, whether it is the Republicans of the Democrats in office, to ever trust what they say again.

#52: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 11:06 pm
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Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post):

I also found it interesting that Dima and Sod didn't try to refute the quote I offered by Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov.

haha are you that brainwashed?
Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov, who in 1941 was the Soviet Navy minister and a member of the Central Committee of the Soviet Communist Party, was quoted by Suvorov as stating in his postwar memoirs, "For me there is one thing beyond all argument—J. V. Stalin not only did not exclude the possibility of war with Hitler's Germany, on the contrary, he considered such a war...inevitable....J. V. Stalin made preparations for war...wide and varied preparations—beginning on dates...which he himself had selected. Hitler upset his calculations."
you know that's well known Smile

of cause Stalin knew the war is coming and they were preparing the sites in Ural for the factories to be evacuated. The documents show that the General HQ of RKKA expected 150% casualties of RKKA (of initial numbers) during first year with 300% of vehicles and that's why the tried to build as many as possible in the Peace time as they knew the Western industry is much more advanced than the Soviet.

#53: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Schmal_Turm,

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 11:50 pm
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No, Dima, you are the one who is brainwashed. Anybody who can deny all of the evidences of atrocities that have been perpetrated by the Soviet Union over all the years, both to their own citizens and to all of the captive nations, has got to be in complete denial.

Oh, by the way, did you ever read Vladimir Rezun's books?

#54: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:40 am
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[quote="Schmal_Turm";p="80602"]No, Dima, you are the one who is brainwashed. Anybody who can deny all of the evidences of atrocities that have been perpetrated by the Soviet Union over all the years, both to their own citizens and to all of the captive nations, has got to be in complete denial.

What evidence. One non descript journeyman as a historian with a great dislike for USSR / Russia. Surely only a fool would think this theory to be true. The vast majority of western historical evidence makes a non sense of this apologist. I have read one of his early books if not his first and found that to be inconsistant, boring and reflected a man trying to justify his decision in life. I couldn't read another of this guys drivel. Only the most desperate could do so only out of wanting to justify his lost cause. Iam surely you find Mein Kampf great reading too.

The atrocities committed during the war were committed by all - Russia shooting Polish Officers, Japs - POWs, Germans - 6m Jews and invading numerous countries. US shooting German and Jap POW's, Kiwi's executed German and Italians captured in a breakout Nth Africa etc. Germany and Russia of course committed more by the very nature of the biggest war arena, battles and numbers - total war.

Please don't embarrass yourself further making Germany a victim of WW2 as that's just a school boy rant at best.

#55: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 4:37 am
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Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post):

No, Dima, you are the one who is brainwashed. Anybody who can deny all of the evidences of atrocities that have been perpetrated by the Soviet Union over all the years, both to their own citizens and to all of the captive nations, has got to be in complete denial.

well, maybe Iam but I've never told USSR was good but still show me the evidences of atrocities so we can discuss.

Quote:

Oh, by the way, did you ever read Vladimir Rezun's books?

sure, all of them - was a big fan 20 years ago Smile

#56: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 8:23 am
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Dima wrote (View Post):

Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post):

well, maybe Iam but I've never told USSR was good but still show me the evidences of atrocities so we can discuss.

Quote:

Oh, by the way, did you ever read Vladimir Rezun's books?

sure, all of them - was a big fan 20 years ago Smile

Germany kept the best records pre war, during the war and post war. No evidence to back up these generalisations that were created to put fear into the German population and army. So neither would give up til the bitter end. Sadly the Allies used the same stories to isolate the USSR and added their own - Berlin Airlift etc.

#57: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 9:42 am
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[quote="sod98";p="80672"]

Dima wrote (View Post):

but they lost alot of documents during the Defeat. Number of casualties are impossible to track since December 1944.
Btw this week the Russian State archive started to upload all the captured German WW2 docs http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/nodes/1-fond-500 - will be available online to everyone Smile

#58: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:33 am
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[quote="Dima";p="80673"]

sod98 wrote (View Post):

Dima wrote (View Post):

Yes they lost alot of documents but not that many that it wouldn't have shown the number of rapes in Berlin at a high rate - 100,000 impossible.

#59: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 11:43 am
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[quote="sod98";p="80674"]

Dima wrote (View Post):

Yes they lost alot of documents but not that many that it wouldn't have shown the number of rapes in Berlin at a high rate - 100,000 impossible.

I wonder why Beevor and his followers never quote hospital reports as they are available.

#60: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 12:47 pm
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[quote="Dima";p="80675"]

sod98 wrote (View Post):

Dima wrote (View Post):

Yes they lost alot of documents but not that many that it wouldn't have shown the number of rapes in Berlin at a high rate - 100,000 impossible.

I wonder why Beevor and his followers never quote hospital reports as they are available.

Hospital reports, police reports, military reports post WW2 and so on. It's too convenient sometimes just to go with these cases of mass hysteria for the allies. Remember at the time the Allies were saying these things with no evidence. Churchill was busy preparing Operation Unthinkable - the Invasion of the Soviet Union. So these stories would help provide reason for the unprovoked attack if it happened. These stories were borrowed from the Nazi's by the Allies just like " the Iron Curtain ". It was wrongly credited to Churchill, actually Goebbels coined the phrase. Saying that the Soviet Union wanted to overrun Europe when it was Germany who attacked USSR but the Allies also used the same propaganda. Beevor is just another product of Institutional Historians. They print the Official party line without questioning or investigating. Using hearsay instead of facts - a usual Western flaw ( Patsies ).

#61: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 1:43 pm
—

Quote:

Btw Hospital reports, police reports, military reports post WW2 and so on. It's too convenient sometimes just to go with these cases of mass hysteria for the allies. Remember at the time the Allies were saying these things with no evidence. Churchill was busy preparing Operation Unthinkable - the Invasion of the Soviet Union. So these stories would help provide reason for the unprovoked attack if it happened. These stories were borrowed from the Nazi's by the Allies just like " the Iron Curtain ". It was wrongly credited to Churchill, actually Goebbels coined the phrase. Saying that the Soviet Union wanted to overrun Europe when it was Germany who attacked USSR but the Allies also used the same propaganda. Beevor is just another product of Institutional Historians. They print the Official party line without questioning or investigating. Using hearsay instead of facts - a usual Western flaw ( Patsies ).

now you are officially commy haha
btw interesting that USA alone had more than ~20.000 tanks on May 1945 (+ Commonwealth, France and German units) vs ~30.000 tanks in RA so Unthinkable was not that unthinkable Wink

#62: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:38 pm
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now you are officially commy haha
btw interesting that USA alone had more than ~20.000 tanks on May 1945 (+ Commonwealth, France and German units) vs ~30.000 tanks in RA so Unthinkable was not that unthinkable Wink

[/quote]

I just like a bit of balance instead of the blind rants created through Govt releases without any evidence.

Churchill would have attacked USSR if the figures had stacked up in the Western Allies favour. At best a long protracted conflict,but most likely a lost war for the West was the outcome.

#63: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Pzt_Decoy,

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 2:07 pm
—
Ok now I see it,

The Soviets where very disciplined troops behaving correctly in every way, The Germans should be glad to have these angels of justice liberating them, those women where just begging to be raped and killed for a 'piece of chocolate' , all the crimes they commited are just propaganda based on nothing but lies. Nonsense.

But everyone else, the Germans and the Western Allies where nothing but scum that behaved like animals, all true and totally not based on after war propaganda at all..interesting.

Personally I think every nation involved in WW2 has blood in it's hands, some more than others, to think otherwise from a conflict in that scale is foolishness.

Just my 2 cents anyway.

#64: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 7:59 pm
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Pzt_Decoy wrote (View Post):

Ok now I see it,
The Soviets where very disciplined troops behaving correctly in every way, The Germans should be glad to have these angels of justice liberating them, those women where just begging to be raped and killed for a 'piece of chocolate' , all the crimes they commited are just propaganda based on nothing but lies. Nonsense.

another good example of I CAN WRITE BUT DON"T WANT TO READ person.
if you could read my posts above you could see that the RA Command issued orders forbiding raping and pillaging of the German population and quite a few WERE shot or sent to Penal units because of that. And that's how it stopped very fast back in 1944.

But you can believe in your religion Smile

#65: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Schmal_Turm,

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 11:48 pm
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I would probably agree to some degree with you on that Dima. I read one account where an officer was saying that Socialism was getting a bad name, reportedly by word of Stalin, because of the claimed rapes and supposedly they starting cracking down on it by executing the offenders. To me that would seem to represent an element of the truth.

But I also agree that all the countries involved had some share in atrocities committed in the war. I think of the fire-bombing of Dresden as a particularly heinous crime as there was no real military value by that action.

#66: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 1:21 am
—

Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post):

I would probably agree to some degree with you on that Dima. I read one account where an officer was saying that Socialism was getting a bad name, reportedly by word of Stalin, because of the claimed rapes and supposedly they starting cracking down on it by executing the offenders. To me that would seem to represent an element of the truth.

so I read recenly an account where the US citizen decided to join IG. So do you think you can extrapolate that to the all US citizens?
same thing is here, there were RA soldiers who did that but they were punished and the it was not tolerated by the HQ.
while raping/pillaging/killing was allowed by the German HQ on 21.06.1941 as no German soldier could be courted for that on the USSR territories by the German laws.
And that's why they were so afraid of what they did that they believed in anything coming from Gebbels.

#67: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: sod98,

Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 7:53 am
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[quote="Pzt_Decoy";p="80743"]Ok now I see it,

The Soviets where very disciplined troops behaving correctly in every way, The Germans should be glad to have these angels of justice liberating them, those women where just begging to be raped and killed for a 'piece of chocolate' , all the crimes they commited are just propaganda based on nothing but lies. Nonsense.

But everyone else, the Germans and the Western Allies where nothing but scum that behaved like animals, all true and totally not based on after war propaganda at all..interesting.

Personally I think every nation involved in WW2 has blood in it's hands, some more than others, to think otherwise from a conflict in that scale is foolishness.

What are you smoking. I have never read any article by another person on this site that described anything like the rant you have written. Whatever it is you are on either stop using it or double the dose. I hope you are embarrassed kid as you should be.

Congrats for the most foolish contribution to date.

#68: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: mooxe,

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:06 pm
—

Link

#69: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: dj,

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:46 am
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I personally do not believe the Russian-sourced accounts of what happened in Berlin. So they found some Westerners to attempt to corroborate their narratives of what happened at the end. Because of fear of reprisals from Stalin against his own leadership I am sure the West was fed cover stories and lies...and they fell for it.

#70: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: dj,

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:41 pm
—
Correction: meant to say I definitely believe this Russian ordinary soldier and others like him whom had the guts to call out war crimes. Just don't believe the Russian state historical accounts, most of it at least.
Both during WW2-era and the "new" Russia which is really like the old Russia. I especially don't believe the Russian state media accounts of what happened in Berlin.

#71: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:47 pm
—
The man on video is Leonid Rabichev. First times he wrote about mass rapes in 2005, in 2008 his book 'The War Will Write It Off: Memoirs of a Signal Officer of the 31st Army. 1941-1945' was released. He do not say or write any exact dates of such events, but from the text of book it can happen only during Goldap/Gumbinnen Operation, October 1944, in which 31st Army participated. The operation was a failure, soviet offensive was quickly repelled, many cities switched sides for several times in a day. So, was there a place for 150 kilometers un-opposed marches, two days long orgies and so on, everybody can guess for itself. Read also about so-called 'Nemmersdorf massacre' at same period.

#72: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC Author: mooxe,

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:16 pm
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JFFulcrum, thank you for identifying him. Looking up his books now, it would seem most are not available in English though.

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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