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Close Combat Series -> The Mess

#41: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: sod98,

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:19 pm
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Am I wrong to assume that any information I see these days may be leaning one way or the other in an attempt to underscore the facts?[/quote]

Totally agree

#42: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: sod98,

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:20 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

Some read comics for their fix of history.........others actual history books and literature - that can be electronic as well but not Wiki. -Sod98

Encyclopedia Britannica - NO HITS - Question

I wouldn't use Britannica either. Actually I never have.

#43: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: sod98,

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:25 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2016)

For every so called Wiki accuracy there is several times that of inaccurate articles. [citation needed]You state one when there clearly is vastly more releases and studies giving examples and frequencies of Wiki being little more than opinions.[citation needed] Put it this way, if you are sick you go see a doctor. [citation needed]If your car needs to be repaired, you go to a mechanic. If you want history, you use history books not someones unqualified, unverified and often little better than a brief opinion. How many examples for research against the use of Wiki would you need to see before you could admit that you are wrong. Wiki is becoming less accurate and reliable, not better. [citation needed]The very nature of Wiki means that it is open to abuse and many incorrect Wiki articles once pointed out go unchanged.

It's just a case that you can't admit that you are totally wrong.[citation needed] The net is full to overflowing with articles giving examples of problems.[citation needed] Good Universities won't look at students use of Wiki other than to find credible citations as reports aren't reliable. [citation needed]But at the end of the day if you keep your mind closed no matter the evidence, nothing will change your opinion. I try to present mine on evidence not guess work. [citation needed]Lets hope your doctor doesn't use Wiki the next time you go to see him for help. -Sod98

I like it. However my statements are printed on Wiki. If you need verification of common sense then that leaves you in a very poor light. Keep up the good work Stwa.

#44: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:21 am
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This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2016)

I like it. However my statements are printed on Wiki. [citation needed] If you need verification of common sense then that leaves you in a very poor light. [citation needed] Keep up the good work Stwa. -sod98

#45: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: sod98,

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:51 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2016)

More importantly, when are you going to admit to being wrong. Or is it a US thing never to admit wrong, but "Gott mit uns " . Man up.

#46: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:56 pm
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This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.
This article needs additional citations for verification. (April 2016)
This article is written like a personal reflection or opinion essay that states the authors' particular feelings about a topic, rather than the opinions of experts. (April 2016)
This article may require copy editing for grammar, style, cohesion, tone, or spelling. (April 2016)

More importantly, when are you going to admit to being wrong. Or is it a US thing never to admit wrong, but "Gott mit uns " . Man up. -sod98

#47: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: sod98,

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:14 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.
This article needs additional citations for verification. (April 2016)
This article is written like a personal reflection or opinion essay that states the authors' particular feelings about a topic, rather than the opinions of experts. (April 2016)
This article may require copy editing for grammar, style, cohesion, tone, or spelling. (April 2016)

More importantly, when are you going to admit to being wrong. Or is it a US thing never to admit wrong, but "Gott mit uns " . Man up. -sod98

The above is just another way of side stepping the issue that Stwa can't admit that he was wrong yet again. That Wiki is not a reliable source for information due to it's inaccuracies. Instead he tries his hardest to divert attention away from his inability to face the truth.........that he is wrong. The moment you said Wiki is used for academic research was the moment you lost your argument...........the start. Prove me wrong on one thing and you destroy me, but you can't and haven't been up to the job for sometime.

I'm still awaiting your admission that you were wrong. Man up. Every day you fail to do so, you lose face a little further. It's not as though you being an American that you aren't use to losing as history shows - not Wiki.

#48: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: jakebullet70, Location: Washington State / Kherson Ukraine

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:15 pm
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sod98 wrote (View Post):

Stwa wrote (View Post):

Man up? Being an American?
WOW!!!! Heck, I am wrong on lots of things and learn everyday. (2 x-wife's will tell you that)

We are here for fun and you make it like it is do or die and get personal? Man up... hehehe Still laughing at you for that... LOL aaahhh, the wife made some borche, time to eat.

#49: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: sod98,

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:46 am
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I'm still awaiting your admission that you were wrong. Man up. Every day you fail to do so, you lose face a little further. It's not as though you being an American that you aren't use to losing as history shows - not Wiki.[/quote]

Man up? Being an American?
WOW!!!! Heck, I am wrong on lots of things and learn everyday. (2 x-wife's will tell you that)

We are here for fun and you make it like it is do or die and get personal? Man up... hehehe Still laughing at you for that... LOL aaahhh, the wife made some borche, time to eat.[/quote

See how easy it is to say when you are wrong. Like you, I to often make mistakes. However our Stwa often likes to have a crack at people the same way. I'm just giving him his own back. The American thing is to force a reply from him. You are of course right..........it's a generalization..............massive generalization and totally incorrect. The man up part is right however. Trolling............a little, piss taking .............a lot.

ps I think you mean " borscht " and I can hear Stwa calling you that it's ready.

#50: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:43 pm
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This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.
This article needs additional citations for verification. (April 2016)
This article is written like a personal reflection or opinion essay that states the authors' particular feelings about a topic, rather than the opinions of experts. (April 2016)
This article may require copy editing for grammar, style, cohesion, tone, or spelling. (April 2016)

The above is just another way of side stepping the issue that Stwa can't admit that he was wrong yet again. That Wiki is not a reliable source for information due to it's inaccuracies. [citation needed] Instead he tries his hardest to divert attention away from his inability to face the truth.........that he is wrong. The moment you said Wiki is used for academic research was the moment you lost your argument...........the start. [citation needed] Prove me wrong on one thing and you destroy me, but you can't and haven't been up to the job for sometime. -sod98

#51: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: sod98,

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:44 pm
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Stwa - It must really hurt and annoy you to be that wrong to me, that you can't front up and admit to being wrong - Wiki is a unreliable source for information. Really it was pretty obvious to all be the under privileged when it comes to education. A decent Uni makes all the difference it appears. Please keep reading your historical comics.........lol.

#52: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:46 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

From Encyclopedia Brtiannica;

Quote:

In World War II, however, it was virtually destroyed by the Red Army after a two-month siege ending in April 1945.

Would Otto Lasch's comment on casualties not been inclusive of atleast those two months? Why would he say 42,000 KIA in just those three days? With the total amount of men he had under his command surrounded in the pocket during the siege, if he lost 42,000 of them in three days and 92,000 surrendered on the 9th, it leaves very little room for casualties preceding the three day assault. Dima?

Hi Mooxe,

the active combat against the city of Kenigsberg ended in February 1944. After that the RKKA units were mainly clearing area north and south of it where the Germans lost even more than inside the city.
but all reports agree that before second half of April 7th the German command tried hard to keep communal services working, even factories were running so it's a good assumption that all the dead in those 2 months were burried well.

what I actually missed is that before the actual assault there was prelimentary artillery strikes for destruction for 4 days since April 1st:

1.169 guns (including 472 heavy - >152mm) in 39A for 8km of front.
1.289 guns (596 heavy) in 43A for 5km of front.
957 guns (471 heavy) in 50A for 5km of front.
1.584 guns (819 heavy) in 11GvA for 8km of front.

guess that led to a lot of casualties even before the actual assault on April 6th.

also the good portion of casualties could be inflicted by the Soviet aviation that started to bomb massively after the weather became good on the morning of April 7th:

Since 10:00 - 102 bombers with 338t of bombs dropped.
Since 13:00 - 506 bombers with 550t of bombs dropped.

altogether 1.248t of bombs on April 7th.

also on April 8th the garrison units got an order to break through to the west to connect with the German 4th army which was repulsed with huge German casualities by aviation and defending units of 39A.

So basically by April 8th there wasn't a solid defence in the city but mainly groups not connected to each other that were assaulted by assault groups with heavy artillery and tanks/SPGs.

Btw losses of AVFs were:

1) 43A:
T34 - 4 burned, 1 drove on landmine, 6 stuck.
ISU-122 - 2 burned, 2 drove on landmines, 1 stuck.
ISU-152 - 3 burned, 3 KO, 3 drove on landmines, 2 stuck.
SU-76 - 1 burned.

2) 50A:
T34 - 5 burned, 7 KO, 4 drove on landmine, 2 stuck.
ISU-122 - 3 burned, 2 KO.
ISU-152 - 5 KO.

3) 11GvA:
T34 - 5 burned, 3 KO, 10 stuck.
ISU-122 - 1 stuck.
ISU-152 - 3 burned, 11 KO, 7 stuck.
SU-76 - 11 burned, 4 KO, 1 drove on landmine, 1 stuck.

Doesn't look much either, does it?

#53: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: sod98,

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:54 pm
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Man up? Being an American?
WOW!!!! Heck, I am wrong on lots of things and learn everyday. (2 x-wife's will tell you that)

We are here for fun and you make it like it is do or die and get personal? Man up... hehehe Still laughing at you for that... LOL aaahhh, the wife made some borche, time to eat.[/quote]

You complain about something then you do the very same thing yourself. Now that is a very American thing.....being a hypocrite. Man up............lol.

#54: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:28 pm
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jakebullet70 wrote (View Post):

Dima wrote (View Post):

jakebullet70 wrote (View Post):

The German casualties quoted are from January to the surrender. Not in just the 3 days.

you are wrong.

Dima, could you please share your sources?

mainly the Assault of Kenigsberg (January - April 1944) by E.Shilovsky and the G.Kretinin's research (posted by Stwa).

#55: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: jakebullet70, Location: Washington State / Kherson Ukraine

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:39 pm
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sod98 wrote (View Post):

You complain about something then you do the very same thing yourself. Now that is a very American thing.....being a hypocrite. Man up............lol.[/quote]

lol

#56: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: sod98,

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:33 am
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Good on ya.

#57: Re: Kenigsberg assault Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:02 am
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For Königsberg i recommend these books to cover the german details

General info:
Otto Lasch: So fiel Königsberg. Motorbuch Verlag,

Herbert Noé: Dem Tod voraus: Ostpreußen 1945. Rauterberg 2007

Also the war diaries (at least those that survived)
548th Volksgrenadier Div.
561st Volksgrenadier Div. (561st consisted of two regiments after Tilsit battle)
61st inf. Div (only battlegroup left)
69th inf. + 56th (merged)
367th Inf. Div (only 2 regiments + support)
75th Sec regiment

The size, casualties and POW seem high, but we have to take into consideration the numerous ad hoc, HJ, police, party, staff-SS, Volkssturm and Alarmeinheiten.

According to Lasch, however, I doubt he had more than 40.000 men at his disposal in the final assault (30k WH +10k Volkssturm + other) . The number of prisoners is that high cause the Soviets initially captured everybody in uniform, even railroad, foresters or public officials.

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