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#1: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:52 pm
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Polish government officials showed displeasure at Russia over the Ukraine by destroying their WW2 monuments located in Poland.. Looks like Russia is now outraged:

Russian monuments

#2: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:56 am
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

Polish government officials showed displeasure at Russia over the Ukraine by destroying their WW2 monuments located in Poland.. Looks like Russia is now outraged:

Now that the Poles are firmly aligned with the West, they are looking forward to all becoming part of the LGBT community and inviting Muslim asylum seekers into Poland by the millions. Meanwhile, David Cameron remains in the closet.

Link

#3: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: vobbnobb,

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:40 am
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Poland and Russia have been going at it before WW2 I guess, haven't had the time to pick up some books on some pre ww2 events between the two, but would like to.

#4: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:06 pm
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[quote="johnsilver";p="81071"]Polish government officials showed displeasure at Russia over the Ukraine by destroying their WW2 monuments located in Poland.. Looks like Russia is now outraged:

The Poles helped liberate their own country by being part of the Red Army. Really it's just more thoughtless behavior by those who didn't fight in WW2.

#5: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:57 pm
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Quote:

Wow.. Saying they should have just been more culturally sensitive to every one's point of view? Like.. Instead of tearing down the rusted and crumbling down old monument? Give it a fresh, rainbow colored coat of paint and for good measure? Put up the Hammer & sickle.. Stars & Bars.. Republic Flag of Poland..

Anyone who comes along could jab one in the ground so as his/her/it's feelings are not hurt.

#6: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Pzt_Crackwise, Location: Switzerland

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:30 pm
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Poland has been devastated by the wars it fought against Kingdom of Sweden and Tsardom of Russia back in the 17th century. Since then they have had conflicts with Tsardom of Russia and then Soviet Union almost continuously.

#7: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:57 pm
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johnsilver wrote (View Post):

Wow.. Saying they should have just been more culturally sensitive to every one's point of view? Like.. Instead of tearing down the rusted and crumbling down old monument? Give it a fresh, rainbow colored coat of paint and for good measure? Put up the Hammer & sickle.. Stars & Bars.. Republic Flag of Poland..Anyone who comes along could jab one in the ground so as his/her/it's feelings are not hurt.

Perhaps, but Poland has been mired in the East/West thingy for centuries. And now days, alignment with the West means you must become gay and you must embrace Islam. Not that Islam is that bad. Being gay is no longer optional (a choice) like it once used to be. Resistance is futile. Razz

#8: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:15 pm
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Pzt_Crackwise wrote (View Post):

Poland has been devastated by the wars it fought against Kingdom of Sweden and Tsardom of Russia back in the 17th century. Since then they have had conflicts with Tsardom of Russia and then Soviet Union almost continuously.

Lets not forget that they also fought Nazi Germany and these monuments represented that. Have they also ripped down other monuments from previous conflicts - WW1 Tannenberg Memorial in Poland ( German ). Or even destroyed the Concentration Camps that are tourist attractions within Poland ? Sadly Poland is known as the door mat to Russia - you have to walk over it to get at Russia.

#9: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:21 am
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Pzt_Crackwise wrote (View Post):

I meant no disrespect toward the Polish people with my jest. Embarassed

Which Polish leader, early in the war said Poland, throughout history just had plain bad luck with allies? Was it one of the leaders (western backed) in exile in England?

#10: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Siwy89,

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:35 am
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In nowadays Poland, soviet soldiers (which were "liberating" Poland) are considered as invaders, even worse than Wehrmacht. At first they were cooperating with polish resistance fighters, then when NKWD came, partisans were executed. My grandma told me about soviet's atrocities- they were raping, drunking and stealing all they can get.

Maybe now you can understand why there are soviet's monuments falling in Poland. Polish soldiers that were representing pre-war goverment were fighting with allies in Africa, Italy, France, Holland, Germany. Polish people's army that fought besides soviets was an invention of Stalin only to bring Poland to communist side. This is really complex, but if you are interested I encourage you to read about it.

BTW Russian goverment refuses to send us back wreckage of presidential Tupolev (catastrophy in 2010) and yet they have impudence about telling us what to do in our own country.

Finally, to be clear I don't want to make some anti russian movement here, I have some friends that are Russians and I like them very much, but ordinary people must be separate from government actions and complex history. As for Islam and gays- 0,1 % of Poland's inhabitants are muslim, gay marriage is not recognized so I honestly dont know what you are saying Stwa.

#11: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:58 am
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Siwy89 wrote (View Post):

As for Islam and gays- 0,1 % of Poland's inhabitants are muslim, gay marriage is not recognized so I honestly dont know what you are saying Stwa.

But all that is going to change. This change is the price Poland must pay its Western Allies. Before long Poland will be just like Holland, except for the high income thing.

#12: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:54 am
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

Siwy89 wrote (View Post):

As for Islam and gays- 0,1 % of Poland's inhabitants are muslim, gay marriage is not recognized so I honestly dont know what you are saying Stwa.

But all that is going to change. This change is the price Poland must pay its Western Allies. Before long Poland will be just like Holland, except for the high income thing.

Yeah.. Change is good, but the liberal ideals being brought in sometimes suck the last couple of decades. The newer, eastern bloc countries really should pick and choose what to incorporate. Cut out the decadent parts.

#13: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:02 am
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Siwy89 wrote (View Post):

In nowadays Poland, soviet soldiers (which were "liberating" Poland) are considered as invaders, even worse than Wehrmacht. At first they were cooperating with polish resistance fighters, then when NKWD came, partisans were executed. My grandma told me about soviet's atrocities- they were raping, drunking and stealing all they can get.

Maybe now you can understand why there are soviet's monuments falling in Poland. Polish soldiers that were representing pre-war goverment were fighting with allies in Africa, Italy, France, Holland, Germany. Polish people's army that fought besides soviets was an invention of Stalin only to bring Poland to communist side. This is really complex, but if you are interested I encourage you to read about it.

BTW Russian goverment refuses to send us back wreckage of presidential Tupolev (catastrophy in 2010) and yet they have impudence about telling us what to do in our own country.

Finally, to be clear I don't want to make some anti russian movement here, I have some friends that are Russians and I like them very much, but ordinary people must be separate from government actions and complex history. As for Islam and gays- 0,1 % of Poland's inhabitants are muslim, gay marriage is not recognized so I honestly dont know what you are saying Stwa.

I am amazed that people in Poland would think that the USSR era would be worse than the Nazi German era. Considering at least 1 in 5 Poles died during WW2, concentration camps, death of almost all of Polish Jews - approx 3,000,000 and in 1945 reduced to 45,000, roving death squads, enforced hunger, lots of young non jewish men drafted into German army and many more things.Yes the USSR was oppressive, aggressive and ruthless. But they were never a match for Nazi Germany.

I guess with time people see things differently. Just like the rise again of nationalism in Europe today, old sins are forgotten. Also the old German monuments to WW1 still stand in Poland while USSR ones are pulled down.

#14: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: kweniston, Location: Netherlands

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:39 am
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I thought Dutch anti-Russian propaganda was bad, but the Polish media are really incredible. The Russia of today is being completely mixed up with the Soviet regime, let alone all the other BS concerning the Ukraine.

By rewriting history in this way, the world is being slowly prepared for a WWIII.

#15: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:59 am
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kweniston wrote (View Post):

I thought Dutch anti-Russian propaganda was bad, but the Polish media are really incredible. The Russia of today is being completely mixed up with the Soviet regime, let alone all the other BS concerning the Ukraine.

By rewriting history in this way, the world is being slowly prepared for a WWIII.

Agreed

#16: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Siwy89,

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:16 am
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I don't like it either how values are treated in what's today western civilization. Poles have mostly conservative mentality and I very doubt it that it will change in e.g. a generation. Republic of Poland is inhabited by 95% people of the same religion, ethnicity and language and we would like it to stay that way.

300 christian families are to be brought to Poland as refugees from Syria and this is very controversial topic in my country, not to say about 2000 muslims that we have to accept because UE told us we must do it. We don't have good social policy so Poland is really transit country for muslims, they want to go mostly for Germany, Denmark, Sweden and so on.

As for comparison- I compared soviets to wehrmacht, not to nazi Germany in general. 16 % of Poland's population just perished, mostly because of the nazis.

Kweniston- actually I dont support US and UE point of view about war in Ukraine, for me it is more about conflict of influence between US and Russia so who is right? Nobody. Polish media are brainwashing people with anti russian propaganda and I'm sick of that too, but when I write about soviets killing polish partisans it is not rewriting history- these are facts.

It is the same thing that we have to remind (mainly Americans) that there were no polish deaths camps but Nazi german extermination camps- this example of rewriting history is very dangerous.

#17: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:15 pm
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As for comparison- I compared soviets to wehrmacht, not to nazi Germany in general. 16 % of Poland's population just perished, mostly because of the nazis.

Using only Wehrmacht not Nazi' Germany would be creating a false truth in it's self. Wehrmacht were just a piece of Polish Occupation history during WW2. Many cases of ordinary soldiers taking part in atrocities along with SS and death squads who were responsible for the greater part. Also do a little checking on the figure of 16pc as two books I have read say in approximate terms - 20pc minimum or 1 in 5. A person called Peter Chen gives figures of 15pc but misses out persons like slave labourers, displaced person deaths and persons with no official identifications - poor and Gypies etc. Rewriting history again.

When you talk about how Soviets killed Partisans - what would you expect. They are Partisans / rebels / militia. Trying to overthrow a Govt.

#18: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Siwy89,

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:57 pm
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I agree that nazi war crimes were much more devastating but that doesnt make red army a true liberating force and that was my point. Of course wehrmacht did participate in war crimes but on different scale than SS.

I live approximately 8 km from Auschwitz-Birkenau, in early 1945 Germans were retreating from that area and a bunch of ukrainian volunteers from SS-Galizien decided to burn my grandfather's village and kill all inhabitants. They didn't do it because of the intervention of wehrmacht colonel.

For me it was a difference between SS and Wehrmacht.

Polish partizans were (mostly) members of Armia Krajowa, military structure representing polish goverment on exile- they were rebels against nazis not soviets, but of course for Stalin they pose significant threat for his commies plans. They were trying to re-establish pre war polish goverment but that didn't happen. Ever. Period of nearly 50 years of USSR occupation began.

#19: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: kweniston, Location: Netherlands

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:33 pm
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And that is the point. Communism is still fresh in the memory, so it is very easy to transpose those bad memories onto the current populations in the West to induce a fear of Russia. I recently attended a small conference here in Holland where several senior newspaper editors were present (topic was MH17 and the role of the media), and they specifically stated they have never seen the level of propaganda so bad, it's even worse than in the days of the (previous) Cold War. That confirmed my own opinion of the matter. Very dangerous times we live in, it feels like a interbellum period, waiting for the next big one.

#20: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:00 pm
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Some things never change at CCS. When you get one or more Europeans posting in a thread the conversations eventually turns to communism, or fascism, or Nazis, or all of the above.

The West has moved away from all that. It is a [Brave] New World Order, and now on face book, you can identify yourself as 1 of 44 possible genders. Going forward, the idea is to fake mate with all the genders. If you do not choose homosexuality, the West will make your life miserable.

#21: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: kweniston, Location: Netherlands

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:29 pm
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Apart from the civil war, the US had never had a war on their own soil, while Europe has been torn with it through their history. That's the difference in mind set: experience in your own backyard.

#22: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:16 am
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Polish partizans were (mostly) members of Armia Krajowa, military structure representing polish goverment on exile- they were rebels against nazis not soviets, but of course for Stalin they pose significant threat for his commies plans. They were trying to re-establish pre war polish goverment but that didn't happen. Ever. Period of nearly 50 years of USSR occupation began.[/quote]

Do you really think for a minute that liberating Soviet Forces ( Polish inclusive ) would for a minute allow a Govt in exile to take over. Also going by what you are saying about Occupation of Poland then I guess Germany is still under Occupation to this day by US forces. Who also did kill opposition members in partisans groups post WW2 - RAF and the like. Not everyone sees the Soviets liberators but some do of Germans sadly to their mistake. The lessons of old still need to be learned by another generation I guess.

Also not all SS were mass murders either. But 1 in 5 Poles dead during WW2 says it all.

#23: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: vobbnobb,

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:11 am
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What did the Nazis get out of invading Poland anyway?? There is nothing there. A strategic location maybe? were any ww2 factories setup there for parts or was it just another "lebensraum" such as France.

#24: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: kweniston, Location: Netherlands

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:37 am
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vobbnobb wrote (View Post):

What did the Nazis get out of invading Poland anyway?? There is nothing there. A strategic location maybe? were any ww2 factories setup there for parts or was it just another "lebensraum" such as France.

I’ve read some new information recently (must look up the link again), in which it was suggested the British performed a false flag operation on Poland, suggesting to the Germans that the Polish were ready to attack Germany. In this way, they prevented an immient attack by the Germans on the UK, and bought time. There are more interesting stories coming loose from the archives. Such as the way the Bank of England helped sell the stolen Czechoslovak gold for nazi Germany.

The more I know about history, the more I realize it is being rewritten all the time, and in real-time. This fact should make everyone cautious about news and especially when it considers geopolitics. All is fair in love and war, including non-stop propaganda.

This is what my country has come to now: http://rt.com/news/269314-anti-russian-propaganda-netherlands/.

#25: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:27 pm
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kweniston wrote (View Post):

This is what my country has come to now: http://rt.com/news/269314-anti-russian-propaganda-netherlands/.

#26: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:41 am
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[quote="Pete";p="81158"]

kweniston wrote (View Post):

This is what my country has come to now: http://rt.com/news/269314-anti-russian-propaganda-netherlands/.

OMG. A pupil's textbook displaying a newspaper cartoon. Only in your country. Thank God we are not in the same country.
Funny though that although you have been accusing free media of propaganda against Russia, you are referring to the Russia Today website which is a Russian state funded propaganda medium. Perhaps you googled for Ancilla Tilia , who is quoted in the article?

Hey, if it's true I guess it doesn't matter what media printed it - RT, CNN etc. However lets just keep in mind that European and US medias are little different themselves. Example - 90pc of all US media is owned by 6 Multinat Corps that in turn receive the majority of all US Military and Reconstruction contracts. They have a vested interest in tainted truths. ie how US and European media failed to print the truth over the illegal invasion of Iraq - WMDs and Al Qeada in Iraq prior to the invasion. Even though the truth was know to them as many experts voiced the truth well in advance.

#27: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:02 am
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Truth is relative. Truth is colourized by our daily experiences, our heritage, our society, our upbringing and all other things that we are exposed to. To claim that particular media represent a tainted truth is stating the obvious. This is different from being propagandistic. It is the very nature of many media, including news media, of being opinion-forming. It is up to the news consumers to choose exposure to a news medium that meets their personal preferences.
As for cartoons in schoolbooks: in my country they are intended to engage in subjective discussions about world events. They are not generally used to present off the shelve opinions, which is what the RT article seems to suggest.

#28: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:51 am
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As for cartoons in schoolbooks: in my country they are intended to engage in subjective discussions about world events. They are not generally used to present off the shelve opinions, which is what the RT article seems to suggest.[/quote]

So they aren't intended to tell the truth. Let alone explain the truth to a new generation. I guess that's kweniston was suggesting in his post about Dutch media and you are confirming that. End of the day every good news item is someones opinion backed up with facts and good investigative journalism not scaremongering little kids with propaganda WW2 Nazi Germany style. Sadly ignoring whether it's Dutch, Russian or American propaganda littles very much. Currently the West has embarked upon a campaign of disinformation aimed at countries with differing views, cultures and economies to theirs. Iraq - WMD's, Syria - Sarin gas, Venezuela, Russia, China, Iran and many others.

I just say look at countries foreign policies to see who the real aggressors are - 75 countries attacked in individual conflicts by US and many of those by GB and NATO and or UN countries. Don't get me wrong some are warranted but most aren't.

#29: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: johnsilver, Location: Florida

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:55 pm
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Quote:

I just say look at countries foreign policies to see who the real aggressors are

That include Terrorists, like Hamas and Hezbollah that never get condemned for raining down rockets on Israel, or take hostages? How many times have they attacked, each ***month*** with a barrage of rockets.

#30: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: kweniston, Location: Netherlands

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:32 pm
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sod98 wrote (View Post):

As for cartoons in schoolbooks: in my country they are intended to engage in subjective discussions about world events. They are not generally used to present off the shelve opinions, which is what the RT article seems to suggest.

Quote:

So they aren't intended to tell the truth. Let alone explain the truth to a new generation. I guess that's kweniston was suggesting in his post about Dutch media and you are confirming that. End of the day every good news item is someones opinion backed up with facts and good investigative journalism not scaremongering little kids with propaganda WW2 Nazi Germany style. Sadly ignoring whether it's Dutch, Russian or American propaganda littles very much. Currently the West has embarked upon a campaign of disinformation aimed at countries with differing views, cultures and economies to theirs. Iraq - WMD's, Syria - Sarin gas, Venezuela, Russia, China, Iran and many others.

I just say look at countries foreign policies to see who the real aggressors are - 75 countries attacked in individual conflicts by US and many of those by GB and NATO and or UN countries. Don't get me wrong some are warranted but most aren't.

I completely agree, sadly. I've come to realize in the last few years that NATO is a war organization, not a peace keeping one. It needs war and global tension and will push it in the interest of western powers and corporations. I only represent a minority opinion in Holland, but having traveled and talked to people all over Europe, incl. Russia, the balkans, Poland, etc, you are presented with views and opinions which we never hear about in our media. It really sets you thinking about stuff I took for granted for 30 years. Reading a lot of history, and news and sources from different channels, gets you a much more nuanced opinion. Sadly, on this topic, we've come so far that saying one pro-Russia comment gets you thrown in the "Putinist/commie" camp, which is exactly the intention of the media propaganda. Very dangerous situation indeed.

(FYI, just read the story of ex-newspaper editor Rudi Ulfkötte, who now confesses printing completely bogus stories for secret services (incl. stories on Russia, Libya, etc). That's why Twitter is my main news source now, not the mainstream media. Once you know more about a topic, you'll get disgusted by the 'news'.)

#31: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Siwy89,

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:20 pm
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"Do you really think for a minute that liberating Soviet Forces ( Polish inclusive ) would for a minute allow a Govt in exile to take over. Also going by what you are saying about Occupation of Poland then I guess Germany is still under Occupation to this day by US forces."

Soviets didn't even think for a second about returning sovereignty to "liberated" nations that's why I'm writing that their so called liberation was a mirage. Poland as member of Warsaw Pact didn't had possibility to make they're own foreign policy, all members- e.g. Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania etc. were client states/satelites of USSR. I don't understand part of Germany's being occupied by US, until 1990 West Germany was heavily under influence of US but now?

Just like today, these former Warsaw Pact countries are members of EU and NATO but not on the same ground as western countries- expansion of NATO and EU to the east was supposed to bring richier, western countries outlet for their products. Hard truth is that countries with weaker economy will always be influenced by countries with strong economy.

"What did the Nazis get out of invading Poland anyway?? There is nothing there. A strategic location maybe? were any ww2 factories setup there for parts or was it just another "lebensraum" such as France."

Hitler wanted to connect western and eastern Prussia, also make Danzig a city within III Reich's borders. Similar requests as for Czechoslovakia in 1938, but Poland refused. Polish army was significantly weaker than German's, not to say about Ribbentrop-Molotov pact (september 1st Germans attack on the west and september 17th Soviets attack on the East).

As for propaganda, some wise man said that you don't have to believe in propaganda to make it work. It will be sufficient if you begin to just doubt and wonder about propaganda's topic. There is brainwashing in the west and in Russia. Some said that NATO should be dispanded after the fall of the Soviet Union, but instead they were pushing to the east until they meet Russian citizens within borders of former soviet republics. It worked in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania but not in Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia.

#32: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:52 am
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Soviets didn't even think for a second about returning sovereignty to "liberated" nations that's why I'm writing that their so called liberation was a mirage. Poland as member of Warsaw Pact didn't had possibility to make they're own foreign policy, all members- e.g. Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania etc. were client states/satelites of USSR. I don't understand part of Germany's being occupied by US, until 1990 West Germany was heavily under influence of US but now?

Just like today, these former Warsaw Pact countries are members of EU and NATO but not on the same ground as western countries- expansion of NATO and EU to the east was supposed to bring richier, western countries outlet for their products. Hard truth is that countries with weaker economy will always be influenced by countries with strong economy.

"What did the Nazis get out of invading Poland anyway?? There is nothing there. A strategic location maybe? were any ww2 factories setup there for parts or was it just another "lebensraum" such as France."

Hitler wanted to connect western and eastern Prussia, also make Danzig a city within III Reich's borders. Similar requests as for Czechoslovakia in 1938, but Poland refused. Polish army was significantly weaker than German's, not to say about Ribbentrop-Molotov pact (september 1st Germans attack on the west and september 17th Soviets attack on the East).

As for propaganda, some wise man said that you don't have to believe in propaganda to make it work. It will be sufficient if you begin to just doubt and wonder about propaganda's topic. There is brainwashing in the west and in Russia. Some said that NATO should be dispanded after the fall of the Soviet Union, but instead they were pushing to the east until they meet Russian citizens within borders of former soviet republics. It worked in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania but not in Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia.[/quote]

What did US, GB and France do differently. Most if not all Western liberated countries had Friendly Govts installed. In fact many like Greece had the Pro-Nazi govt from the war reinstalled - dictatorship. Even today USA still has Military bases in Europe and why ?

Funny enough former Warsaw Pact countries weren't permitted to join NATO under the agreements of Glasnost and Perestroika. The Brit's adhered to that but the US sadly manipulated it. Germany wanted Poland for expansion for Germanics, coal and other resources, Ports - Danzig and entry to Russia.

#33: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Siwy89,

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:02 pm
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I understand your point, but apart from installing goverments US implemented in the West Marshall Plan, Americans were pumping money into western countries (of course mostly for US benefit, obviously). USSR were pumping Marks and Lenin's ideologies into eastern countries so there is the difference. I haven't got friendly altitude towards US politics, just staiting that situation was far worse in the East under Soviets and you can hardly argue about that.

I envy coutries like Switzerland, they manage to be neutral for soooo long. When there was last war in Swiss country? Napoleonic era? Or maybe Spring of Nations period.

#34: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:33 am
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Siwy89 wrote (View Post):

I understand your point, but apart from installing goverments US implemented in the West Marshall Plan, Americans were pumping money into western countries (of course mostly for US benefit, obviously). USSR were pumping Marks and Lenin's ideologies into eastern countries so there is the difference. I haven't got friendly altitude towards US politics, just staiting that situation was far worse in the East under Soviets and you can hardly argue about that.

I envy coutries like Switzerland, they manage to be neutral for soooo long. When there was last war in Swiss country? Napoleonic era? Or maybe Spring of Nations period.

USSR suffered and paid far more for it's victory than any other country. The monies promised by the US for reconstruction post WW2 never were paid and lead to the start of distrust of the West along with Operation Unthinkable, the Berlin Airlift lies and other discrediting Western attempts. Also keep in mind Western powers also were involved in conflicts post WW2 to keep populous down - Greece where Greek Communist fought to rid themselves of the Western backed WW2 Fascist Govt reinstalled by the West. Many other examples exist not just in Europe, but also in Asia, Africa etc. Western history on most occasions has forgotten these incidents but remembers other countries - propaganda.

Switzerland although they never took part in WW2 were the bankers for Nazi Germany and did also send train loads of escaping Jews back to occupied Europe and possible death. Sweden sold steel to Germany during the war. Not many countries were exempt.

Sadly former enemies - Germany and Japan received aid while countries like GB who also paid a high price were still paying off their debt in the 1980's - 1986 I think.

#35: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: jockthesock,

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:55 pm
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The Germans mainly killed non Germans, the Russians mainly killed Russians. The Russians didn't liberate Poland, they steam rollered over it on their way to Germany, after the Germans put down the Warsaw uprising.

#36: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:55 am
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jockthesock wrote (View Post):

The Germans mainly killed non Germans, the Russians mainly killed Russians. The Russians didn't liberate Poland, they steam rollered over it on their way to Germany, after the Germans put down the Warsaw uprising.

So the Poles had it better under Nazi Germany where 1 in 5 Poles died. That makes sense. Just because they replaced the Govt with a non western Govt doesn't mean Poland wasn't liberated. Yes the Warsaw Uprising was the Exiled Polish Govt's last attempt to regain power but failed. Once again another propaganda war started over the supposed refusal of Stalin to backup the Uprising. The truth is the Red Army had exhausted itself and overstretched itself beyond it's fuel and supply lines. A quick check of the dates and distance covered during that time establishes that and backed up by US Historian Stephen Ambrose.

Many countries liberated by the West had new Govt's put in place that differed from pre war and or the fascist Govt reinstated like Greece by Winston Churchill and GB Govt. Never less they were still liberated from Nazi Germany. Otherwise going by your theory most of Europe is still occupied by USA with all of it's US bases dotted around Europe. As for the generalisation that Russians killed mainly Russian's, that is a factless and baseless paranoid comment. Work off facts so you don't embarrass yourself further. Remembering it was the Soviets who ultimately defeated Nazi Germany and her European Allies while the rest fought against them on the 2nd Front tying up resources and numbers aiding the Soviets greatly. Many more Axis forces were killed by the Soviets - Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, Italians and many others.

#37: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: Siwy89,

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:28 pm
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I think you are both right about Warsaw Uprising. Russian army was stretched badly and lack of supplies prevents them from taking major actions on Warsaw's front, but this is not the only reason that soviets didn't support rebels. For Stalin it was very convenient that insurgents were fighting with Germans- killing two birds with one stone. Stalin, for most time, forbade american supply planes to land on soviets airfields. Only when uprising was nearly over he allows that. Maybe Americans or Brits could do the same, e.g when suddenly Paris was to be liberated by communists.

#38: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:57 pm
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Siwy89 wrote (View Post):

I think you are both right about Warsaw Uprising. Russian army was stretched badly and lack of supplies prevents them from taking major actions on Warsaw's front, but this is not the only reason that soviets didn't support rebels. For Stalin it was very convenient that insurgents were fighting with Germans- killing two birds with one stone. Stalin, for most time, forbade american supply planes to land on soviets airfields. Only when uprising was nearly over he allows that. Maybe Americans or Brits could do the same, e.g when suddenly Paris was to be liberated by communists.

Totally agree. Stalin was never going to help an Exiled Polish Govt. Just like how no other country was allowed to have a say in Occupied Japan although they participated in their down fall. Every major player had their own interest at heart and rightly so for their loses. The refusal to allow airfields by Stalin was at best a belated affair by the West - too little too late if it had come off.

#39: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: jockthesock,

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:08 pm
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To compare the German occupation with the Russian is not the point. The point is that the Russian system imposed on the Poles could not be described as liberation. As for being embarrassed, I've read Stalin The Red Tsar twice, Leon Trotsky, Stalin and his Hangmen, Lenin, Khrushchev, Eduard Shevardnadze, and Afgantsy. So I am not ignorant of that part of the world. Most westerners would prefer living in post war Greece than post war Eastern Europe, of that I have little doubt.
When asked how the war was won, I have always stated, by Russian blood, American industry and British money.
The numbers of Russians who died under Stalin, factless and baseless paranoia, I don't think so.
Not a fan of Stephen Ambrose, a bit light weight.

#40: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:35 pm
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jockthesock wrote (View Post):

To compare the German occupation with the Russian is not the point. The point is that the Russian system imposed on the Poles could not be described as liberation. As for being embarrassed, I've read Stalin The Red Tsar twice, Leon Trotsky, Stalin and his Hangmen, Lenin, Khrushchev, Eduard Shevardnadze, and Afgantsy. So I am not ignorant of that part of the world. Most westerners would prefer living in post war Greece than post war Eastern Europe, of that I have little doubt.
When asked how the war was won, I have always stated, by Russian blood, American industry and British money.
The numbers of Russians who died under Stalin, factless and baseless paranoia, I don't think so.
Not a fan of Stephen Ambrose, a bit light weight.

Well you did say " The Russians didn't liberate Poland, they steam rollered over it on their way to Germany ". However I guess upon reflection and seeing that you were wrong, decided to change your mind that's fine but at the least admit that, don't fudge it. I am also pleased that you have done alot of reading of those biographies, tell me though. How many of the writers actually met their subjects - none. The writers published works dependent upon third hand information at best - well done. They are still historical but accuracy in western history concerning Eastern Europe during these times is very limited. Like your acknowledge as you have shown by saying Ambrose being a light weight. In his earlier days he was as rubbish as your greats you mention above works are - lacked investigative know how, facts and stats. However in later years this all changed and he looked at both sides of every coin. Seeing the good and bad of all countries in topic. Remembering he is American and that is some feat.

Russian industry and populous won WW2 - T34, Sturmoviks, IS tanks and the like. These were produced in greater numbers than Germany's and the tanks in particular blunted, then destroyed the German Armour. The Western Front was only the 2nd front so don't keep fooling yourself. A side show that tied up Axis resources at a great cost and help.

Your other statement " the Russians mainly killed Russians ". Is paranoia or just deliberately inaccurate on your behalf - paranoid. With the books you have read surely somewhere at some stage that generalization would have been debunked. please show me the Official stats otherwise and not some third rate Brit school teachers guesstimate again. Like Beevors for 100,000 German women raped in Berlin by Russian soldiers. No evidence exists to these numbers - complaints to German police or military, no hospital records etc. rapes happened but not that many. Check out Operation Unthinkable for confirmation as to what Western Allies were planning for their Soviet Allies weeks after WW2. Thanks for the laughs though, your mindless rant just lacked facts, stats and the truth - again.

#41: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: jockthesock,

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:28 pm
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I'm no fan of Beevor either having read said book. I also haven't ranted. No one writing on Greek classical history have met their subjects either. The material support given to Russia in the earlier days amounted to a huge amount of planes, tanks and especially American trucks, but I have never seen a photo of Russian forces using any of it.
I can understand any Russian feeling aggrieved as to how their role in winning the war was so played down in the west, but the cold war will have to carry some of the blame for that. We in Britain are always moaning that the Americans say they won the war. To my mind the removal of any of the Big Three would have resulted in the loss of the war.
As for rape (no one knows or will ever know), complaints being recorded by Police or Hospitals, in Berlin in 1945, seriously!
Well this has been an unpleasant chat, which is a shame, as I rarely meet some one who is passionate about history. But your insulting attitude means I shall no longer be responding to your posts.

#42: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Author: sod98,

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:39 pm
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jockthesock wrote (View Post):

I'm no fan of Beevor either having read said book. I also haven't ranted. No one writing on Greek classical history have met their subjects either. The material support given to Russia in the earlier days amounted to a huge amount of planes, tanks and especially American trucks, but I have never seen a photo of Russian forces using any of it.
I can understand any Russian feeling aggrieved as to how their role in winning the war was so played down in the west, but the cold war will have to carry some of the blame for that. We in Britain are always moaning that the Americans say they won the war. To my mind the removal of any of the Big Three would have resulted in the loss of the war.
As for rape (no one knows or will ever know), complaints being recorded by Police or Hospitals, in Berlin in 1945, seriously!
Well this has been an unpleasant chat, which is a shame, as I rarely meet some one who is passionate about history. But your insulting attitude means I shall no longer be responding to your posts.

Sorry to hear that you won't reply.

Germans kept records on everything and still have them from start, during, at the end of and post WW2. Yes, some records were lost but records on these criminal behaviours to this extent never happened. Otherwise where did the figures come from - made up of course. As for never seeing a photo of the US material given to the Soviets - really. There are hundreds - Shermans, Grants and Stuarts pics. You aren't looking in the right places. Lots are of them knocked out - German pics too.

Did you check out Operation Unthinkable by chance.

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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