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CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell Stwa)

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#1: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell Stwa) Author: TheImperatorKnight,

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 8:38 pm
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Hey everyone! I finally got Modern Tactics and... well it actually surprised me! It's better than I thought it was going to be!

Click on THIS LINK RIGHT HERE to see my video. But here's a brief/incomplete summary -

The combat on the tactical map is some of the best in the series, and there's several features that are superior to any other game in the series. Yet it's let down by not having a strategic system. If you’re new to the close combat series, don’t buy this game. If you’re a veteran who’s already bought a few of the games, consider getting this game... and if you do get it, tell me so we can play some 10 player multiplayer!

Also, don't tell Stwa. We don't want him to think he was right all this time Wink

#2: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 9:54 pm
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Great Videos and Site TheImperatorKnight!

count me in on any 10 player test... I own it.

#3: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: TheImperatorKnight,

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm
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Cheers Brake!

I'll be honest, CCFanatics needs some work and attention from me... been way too busy making videos but I will return to work on it at some point Smile

#4: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 10:20 pm
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Easy for make new mods TIK!!

#5: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: TheImperatorKnight,

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 10:27 pm
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DAK_Legion wrote (View Post):

Easy for make new mods TIK!!

"CCMT Small Map mod" Laughing

It's not got a strategic system so it's bound to be easier

#6: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 8:27 pm
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http://www.closecombatseries.net/Hosted/dak_legion/CCMT/

#7: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 8:29 pm
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My favourite..Tula mods;)

#8: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:21 pm
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Very good, TIK.

I agree with some points and share your frustrations expressed on the video.

All that is left in me is numbness about the management and direction this series took, this happened after they announced GtC as I was kind of butthurt about that. Hopefully TBF is the equivalent of a fresh SO Install and not a restart to the same buggy pattern, and at least they could hire a nice team like in Atomic days.

I personally don't enjoy this modern setting, most modern I go is Vietnam as I think CC is not made to handle recent modern conflicts. There are other engines for that.

I still love the games though. 2,3 and 5 still are my favorites. All for different reasons. Sorry 4 I tried to like you but you're so ugly with all that snow and locked FP's, I need to be really on the mood.

Cheers.

#9: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:39 am
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The best feature of any CC game (including CCMT) is to NOT have a campaign mode. Many issues are solved.

CCMT is expandable in all respects. The only constraint to adding more maps to CCMT seems to be the size of your disk partition. Over time, many of the "mods" I put together, really was just about modifying or adding maps. Mafi's 5CC is recommended. CCMT has the best combat model for modern conflicts and weaponry, like WW2, or NAM, or Iraq, or really anything post WW1. CCMT has replay, and no other game has this.

Last edited by Stwa on Tue May 05, 2015 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total

#10: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:13 pm
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By the time of CC5, CC had become a total arcade game. There are a lot of videos around that demonstrate this fact, with soliders running willy nilly through walls, structures, in big gaggles, but they are somehow able to fire all their weapons from these gaggles. This is what made CC5 games fun for most of the participants.

The same thing happend in Rome Total War, and everyone liked that game. The troops moved at light speed, and they could dash through or around obstactles before players could even react with keyboard or mouse commands. A complete arcade fest, like CC5.

Last edited by Stwa on Tue May 05, 2015 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total

#11: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 2:07 am
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In conclusion;

There was a time, at this site, when the Matrix bashers were in abundance. But when you consider the complexity of a game like CC, you really cant evaluate what you have, until you have logged a serious amount of game time.

If Matrix releases TBF, then it took them a decade to realize it is the campaign mode in each title that is causing the problems that persist.

So, perhaps for noobs, you can rank the CC releases from Matrix easily. The ranking becomes the order in which these games appeared or were released as follows:

1. COI, 2. CCMT, 3. WAR. 4. TLD, 5. LSA

#12: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: TheImperatorKnight,

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:37 am
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Stwa, I agree on all points you said, even the order of the games. The only thing I don't agree with is not having a campaign is good for CC. Most of the people who commented on my video said they would get CCMT, if only it had a campaign Sad

It seems that this game, and the others by Matrix, have all been designed with multiplayer in mind. And that's fine. But once again, it boils down to the fact that most players play single player, and they want some sort of campaign system.

#13: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 4:06 pm
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Top 2 close combat games.

1. COI

2. CCMT

#14: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:50 pm
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If two scenarios can be create an operation would be great for CCMT

Play two scenarios and after the game present a final result about the operation.

Style COI with notepad for Grand Campaigns

#15: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:39 am
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TheImperatorKnight wrote (View Post):

The rankings I gave above are based on game play, not popularity. People may want a campaign game, but Atomic, Destineer, and Matrix spent way over a decade proving to all of us, that they cant make a campaign game that functions to the expectations of these players. A fact that is discovered by the players themselves after they purchase any CC title with a campaign mode.

The reason Matrix keeps harping the multiplayer thing, is because that means less programming for them. Perhaps TBF will shed more light on this subject, since there will be NO multiplayer, and NO campaign mode. Which directly contradicts all the BS that has been spewed over time by advocates of these methods. In addition, there may not be a way to add new objects to TBF, so does that also mean NO modding.

So, maybe the bigger, better thinkers have arrived at a plan B for CC going forward. Perhaps a formula that will finally fix CC for all time. NO multiplayer, NO campaign mode, and NO modding. WTF!

#16: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: papa_whisky,

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 3:59 pm
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This was the one game that I was to a limited extent invloved in its development as a beta tester and a few other tasks. It was a whole head above CCM3 that had more flaws that things that worked but the release of CCMT still had way too many problems on its release that coincided with a melt down with the owners of the code at that time and a total public bitch up that just turned too many people away.

I tried modding the hell out of it but I still couldn't get it work how I thought it should most especially the crawl of death totally crap pathing and a number of other quirks that ruined it for me. If pathing issues and crawl of death was sorted that would be a big step up and if enough players had it to make multiplayer games possbile it would be a blast. That will almost certainly never happen now. The step down from CCM3 was that the AI never mounted vehicles in CCMT that was also never achieved in GTC. It is pretty scary when you get a load of troop transports converging on your location packed full of men.

TIK I totally agree with your analysis about features they should have kept in the other games.

#17: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 5:07 pm
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Quote:

Stwa, I agree on all points you said, even the order of the games. The only thing I don't agree with is not having a campaign is good for CC. Most of the people who commented on my video said they would get CCMT, if only it had a campaign

Agree TIK. Game is decent, bought it fairly recently also and it is missing the campaign mode to work well. Some other features, such as ops/scenario builder to me are pretty friendly, though I would have preferred for the time frame to have been Korean war, which has been ignored by Matrix.

Quote:

The best feature of any CC game (including CCMT) is to NOT have a campaign mode. Many issues are solved.

This has been hit on before STWA.. Lack of campaign tools for post CC5 that are easy and quick to use, like BGEdit and QClone, where campaign modifications can be made both quick and on the fly to virtually remake a brand new campaign in minutes, an entirely new experience rather than those dragging MS Word spreadsheets and EXCel. No matter how many times (virtually) play a CC3-5 campaign, can remake them fairly quickly into new with those tools and in longer CAMPAIGNS, not short scenarios/operations.

That post CC5 BGEdit tool equivalent is the one thing missing from the community.

Werf

#18: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 6:06 pm
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papa_whisky wrote (View Post):

the release of CCMT still had way too many problems on its release ...

I haven't played the original release since January 2008. Subsequnt iterations were much better.

papa_whisky wrote (View Post):

I still couldn't get it work how I thought it should most especially the crawl of death totally crap pathing and a number of other quirks that ruined it for me. If pathing issues and crawl of death was sorted that would be a big step up and if enough players had it to make multiplayer games possbile it would be a blast.

I only allow 2 vehicles of any kind per side, and I NEVER found human or AI player pathing an issue.

Crawl of death I covered in an article I posted here at CCS called "The AI Belly Down Assault". Players that complain about crawling in CCMT have clearly not logged a lot of time with the game. The AI runs upright a lot to (check the replays), but usually when the team has not been fired upon or sighted.

As a general rule of thumb, troops hit the dirt, when the SHTF in CCMT. Many gamers are so used to the Arcade fest from CC5 days, they insist that teams be allowed to run upright most of the game without encountering fatigue, or getting shot.

In addition, the AI is brave. So when ordered to capture an objective, the AI will commit teams with diligence and CARRY OUT the attacks, usually prone, because to assault these positions standing up or running would be suicide in real life and CCMT. CCMT is not CC5, so the troops cannot run at 30 mph plus. Which is why teams run everywhere in CC5. They run, blow through a few structures, then run some more.

Last edited by Stwa on Thu May 07, 2015 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

#19: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 6:22 pm
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

Lack of campaign tools for post CC5 that are easy and quick to use, like BGEdit and QClone, where campaign modifications can be made both quick and on the fly to virtually remake a brand new campaign in minutes, an entirely new experience rather than those dragging MS Word spreadsheets and EXCel. No matter how many times (virtually) play a CC3-5 campaign, can remake them fairly quickly into new with those tools and in longer CAMPAIGNS, not short scenarios/operations.

I noticed you used the phrase "virtually remake", which indicates to moi, that you JOHNSILVER, are having trouble buying your own BS. I assure you no one in the past, present, or future, will be remaking brand new campaigns (virtual or otherwise) in MINUTES. You are simply on drugs. Laughing

There have been modders, many gaming enterprises, tools and accessories, but despite all this effort for over 15 years, the campaign mode just never materialized in a meaningful way.

Last edited by Stwa on Thu May 07, 2015 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

#20: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 6:41 pm
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papa_whisky wrote (View Post):

The step down from CCM3 was that the AI never mounted vehicles in CCMT that was also never achieved in GTC. It is pretty scary when you get a load of troop transports converging on your location packed full of men.

With CCMT I played a gazillion WW2 scenarios, all on maps of 20x20 deployment tiles or less. So, I disabled mount/dismount for the few vehicles that had the capability.

Why? Because, even in WW2 armies would not let soft skinned personel carriers or trucks get that close to enemy troops, for fear they would be instantly wasted. The never ending zeal to make CC an arcade game, has players wanting motoized troop transports converging on enemy positions, probably at 60 mph plus, no matter the terrain.

Look, I like arcade games. I played Delta Force Xtreme on-line for years, sometimes at over 30 hours a stretch. But, I like CCMT because it is NOT an arcade game.

#21: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:18 pm
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Quote:

That's nonsense on your part dudeski. Take BGEdit with a CC5 mod.. ANY, except for think it's Ortuna, that has some error and you can create entirely new teams out of it. Many designers left available in the DATA weapons that shouldn't have been available, so you can give either side WTF you want.. Just play the dang thing on the same map, same timeframe if you don't want to go further and make it quick-n-dirty, or open up freedeploy and go into more detail. Changing anything else will take more than...Half an hour to an hour for entirely new EVERYTHING on EVERY team? Try doing that on post CC5??

On Drugs?? WHERE is the tool like that for post CC5?? Where is the QClone, for Vehicles modding, Weapons modding???? On Drugs?? Nah... I KNOW WTF am talking about dude....

Werf

#22: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:04 pm
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Maybe Sulla can make a new CCMT with a campaign system??

He has the coded and was thinking in a new project for CC.....utopia

#23: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:44 pm
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

On Drugs?? WHERE is the tool like that for post CC5?? Where is the QClone, for Vehicles modding, Weapons modding???? On Drugs?? Nah... I KNOW WTF am talking about dude....

Well, I disagree, me thinks you are clueless. One of the greatest joys of CCMT was the old JAVA based "tools" were not required. They were so "down and dirty" as we say in the trade. Hardly reliable either. And now you are bemoanig "where are our new tools?". Modern day progammers have more pride than the JAVA based hackers of the CC past.

Why don't you JOHNSILVER download NetBeans or something and take a hack at it yourself instead of squeeling like a stuck pig.

#24: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:54 am
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Quote:

Why don't you JOHNSILVER download NetBeans or something and take a hack at it yourself instead of squeeling like a stuck pig.

You call me clueless??? Getting on 10y since the "new" style of games came out and wondered why Matrix, or one of the gamers with software skills hadn't put one together. I've just gone back (for now) to CC5 and older titles to have to fun, tinkering around with what everyone else did and with what's available.. BGEdit, QClone and Freedeploy to a lesser extent.

#25: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 7:37 am
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

Getting on 10y since the "new" style of games came out and wondered why Matrix, or one of the gamers with software skills hadn't put one together. I've just gone back (for now) to CC5 and older titles to have to fun, tinkering around with what everyone else did and with what's available.. BGEdit, QClone and Freedeploy to a lesser extent.

Me thinks Matrix has already publically stated that they are not in the business to make tools to sponsor modders. They said they were in the business of developing game software. Go figure, eh?

So I find myself hoping that TBF will obsolete every CC game that came before it. And now I am completely on board with the approach Matrix has taken. NO multiplayer, NO campaign mode, and NO modding by addition. Idea

Perhaps that approach will obsolete threads like this one!

#26: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 9:05 am
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Am with you on one aspect.. Forget the multiplayer part, got tired of that one when moved on from CC and went to Combat Mission years ago. Combat Mission, the 1st one had a much better multiplayer setup all around back then.

Fail to see how not having campaigns is a positive, since as far as I know (not familiar with RTB) CCMT is the only title that they took them out of and then afterwards, like they realized it was a mistake.. Added them back again.

#27: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 10:59 am
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

Fail to see how not having campaigns is a positive, since as far as I know (not familiar with RTB) CCMT is the only title that they took them out of and then afterwards, like they realized it was a mistake.. Added them back again.

So, now you stoop to outright deceit. As Schrecken mentioned, they wanted us to have what the USMC was using. And I am guessing the USMC had no need for a campaign game. Idea

CCMT was derived from CCM (Close Combat Marines). You can find both games present in the Combat Camera area, so you can make your own comparisons.

Furthermore, COI doesn't exactly have a campaign game that is equivalent to what you get with CC4, CC5, WAR, TLD, etc. It is stuff like this where you earn your moniker of "clueless", despite your "extensive" experience that you keep telling us about.

#28: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 11:52 am
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Quote:

COI doesn't exactly have a campaign game that is equivalent to what you get with CC4, CC5, WAR, TLD, etc

Are you enjoying your child like tantrum here? THEN stating in the above quote.. NOTHING but the obvious?? OF COURSE the campaign mode in both COI and CC3 is different!! Anyone who has ever played them 1 time would see that!

#29: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 12:08 pm
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

since as far as I know (not familiar with RTB) CCMT is the only title that they took them out of ...

johnsilver wrote (View Post):

So now you confess you have never played COI or CC3 even one time. BTW, these are your quotes. And regarding "NOTHING but the obvious", me still thinks you are clueless.

#30: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: TheImperatorKnight,

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 12:12 pm
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Good to see my topic has been derailed again Stwa Wink

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the undynamic risk-like Close Combat strategic system is awful and needs replacing. I do think having a campaign mode is necessary, and I can imagine one where battlegroups (if they have vehicles and unobstructed) could move over multiple provinces and give "support" to other nearby battlegroups if they weren't engaged. Kinda the way the Panzer Corps system works. If several units surround an enemy unit, you gain bonuses to the attack, and you also have a chance of forcing the enemy to surrender.

First picture, imagine this is a new Close Combat strategic map and each hex is a Close Combat tactical map. In this case, the armoured battlegroup can move so many maps (indicated by the white hexes) and is going to move over three maps in one turn to engage the engineer battlegroup on the river map. Having something similar to this in CC would make the strategic system a lot more dynamic.

Second picture, the infantry attacks and wins against the artillery on the airfield, and because the artillery is surrounded by other units (even by it's own units) it can't retreat and is therefore forced to surrender. And because the friendly 12 strength battlegroup was next to the infantry, there were bonuses to the attack in the first place (in this case, initiative, which decides who fights first, but in Close Combat, it could be an additional artillery strike or perhaps the infantry are loaned a handful of tanks for the battle).

Also, just to point out, Panzer Corps is a series owned by Matrix, so it's not unreasonable to assume that a strategic system like this couldn't be created by them.

#31: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 12:37 pm
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TheImperatorKnight wrote (View Post):

Good to see my topic has been derailed again Stwa Wink

My bad, so my apologies (to you) for said derailment.

The Panzer Corp idea might work, but would be better as WEGO. My kids started pushing back on IGO/UGO about the time they reached the age of 12.

#32: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: TheImperatorKnight,

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 2:15 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

My bad, so my apologies (to you) for said derailment.

Nah, I expected this would happen. It always does Laughing

Stwa wrote (View Post):

The Panzer Corp idea might work, but would be better as WEGO. My kids started pushing back on IGO/UGO about the time they reached the age of 12.

I'll admit I had to look up the terms so for anyone not sure -

"WeGo is a turn-based style of gameplay where orders are given for both sides, and then executed simultaneously. During the execution phase, no player input is allowed." which is the way it currently works in the current Close Combat strategic system. "I go You go" is the system used in Panzer Corps.

I would say that the WeGo system makes a lot more sense. But you can adapt the Panzer Corps system to WeGo for Close Combat.

Ok because I'm really not a fan of the current strategic system and because I want to offer a solution and not just a complaint, I'm going to offer an example as to how the Close Combat strategic system could be improved using a more dynamic system I suggested in my previous post. Here's the theoretical dynamic Close Combat system -

Rules:
1. Motorized Battlegroups can move up to 3 hexes whilst non-motorized can move 1
2. A Battlegroup not connected to a supply depot is classed as being "Surrounded" and will receive no supplies
3. Surrounded battlegroups that have less Victory Locations at the end of a battle (because they lost the battle) will also have a 50% chance of completely surrendering to the enemy and removed from the game
4. Non-engaged battlegroups will give "support" to battlegroups in touching hexes in the form of additional units and off-site mortars and artillery
5. Support units can only be given to units if they're connected by Victory Locations
6. Support off-site artillery and mortars can be given regardless if there's a connection

Ok, let's see what happened in the picture above.

3 attempted to encircle 4 and move to where 8 is now (moving 3 hexes). But 2 also moved into the same province (WeGo) and so blocked 3's path. Also 1 moved forwards, so now 3 is totally surrounded and cannot move or receive supplies. Worse, if 3 loses his battle with 2 (loses any Victory Locations on the tactical map) there's a chance 3 will surrender because it cannot retreat.

Plus, to make things worse for the German player, 4 is still in supply from 1 2 and 6 and so will not surrender unless it loses all Victory Locations on the tactical map. If 2, 5, 6 or 7 lose all Victory Locations they can withdraw to non-occupied hexes. 4 cannot withdraw because you cannot have 2 units in the same province and so would be forced to surrender too (in this example, they've technically already fought)

8 will give 2 extra support because it's next to them and also isn't engaged in combat. 8 will send 2 an extra platoon of soldiers to help fight with the tanks, and also an extra artillery strike. 1 will not be able to send infantry to fight because 3 controls the Victory Locations on that side of the map. But 1 will still send an additional artillery strike to both 2 and 4. 8 will also reinforce 6 with artillery and infantry. Whereas 3 5 and 7 cannot support each other because they're all engaged.

----

In my opinion, this would make the game more interesting, and give the strategic map more depth, without taking away from the tactical combat. In fact, the tactical combat will be improved with the additional support the battlegroups can receive from nearby non-engaged units. It will also allow a true breakthrough to occur as a motorized unit could theoretically drive three provinces into the rear of the enemy and perhaps even cut off supplies.

The only downside is that you'd need more maps in the game than you currently get in order to make this system as dynamic as possible. Wait... that's not a downside! More maps please!

#33: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:20 pm
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My guess is that CCMT does not have a campaign mode because the developers were unable to figure out how to move up to 10 players to the next map and/or the Marine Corps didnot require one. But if we want to find out we should just ask Sulla shouldn't we?
Anyway, I own CCMT too but don't like to play it for several reasons, maps are too big, infantry take too long to get from A to B, it does not have a campaign mode and probably more. What I do like is the modding potential in the sense that it is possible to more accurately recreate battles because of the editable deployment zones and what units where to put.

#34: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:28 pm
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I agree with TIK that a hex based stratmap with the features of common hex based games would greatly improve the strategic map experience. I do need to point out that right now we can also create a hex based stratmap for CC and that we can make battle groups jump 1 or more maps. You just need to create more exit vl's in all directions. When you occupy exit vl's that take you 1 or 2 maps down the stratmap you can choose what map to move to. But we can not limit this to certain types of battle groups. This is theory of course because although I have considered this for a mod I have not actually tried it yet.

#35: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 10:53 pm
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Pete wrote (View Post):

My guess is that CCMT does not have a campaign mode because the developers were unable to figure out how to move up to 10 players to the next map and/or the Marine Corps didnot require one. But if we want to find out we should just ask Sulla shouldn't we?

The USMC probably followed a standard protocol for acquisitions of any kind where they (the USMC) stated their requirements, and then requested a proposal. This RFP probably did not include provisions for a campaign game or mode.

Good campaign game ideas come and go. Remember Gary Childress. He advocated a hex map, but for use on handhelds.

#36: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 11:12 pm
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Putting together a campaign mode for CCMT was easy. I even went so far as to develop map schematics for the various theaters. Here is one for the advance on Cherbourg. But, there is one for all of Normandy too. I did the same for the Battle of the Bulge and Omaha Beach.

It was a lot of fun making these, and the campaign game is not buggy like the CC varients.

#37: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 2:25 am
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why cc2redux didn't take off with the CC2 crowd as they were 100% into single multiplayer battles? why didn't they got excited as hell and then proceeded to revitalize the multiplayer scene?

Maybe CCMT arrived too late when there was no one that played CC2, Or were already used to the quirks and looks of CC2 and couldn't move on.

I think it was the fact that you can't issue points to a side to somehow limit them in what you can pick. That's the real killer of this game IMO. Sure you can have like a gentlemen agreement and choose only infantry of certain kind etc but really, you need a system built into it to make it desirable for the people to actually want to play it competitively.

#38: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 2:45 am
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Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):

I think it was the fact that you can't issue points to a side to somehow limit them in what you can pick. That's the real killer of this game IMO. Sure you can have like a gentlemen agreement and choose only infantry of certain kind etc but really, you need a system built into it to make it desirable for the people to actually want to play it competitively.

Hi Kanov, I hope you are doing well.

First of all, a lot of people that did get CCMT, still don't understand its capabilities. First of all, USMC used an officer that would design multiplayer scenarios for its training center participants. The designer of any scenario has the ability to LOCK that scenario, so that the participants cannot make changes to the teams that have been assigned to them. This can also be done with CCMT.

In their circulars about CCM, the USMC reminded everyone that CCM was for training and tactics, not for competition. In fact, the initial release of CCMT, did not show or in some cases, even use victory locations, because the USMC did not stress victory locations in their training sessions. The USMC explained that small unit battlefields and battles were more fluid and dynamic. Stressing victory locations might result in a lack of dicilpline that originates from the human behavior of competition.

#39: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:23 am
—
The main issue with the community and CCMT resides in the resident players themselves. CCS members just refuse to accept the fact that what motivates them to a CC title, is the arcade nature of that title.

Even, the game designers can get into the act. For GTC, a totally arcade version of a flame Croc was provided, while the designers, and others described to CCS members that its in-game attributes were grounded in historical fact. Of course, most of THAT turned out to be BS.

Gamers don't just want CC to be an arcade game. They insist on it.

Last edited by Stwa on Sat May 09, 2015 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total

#40: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:40 am
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Even Matrix and its developers made CCMT into an arcade game Exclamation

Thats right, USMC would not allow Matrix to use its weapon data in CCMT, so before the initial release of CCMT, developers were changing the weapons to insane levels of lethality.

Why? Because EVERYONE would get a kick out of that. In some cases you could win the scenario, just using off map artillery barages alone.

#41: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 4:54 am
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Razz

(to the spammers)

Thread was invisible for a while.

#42: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:06 am
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So, as an alternative to using Panzer Corp as a front-end campaign game, maybe you could use TOAW instead.

It is not exactly WEGO either, but it rocks.

Maybe, you just skip the "tactical battles" too. Its just an abstraction, right?

#43: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:28 pm
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OMG, has this thread been abandoned. Question

Some people (like McClaire) tried to implement some features into the CC series to slow down the arcade creep invading the CC series. One of the best features was instantly labeled "Girly Soldiers" by the community at large.

This situation became one of the most humorous arguments in the history of the franchise. Girly soldiers did alot to create parity between human players and thier AI opponent. Remember, at the time most human players were confessing that they wanted to only do single player.

So, Girly Soldiers created a situation were human players might not be able to run their soldiers all over the map. Or rush 10 teams of 7 soldiers each into a single house or structure. The problem was that if soldiers were fired upon, they might hit the dirt. In other words, they would stop running. And that was unacceptable to the community.

So, since the community mostly played against the AI, what they were really saying was, WE demand that we can CRUSH the AI by using the same tactics the Zulus used at Islanwandu. Never mind that the game is set in WW2.

So, the developers water down Girly Soldiers. Then, what does the community do?

They complain about the AI. Exclamation

#44: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 11:22 pm
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Great observation Stwa. For COI I would prefer dropping "Girly Soldiers"

I much prefer the classic CC3 style. We played for years without this "feature" and the game was fine. Now to have to constantly give repeated orders to every team over and over just to move a short distance. It gets annoying. I hate it most for H2H play when time is short and you just can't manage to give repeat orders to ever damn unit on the map every second of the game. Laughing

#45: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 11:54 pm
—

US_Brake wrote (View Post):

It [Girly Soldiers] gets annoying. I hate it most for H2H play when time is short and you just can't manage to give repeat orders to ever damn unit on the map every second of the game. Laughing

My high school baseball coaches defined insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again, while achieving the same result". Laughing

Thirty years later I heard my sons high school baseball coaches preaching the same thing to their team.

CC has recieved some serious reviews down through the years. Many of these reviews mention and praise the psycological aspect of troop behaivor built into the CC franchise.

But most players demand an arcade game. They insist that troops follow ALL orders they give, no matter the circumstances on the battlefield, and regardless if these orders might result in the immediate death of the troops receiving the orders.

Most players DEMAND that these psycological truths be removed from the game, so that CC can take its place in the arcade hall of fame.

#46: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:13 am
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US_Brake wrote (View Post):

I hate it [Girly Soldiers] most for H2H play when time is short ...

Then don't use a time limit. Time limts just contribute to the acrade atmosphere.

Players have learned that seconds before the game is going to end to make a MAD DASH for the victory locations in an effort to "win" the scenario.

So, they want game soldiers to understand this aspect of gaming competition, and act according to the human players wishes. Laughing

Ridiculous. Exclamation

#47: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:40 am
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I agree the psychological aspect of troop behavior built into the CC franchise makes the game really great.

It is however, really difficult to do a proper Banzai charge with "Girly Soldiers."

"Girly Soldiers" feature would work better for the overall game if the troops only took cover when a team member was hit or killed while moving (not just fired upon). Soldier have to move under fire and they often prefer to take the chance and continue running while under fire to reach better cover than to lay down in an exposed position that spells doom.

The psychological aspect of troop behavior was also originally intended to be balanced. Some behavior was supposed to help the player win the battle.

#48: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:59 am
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I am fortunate as a CC3/COI player to have good time options. CC3/COI gives the option of no time limit or 1-99 minutes.

#49: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:02 am
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US_Brake wrote (View Post):

"Girly Soldiers" feature would work better for the overall game if the troops only took cover when a team member was hit or killed while moving (not just fired upon). Soldier have to move under fire and they often prefer to take the chance and continue running while under fire to reach better cover than to lay down in an exposed position that spells doom.

Right, but what you mention IS built into the game.

I have posted a ton of screenshots of banzai charges using CCMT (that retained Girly Soldiers). In fact I featured an entire thread on Okinawa on CCMT where on every map I performed a Banzai charge. Earlier in the thread I showed a charge going at Dog Green that included EVERY allied soldier. Guess I need to upload that pic again!

So, it can and does happen, just not when any ole player wants it to happen. And in my game soldiers don't always hit the dirt when they are simply fired upon. Their training and experience matters into the equation.

Over the years, and just as recent as a few days ago, players have bemoaned, "Why wont the AI attack my fortified troop positions?" After all, It is so much fun to waste silly AI attackers.

The AI will only make such charges when they have outstanding training and experience. I would laugh and think the opposite would be true. With more experience and training you would think that would cause troops to NOT make foolish attacks.

#50: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:09 am
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Interesting point Stwa. I will have to pay closer attention and see how my experienced troops are moving under fire. Most of the troops I have been using for testing ops are low quality reg teams that take cover when the wind blows.

#51: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:47 am
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I will be very interested in your conclusions. When you start your charge off (100 meters away), then everyone usually stands up and gets going, but as you close (50 meters away) troops may hit the dirt, and I do like you. I repeat the order. You can test this on Dog Green.

Me thinks, the AI orders detected troops to go belly down, and then crawl toward the objective. Which is smart, but not much fun for the defender. The cover attirbutes in Reg CCMT would have some troops crawling undetected to within 5 meters of a defended position, usually in sand. Go figure. So, even I changed this attribute for sand. It was even bad using high grass in WW2 maps, where to discover the locations of these prone enemies, I would have to drive a tank over the area in which they were hidden. That seemed silly.

#52: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:13 am
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Ok, the charge is off. The Germans are freaked.

I rubber banded 2 units at the top of the map and repeated the "Move Fast" order. So, I repeated the order ONLY one time. Exclamation

Last edited by Stwa on Tue May 12, 2015 3:30 am; edited 1 time in total

#53: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:22 am
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Notice most everyone makes it to the sea wall or very close to it. Of the teams at the bottom of the map, all of them make it to the seawall. The teams in the middle of the map, made it about half way.

#54: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 5:10 am
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You can even make this assault using nothing but tanks. The Germans do have a pair of AT guns.

The only thing bad that happens is a few tanks report that "cant reach target" but that is because they were deployed with a tank trap directly to their front. So, a few of those tanks were wasted by the AT guns.

#55: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 5:14 am
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The tanks are off and moving. The tank traps do cause a few problems for some of them. But I didn't notice any messages that the tanks were taking cover from enemy fire.

#56: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 5:20 am
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The tanks have the Germans squeeling for a truce. I have ordered a few tanks into the beach exit. Notice that there was NO crawl of death and NO pathing issues in this scenario.

#57: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:12 am
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Whit all mods do you have the same result Stwa????

have you try whit other mods??

#58: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:07 am
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I have only used CCMT stuff, and I am not sure what other mods you are thinking about. Apart from a few map mods I did using Mafi's 5CC, all I became over the years was just a maker of icons. It is sad, but true.

But what Brake is talking about does happen during the infantry charge. It happens several times as each unit messages that they are aborting their re-deployment (the Move Fast order). But since I am charging all units, the Germans cant stop all of them, so the mass charge proceeds until they can close with the German infantry.

Check out another charge. If you look close, you will notice the American force morale declining, but me thinks this is due to fatique more than casualties.

#59: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:57 pm
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Here I demonstrate the "crawl of death". I covered this extensively in a huge thread I worked on many years ago.

In this match I only crawl with my infantry. I am commanding the Germans. But notice the Germans are not taking hardly any casualties when they crawl. Why? Because they are not crawling one unit after another, toward a predictable region of the map, like a victory location.

Now, check out the Americans on the roads south of Baugnez. They have been running and crawling but also getting wasted as they move along each road. So, why are the Americans getting wasted? Because I have played this scenario before, many times, and the Americans usually move to Baugnez using these roads. So I have placed a tank just north of the village and it is wasting everyone.

#60: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:54 pm
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I said that this aspects of soldier appeare for example in cc2redux stwa??

#61: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:57 pm
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No, I am using one of the small soldier mods. BTW I stopped using the CC2 stuff after I had upscaled a few maps. Kanov was right, they are just too green. Idea

Brake said that Girly Soldiers would not allow a BANZAI CHARGE. Confused

So, I thought to myself, WAIT!, I have done many Banzai charges. IN ALL VERSIONS OF CCMT. Idea

(DAK_Legion)

Last edited by Stwa on Wed May 13, 2015 3:53 am; edited 1 time in total

#62: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:51 am
—

US_Brake wrote (View Post):

I much prefer the classic CC3 style. We played for years without this "feature" and the game was fine.

Translation: I like CC when the psycological soldier constraints are turned off. You know, an arcade game.

US_Brake wrote (View Post):

Now to have to constantly give repeated orders to every team over and over just to move a short distance. It gets annoying. I hate it most for H2H play when time is short and you just can't manage to give repeat orders to ever damn unit on the map every second of the game. Laughing

Isn't this just a wee bit of an exaggeration. Idea

So lets say there are 15 units under Brake's command. Lets say there is 1 minute or 60 seconds until time expires. AND the mad dash for the VLs is on.

So 15 x 60 = 900 orders that Brake has to issue in the last minute of gameplay. Razz

#63: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 4:04 am
—

Stwa wrote (View Post):

Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):

Hi Kanov, I hope you are doing well.

Thanks, I'm doing fine I hope you too.

Stwa wrote (View Post):

First of all, a lot of people that did get CCMT, still don't understand its capabilities. First of all, USMC used an officer that would design multiplayer scenarios for its training center participants. The designer of any scenario has the ability to LOCK that scenario, so that the participants cannot make changes to the teams that have been assigned to them. This can also be done with CCMT.

But multiplayer guys want to be able to design a scenario where multiple choices of units can be made, not to have a static scenario where always the same forces are used.

I want to be given certain amount of points and then choose a King tiger and a sniper if I want to, or next round go all infantry, that is where the fun of single battle multiplayer experience comes IMO.

Stwa wrote (View Post):

In their circulars about CCM, the USMC reminded everyone that CCM was for training and tactics, not for competition. In fact, the initial release of CCMT, did not show or in some cases, even use victory locations, because the USMC did not stress victory locations in their training sessions. The USMC explained that small unit battlefields and battles were more fluid and dynamic. Stressing victory locations might result in a lack of dicilpline that originates from the human behavior of competition.

but CCMT was released to the common people who want to have fun, not only for the Marines...

#64: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 4:32 am
—

Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):

But multiplayer guys want to be able to design a scenario where multiple choices of units can be made, not to have a static scenario where always the same forces are used. I want to be given certain amount of points and then choose a King tiger and a sniper if I want to, or next round go all infantry, that is where the fun of single battle multiplayer experience comes IMO.

Sure, I understand that, so we are different. I have never played CCMT multiplayer, but I have played single player. And the human player can make edits to the Battlegroup so long as the scenario is not locked. So I can have it both ways.

Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):

but CCMT was released to the common people who want to have fun, not only for the Marines...

I am not sure if CCMT was meant for the Marines. A more accurate statement would be as follows:

CSO and Matrix released CCMT to the common people so they might enjoy the small unit tactical trainer that the USMC had been using for years.

It is too bad you could not have fun with that. I have had tons of fun with CCMT since its release. The whole tie-in with the USMC makes it all the more fun for moi. Competition is just not part of the equation.

#65: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 1:26 am
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So, over time I have gradually learned TOAW. It has a learning curve.

But, to discover just how lame the CC game campaigns are, just play some other games that are serious. No timer bug in this game. Idea

So now days, I just dont do real time games that much. It was fun while it lasted.

#66: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Antony_nz,

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:37 am
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Haha. Great video TIK.
Stwa said he is keen to play !Multiplayer!

Rtb has multiple airstrikes. A great feature. I have wanted this for a long time.

I played a Utah mod that took buildings windows into account with LOS.

#67: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: TheImperatorKnight,

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:43 pm
—

Antony_nz wrote (View Post):

Haha. Great video TIK.
Stwa said he is keen to play !Multiplayer!

Rtb has multiple airstrikes. A great feature. I have wanted this for a long time.

I played a Utah mod that took buildings windows into account with LOS.

Thanks Antony! :)

I'm surprised multiple off site artillery and air strikes isn't in the other games since CCMT. How is this not a standard thing?

Do you like the LOS-through-windows-only thing? I can kinda see why they didn't put that in the other games, especially since you can't arrange your teams so well to aim out windows, but I do think it's good overall.

#68: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Antony_nz,

Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 4:24 pm
—
[quote="TheImperatorKnight";p="80590"]

Antony_nz wrote (View Post):

Do you like the LOS-through-windows-only thing? I can kinda see why they didn't put that in the other games, especially since you can't arrange your teams so well to aim out windows, but I do think it's good overall.

awww yea..
It worked very well.

But at the same time. I find multiplayer hard enough. And its not like a being in a building is a unrealistic game changer. I believe the advantage of being in a building is usually balanced in Close Combat.
And the window system does restrict view... And because you cant control the position of every individual soldier. I think having no window system reflects the fact soldiers are using there initiative to get a shot..
I just use my imagination. Just like how you have to imagine all the floors are being used accordingly on multistory buildings.

#69: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 9:48 pm
—
Maybe you can test this.....

http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/ccmt/ccmt.html

WALK THROUGT WALL FOR CCMT By Captain

#70: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: TheImperatorKnight,

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 6:30 pm
—

DAK_Legion wrote (View Post):

Maybe you can test this.....

http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/ccmt/ccmt.html

WALK THROUGT WALL FOR CCMT By Captain

Interesting! I'll check it out - although I'm assuming it'll just be the same as the other CC's.

Also, CC2 Redux is pretty good! The battles seem to flow a lot nicer than they did in CC2.

@Anthony. Yeah, you're right that it's a "either or" sort of thing. I guess it comes down to preference. Maybe it should be an option in the realism settings of the games, below "Always Obey Orders"

#71: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 6:47 pm
—

TheImperatorKnight wrote (View Post):

I'm surprised multiple off site artillery and air strikes isn't in the other games since CCMT. How is this not a standard thing?

That is one of the mysteries of CC which I have never understood. Each release should have built on top of the previous and features should be able to be turned on or off for the campaign or players preference.

#72: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: DoktorPaj, Location: Norrköping

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 8:43 pm
—

Tejszd wrote (View Post):

TheImperatorKnight wrote (View Post):

I'm surprised multiple off site artillery and air strikes isn't in the other games since CCMT. How is this not a standard thing?

I agree so much with this. They've gotten so much usable feedback and ideas from the cc players since even before Matrix started giving out the new CCs, and while they've done some smaller changes in every version they gave out, they never actually put all of them together for one game. It's like they are pretending they are painting works of art, they make one game in a particular way which does contain a few good features but then the next game lacks those features and they implemented something completely different instead.

Instead of having any actual development in the series we now have several slightly different games that all have a few semi-compatible elements in them, even though none of them stands out as more advanced or superior to the rest of them.

I don't get the idea behind that.

#73: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:05 pm
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DoktorPaj wrote (View Post):

Instead of having any actual development in the series we now have several slightly different games that all have a few semi-compatible elements in them, even though none of them stands out as more advanced or superior to the rest of them. I don't get the idea behind that.

And along the way it seems they would just cut and paste some of the code line to make the next game, re-introducing past bugs over and over again.

#74: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: mooxe,

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:52 am
—
This was pretty funny...

#75: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:12 pm
—

mooxe wrote (View Post):

This was pretty funny...

It is the type of "funny" that makes one want to barf. Exclamation

While I have mostly enjoyed single player, the problem with single player games can be summed with 3 screen shots. It can never be fixed.

#76: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:33 pm
—
Back in the day, one of my favorite activities was exposing the mindless AI.

5 Sherman tanks vs 5 50mm anti tank guns. Apart from the fact that the human player performs the deployment for the guns, the keyboard and mouse are never touched during the game.

Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Modern Tactics

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