Tejszd wrote (View Post): |
Disagree with you that west had no reason to turn against Russia.
The Russians were just as aggressive as the Germans were before the WW2 started. Ask Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland. Ask the poles in Eastern Poland which Russia took over "to protect them from the Germans". Ask Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Romania, etc. after the war as they had puppet governments installed and were controlled/occupied by Russia. Compare that to Belgium, Greece, France, Holland, Italy, Norway, etc. |
mooxe wrote (View Post): |
I think everyone here understands atrocities were committed by all sides. In my opinion, it always seems like Russians are trying to downplay their role committing them by saying show me the proof. There really is no proof today that would hold up in court and we all know that. Is there an acceptable number that Russians would agree to? I guess Russians may be happy the number two million was chosen. Its so high and unbelievable that they can hide behind the lack of proof and pretend to be innocent of all of it. |
Tejszd wrote (View Post): |
Disagree with you that west had no reason to turn against Russia. |
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The Russians were just as aggressive as the Germans were before the WW2 started. Ask Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland. Ask the poles in Eastern Poland which Russia took over "to protect them from the Germans". |
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Ask Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Romania, etc. after the war as they had puppet governments installed and were controlled/occupied by Russia. Compare that to Belgium, Greece, France, Holland, Italy, Norway, etc. |
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Going back to the original subject of Berlin rapes.
The Russians should acknowledge it. It should not have happened though I do not think any army can claim innocence to atrocities (murder, rape, etc.). Unfortunately when leaders want soldiers to hate and kill each other..... The Eastern front seemed to have no rules and was much worse for atrocities than the Western front. Ultimately the hate the Russian leadership instilled in the troops to make them fight harder could not be reversed/turned off easily or quickly when they came into contact with German civilians..... |
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I happen to agree with you Tejszd.
According to former Soviet military intelligence officer Vladimir Rezun (writing under the pen name Viktor Suvorov), Hitler was forced to launch a preemptive assault against the Soviet Union in June 1941, to forestall an attack on Western Europe by Stalin in July. Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov, who in 1941 was the Soviet Navy minister and a member of the Central Committee of the Soviet Communist Party, was quoted by Suvorov as stating in his postwar memoirs, "For me there is one thing beyond all argument—J. V. Stalin not only did not exclude the possibility of war with Hitler's Germany, on the contrary, he considered such a war...inevitable....J. V. Stalin made preparations for war...wide and varied preparations—beginning on dates...which he himself had selected. Hitler upset his calculations." So according to Suvorov, Stalin's plan was to overrun an exhausted German Wehrmacht after they had utterly destroyed the Allied forces in France. The Soviet Union would have then been the Masters of ALL of Europe instead of just half of it that they received as the spoils of war as a result of WWII. |
Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post): |
I also found it interesting that Dima and Sod didn't try to refute the quote I offered by Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov. |
Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post): |
No, Dima, you are the one who is brainwashed. Anybody who can deny all of the evidences of atrocities that have been perpetrated by the Soviet Union over all the years, both to their own citizens and to all of the captive nations, has got to be in complete denial. |
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Oh, by the way, did you ever read Vladimir Rezun's books? |
Dima wrote (View Post): | ||||
well, maybe Iam but I've never told USSR was good but still show me the evidences of atrocities so we can discuss.
sure, all of them - was a big fan 20 years ago . |
Dima wrote (View Post): |
Germany kept the best records pre war, during the war and post war. No evidence to back up these generalisations that were created to put fear into the German population and army. So neither would give up til the bitter end. Sadly the Allies used the same stories to isolate the USSR and added their own - Berlin Airlift etc. |
sod98 wrote (View Post): | ||
but they lost alot of documents during the Defeat. Number of casualties are impossible to track since December 1944. Btw this week the Russian State archive started to upload all the captured German WW2 docs http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/nodes/1-fond-500 - will be available online to everyone . |
Dima wrote (View Post): |
Yes they lost alot of documents but not that many that it wouldn't have shown the number of rapes in Berlin at a high rate - 100,000 impossible. |
sod98 wrote (View Post): | ||
I wonder why Beevor and his followers never quote hospital reports as they are available. |
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