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Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Last Stand Arnhem

#1: Always obey orders? Author: Oliver70,

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:15 pm
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Hi All,
I've just bought Close Combat Last Stand Arnhem online. After several days of playing GC (against AI) i can say i love it but, i'm quite exasperated by the fact that units don't follow orders anymore as soon as enemy open fire on them. I think i've read something about that on this forum but can't remind it precisely, it seems to be part of latest update changes. It's no longer possible to assault a position like in CC5, because my units start to sneak backwards instead of running when they hear the noise of a bullet, even with a supporting group leader and even if you use smoke Smile

Excuse me but WTF? Did they seriously test this before releasing? It's a big issue when you play the allies and you are supposed to capture bridge before they're destroyed. I have to repeat move/move fast orders again and again and finally the assault is a complete fail.
What if i enable the "Always obey orders" option to counter this? I'm affraid this will have an effect also on other parts of the game so i would need an expert answer before enabling what i always considered as non-realistic. Or if someone has a better way to fix this please let me know.

#2: Re: Always obey orders? Author: Hicks,

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:29 pm
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I think it's a hard coded behaviour now. Some describe it as "Girly Soldiers" I like to think of it as the "snails crawling to doom".

The only way I was able to compensate for the infantry's tendency to shuffle through the grass now was to rely more on flanking and very heavily suppressing a target. Even then they will still dive to the ground with frequency.

#3: Re: Always obey orders? Author: Oliver70,

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:42 am
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Thx Hicks. Unfortunatly that's not the answer i hoped. God, i hate this... but i had to enable "always obey orders" option because i was definetly pissed off by the girlie soldiers behavior. Basically it works, units keep going and even move fast even when under fire but you'd better know what you are doing when using this or the team is lost... I will test it further and see what i prefer, girlie soldiers or mindless soldiers Very Happy

#4: Re: Always obey orders? Author: Hicks,

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:02 pm
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I can understand it being implemented as a way to get you to play more cautiously but when a team dives to the ground from a shot that was fired from three hundred meters and missed and they then crawl around for the next few minutes when you need them to run does get irritating.

If you can find them it may be worth getting hold of the original releases of Close Combats 3/4/5, no "girlie" soldiers there.

The most recent title Gateway to Caen seems to have tempered their behaviour a little also. It's not as good as the originals but its not as bad as Last Stand Arnhems and nowhere near as bad as Cross of Irons infantry. The flip side to that is going to be the tanks I felt performed better in LSA but worse in GtC.

Long story short? Get Close Combat 3/5.

#5: Re: Always obey orders? Author: Oliver70,

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:47 pm
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Thanks God i already have them! Very Happy

I started to play with original CC3 when it was released (near 1999) and i even always have the original manual
(It was my favorite until a few days ago, i think LSA is far better from all aspects except that girlie soldier thing)

I also have CC5 but got bored of it, mainly because AI is not challenging at all, it's too easy, whatever the side/options you choose. Due to the bad strategical map, most of battles always happen on the 8/10 same maps and it's always 15 vs 15 units nothing really exciting since you're never outnumbered like in LSA (or even CC3)
Now if someone propose me a H2H i would accept Very Happy

#6: Re: Always obey orders? Author: Hicks,

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:04 pm
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Oliver70 wrote (View Post):

Thanks God i already have them! Very Happy

If the multiplayer works via direct IP I'd be happy to give CC3 a spin Very Happy

#7: Re: Always obey orders? Author: Oliver70,

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:51 pm
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I'm up for this.

#8: Re: Always obey orders? Author: Oliver70,

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:11 pm
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Ok so i tried to enable "always obey orders" to see if it can "counterspell" the girlie soldier thing. Somehow it does... but i don't recommend it. Soldiers don't try to protect themselves from fire at all and i assume it's possible to fire or moves when it's normally not possible, due to suppression for example (but i didn't try this). So i will just disable it and try to get used to that new soldier behavior... Sad

#9: Re: Always obey orders? Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:25 pm
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In multiplayer this is easy to exploit. If you are pressed for time you just have to shoot at each team you want to slow down to force your opponent to reissue orders. Easily exploitable vs the AI to, assuming it gets up to move.

The difference from the originals is... once fired upon the team would go prone and continue crawling to the way point. In the new version they cancel their movement all together and sometimes go back the opposite way. The weight of enemy fire required to cancel a movement is extremely low, maybe if that could be adjusted a better middle ground can be found.

This is another function of the game that has intersected with other peoples version of reality and their attempt to make the game more realistic. In my opinion it makes the game less fun to play, requires more micromanagement and strays from the intent of the game being fun to play. The game has a very small player base, and this function satisfies very few in the already few we have.

#10: Re: Always obey orders? Author: crewman,

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:48 am
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it is said that soldier behaviour stuff is hard coded in game and therefore can't be modded, but Morale and Experience settings can be modded.
Higher values increases accuracy, but maybe also soldier determination?
You could experiment with the stock game or try LSA Gold Juno Sword 7.3 ... which uses higher values.

#11: Re: Always obey orders? Author: Oliver70,

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:59 am
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

In multiplayer this is easy to exploit. If you are pressed for time you just have to shoot at each team you want to slow down to force your opponent to reissue orders. Easily exploitable vs the AI to, assuming it gets up to move.

The difference from the originals is... once fired upon the team would go prone and continue crawling to the way point. In the new version they cancel their movement all together and sometimes go back the opposite way. The weight of enemy fire required to cancel a movement is extremely low, maybe if that could be adjusted a better middle ground can be found.

This is another function of the game that has intersected with other peoples version of reality and their attempt to make the game more realistic. In my opinion it makes the game less fun to play, requires more micromanagement and strays from the intent of the game being fun to play. The game has a very small player base, and this function satisfies very few in the already few we have.

Yes it's a pity. Beside this it's a lovely game. Latest CC i played was CC5 and it's a great improvement of the game, i enjoy it! I didn't try TLD yet, i assume it's a good one. Did they change that girlie soldier thing in TLD?

I will certainly try GJS mod one of these days Smile

#12: Re: Always obey orders? Author: pvt_Grunt, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:55 pm
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It could be fixed with a "Charge" command or something like it.

Say, IF a team has a good command nearby, AND the fire is not too strong, they would continue to their destination. Smoke and fatigue should be a factor as well.

Just thinking.......

#13: Re: Always obey orders? Author: vobbnobb,

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:38 pm
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I have posted this millions of time. You guys are pretty much wrong it's not a pathing problem for a tank or soldier bug. It's because the men are ROOKIES. You have terrible soldiers because you as the commander need to build them to elite. You can witness this with greenhorn tank drivers backing up or turning sides to the enemy or a rookie loader taking forever to load a round. greenhorn soldier will get injured more easily, run off the field do some crazy stuff like break away from the group to assault the enemy and completely loose it. YOU have the power to win missions and each time you do your tankers build skills, your sniper gets more deadly and your soldiers become tougher. You will see a veteran tank crew knock out an enemy tank quickly and rarely if ever turn it's sides or go backwards. If the driver gets killed, the skill is lost. A rookie or better is put in his spot so it still might drive terribly. So try to keep your men alive!

READ THE MANUAL

10.5 Experience
Experience is vital for a soldier and can affect a wide range of his abilities, ranging from how good a shot he is, to how well he can hide himself in Ambush, or how well he conserves ammo. More experienced soldiers do just about everything better than green troops.
Each soldier also has his kills and achievements listed as a cumulative total in Operations and Campaigns.

#14: Re: Always obey orders? Author: Oliver70,

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:16 am
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vobbnobb? Would you say that british and US paratroopers were rookies? It's precisely what i can't understand, veterans diving in the grass at the first bullet and their movement cancelled, it's just not realistic and a pain in the ass for the player. They just did too much, we all agree about that.

Now i agree that experience is the most important soldier caracteristic and that it influences almost everything.

About vehicules, no idea what happened, it seems the move command doesn't work anymore like in previous games and gives unexpected results (so i prefer to use most fast to keep my frontal armor ahead or sneak for other movements).

Last edited by Oliver70 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:57 pm; edited 2 times in total

#15: Re: Always obey orders? Author: vobbnobb,

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:50 am
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Oliver70 wrote (View Post):

vobbnobb? Would you say that british and US paratroopers were rookies? It's precisely what i can't understand, veterans diving in the grass at the first bullet and their movement cancelled, it's just not realistic and a pain in the ass for the player. They just did too much, we all agree about that.

Now i agree that experience is the most important soldier caracteristic and that it influences almost everything.

About vehicules, no idea what happened, it seems the move command doesn't work anymore like in previous game and gives unexpected results.

Oliver??? Yes, If the paratroopers are fighting an enemy that has greater or equal skill. The Germans knew the area and were fighting already before the US and British got there and were made veterans with wars by the French and Russians. There are more things to look at such as morale and supplies as well as historically set one time missions that you can't change your troops status in.

Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Last Stand Arnhem

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