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Close Combat Series -> Mods by Buck and Pete

#1: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:37 am
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Hey all,

I am in the process of converting our Ortona '43 mod from CC5 to Cross of Iron. The conversion is based on the West Front mod to make things a little easier for me. The Ortona maps are being converted to COI. This means that all maps have to be recoded to the COI elements file -which can be done fairly quickly- and that they have to be turned and flipped in order to represent the correct direction of attack while maintaining correct shadow direction.
Currently it is in playable state but the map coding needs refinement.

Pete

#2: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: ScnelleMeyer,

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:17 pm
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Thanks for the update Pete! - Good work your doing on this one - looking forward to playing it in COI-mode. I hope it will be as hard as it was in CC5:D

#3: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:04 pm
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ScnelleMeyer wrote (View Post):

Thanks for the update Pete! - Good work your doing on this one - looking forward to playing it in COI-mode. I hope it will be as hard as it was in CC5:D

Unfortunately it is just too easy in COI. I find COI in general quite easy to play and I am under no illusion that I will be able to change the nature of the game in this mod.

#4: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: ScnelleMeyer,

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:22 pm
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Did you look into implementing some of TT-tricks ? - The hardest game in the series is in my opinion CCMT and its elements file is in large responsible for it IMO - Might want to check up on your elements file - see if something can be done there?

#5: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: dj,

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:38 am
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Yes thanks Pete. I never could get CC5 working in compatibility mode in Windows 7. Always wanted to try your Ortona mod, good stuff!

#6: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:51 pm
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To answer your question about converting Ortona to Gateway to Caen: there are things not to like about the forcepool and battle group system of the latest versions PiTF and GtC. It's complicated and in order to add units to the forcepool you can only do so by creating platoon sized units as a minimum. It is far more difficult to get the units in your roster than in COI . Suppose you lose 1 or 2 units you can not replace them individually.
Apart from that , I intend to use the Ortona COI data as a basis for a conversion of the Scheldt mod to COI.

#7: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:36 pm
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ScnelleMeyer wrote (View Post):

Did you look into implementing some of TT-tricks ? - The hardest game in the series is in my opinion CCMT and its elements file is in large responsible for it IMO - Might want to check up on your elements file - see if something can be done there?

To be quite honest I don't know what TT's tricks are. I know I should be looking at the elements file though but if you have experience with the COI elements and can point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.

#8: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: ScnelleMeyer,

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:36 pm
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TT- Was the guy behind TT-VETBOB of CC4. It made playing against the AI quite a challenge.

Here is a link to a short interview with him:
http://www.closecombat.org/csoforums/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=10167&p=73992&hilit=tt%2C+interview#p73992

Basically coding changes for vehicle and infantry teams, stacking VLs to make AI attack and smaller maps.

Regarding COI elements - dont have experience on modding COI, but I have an OK understanding of the elements file itself. - I will take a look and at it and get back to you.

#9: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:54 pm
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ScnelleMeyer wrote (View Post):

TT- Was the guy behind TT-VETBOB of CC4. It made playing against the AI quite a challenge.

Here is a link to a short interview with him:
http://www.closecombat.org/csoforums/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=10167&p=73992&hilit=tt%2C+interview#p73992

Basically coding changes for vehicle and infantry teams, stacking VLs to make AI attack and smaller maps.

Ah those changes. Thought you meant elements changes. Yes I can apply those changes but they will turn the mod into a single player mod, meaning I would have to 2 create versions. Right now I am thinking along the lines of focusing on infantry in the battle groups and reducing support. I also need to increase cover and concealment in the elements and reduce LOS.

#10: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: ScnelleMeyer,

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:17 pm
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I had a feeling you knew:) - I think you are on the right track, just keep in mind that support units means variety and change. To few might make for boring play IMO.
The main difference I found while quickly scanning COI and CCMT elements are that HINDRANCE values are upped a great deal in CCMT especially for building elements.

Infantry are generally to easy to spot in the other releases. - And if you see them... - You can kill them. Often in CCMT I recieve enemy infantry fire and have a hard time finding the hidden enemy. I think this is both more realistic and harder.

#11: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: dj,

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:31 am
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Any chance you can make the single player mod version later? Thanks again Pete for your efforts.

Pete wrote (View Post):

ScnelleMeyer wrote (View Post):

#12: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: reconscout, Location: U.S.A.

Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:43 am
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WOW!!!!!! this sounds great, I enjoy playing COI and so does my son. Thank you for all your work Pete. I look forward to playing this mod. Very Happy

#13: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:16 pm
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Quick update: since I have never been completely happy with the coding of the Ortona CC5 maps I am now reviewing them and improving coding where necessary. This will of course delay the COI conversion because the reworked maps will have to be converted again . Most of the work is now in recoding and reconverting. Datawise it is just a matter of details. Battles play without issues.

#14: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:41 pm
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New update: I have converted the recoded CC5 maps again to COI. Turned out I was still not very happy with the LOS on some maps. Due to the excessive height differences tanks had commanding LOS across the maps so that infantry were sitting ducks. I decreased the elevation in most maps (the COI maps) and went back to testing. In the process I am designing battles and operations.

#15: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:59 pm
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Now, on the subject of designing Operations I need some help. I created a 4 map Op, played it and occupied 3 maps at the end of the Op. Yet, my result was a 'major defeat' . I was the attacker.
So , how are victory conditions determined?

#16: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: reconscout, Location: U.S.A.

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:42 pm
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Sounds great what you re doing so far, not sure how the game engine decides what is the result of a battle. When you fought each map you were given a result for that map right? Not sure if COI shows an overall result for a campaign on several maps. It has been awhile since I played but I believe CC3 didn't and COI is based on that games engine.

#17: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: dj,

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:49 am
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Anyone know how to modify CoI victory conditions?

#18: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:29 pm
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Brake replied to my question on the Close Combat fb group. However, it didnot answer my question on how I lost the Operation with 3 of 4 maps in my possession. I understand that the number of VL's, casualties play a role and I did better with both.

#19: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: mick_xe5,

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:03 am
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Pete wrote (View Post):

...Yet, my result was a 'major defeat' . . . So , how are victory conditions determined

Was that 'Major Defeat' the result on the final battle debrief or the operation debrief?

#20: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:04 pm
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It was the result of the Operation Debrief. The Battle Debrief was Total Victory or Major Victory I think.
So the results were in terms of casualties 1:2 in my advantage, I had 3 out of 4 maps completely under my control and roughly 65% of the VLs. I had at least 250 requisition points remaining.
On the other hand: I had 2 teams more to start the campaign with and somewhat more requisition points throughout the operation. The last battle was over quickly because my opponent had less than half of my teams.

#21: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: mick_xe5,

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:08 pm
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Pete wrote (View Post):

...I had 3 out of 4 maps completely under my control and roughly 65% of the VLs. I had at least 250 requisition points remaining.

The COI game manual is less than useful about the various victory levels. In particular, this statement in section 7.23: "To see the number of victory locations you were expected to take for a particular battle or operation, either select the scenario on the Command screen or view the briefing for that scenario."

I did find this nugget buried in the Battlemaker section: "Click either German offensive, Russian offensive, or Meeting engagement. In the first two choices, the winning side needs to hold 80 percent or greater of the victory locations. For the Meeting engagement choice, each side holds 50 percent."

Based on this, since you only took ~65% of the VLs you were scored a defeat, possibly modified further against you as your expected performance would have been greater because you had 2 more team slots (higher rank) per 7.24: "Base score is based on rank. Because you are expected to fight more successfully as you move up in rank, your base score is highest when you are at the lowest rank and decreases as you rise in rank."

It would take a number of play-throughs to interpolate how victory levels are determined by the interaction of rank, casualty scoring, VLs and maps. Seemingly, one way to adjust victory conditions would be to use the 80% of VLs rule to load certain maps with maximum VLs ( 8 ) while using less ( 1-2 ) on others. After 1 battle in a custom op meeting engagement where the Germans controlled 16 out of 19 VLs (84%), their op debrief indicated a minor defeat (pic attached). Clearly the 80% VLs rule is modified by casualties and base score.

A related approach would be to create an offensive op for one side, overload the end map with VLs but flag the op in Battlemaker as a meeting engagement.

Another victory issue to explore is the choice of start and, more importantly, end maps. A few quick play-throughs seem to indicate the end map determines expected VL control. If there are additional maps beyond the end map these seem to serve as a potential means to elevate the victory level.

There is a system to victory levels but its obscure. This is an advantage in preventing competitive players from gaming the system but a huge disadvantage to designers trying to create balanced ops/camps w/r/t victory conditions. Overall, just another milestone in the long, slow death of game documentation.

#22: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:08 pm
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Good comments mick_xe5

#23: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:33 pm
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Very useful comments Mick_xe5. Thank you! I am going to take some time to let this sink in and experiment a bit to create more balanced Ops.

#24: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:21 pm
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Principal graphics work has been done (some graphs have conveniently been overlooked) so it is time to announce an ETA: March 2018. I am now creating single battles and reviewing some of the data. It is not going to be a perfectly polished mod though, but I intend to update it later this year with a set of new maps . This being my first COI mod I suspect there are going to be comments and suggestions about things I have not considered well enough so that I will have to update some data and battles anyway.
Having said that, the mod is a continuation of the West Front mod (or was it Commonwealth - sorry don't remember right now) which is a finished product already. I just changed it so as to make it suitable for the Ortona mod.

#25: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: reconscout, Location: U.S.A.

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:00 pm
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I am looking forward to this, thank you for all your work Very Happy

#26: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Uberdave, Location: Kansas, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:45 am
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Any new work on CC mods is appreciated. But I'd really like to see more of your stuff ported to TLD or LSA.

I usually never pay much attention to mod maker's names, especially if I don't know them from way back. But Pete and Buck have consistently produced quality work that I admire. I'd love to see Ortona and Scheldt ported to the above.

#27: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:05 pm
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I have not seen comments on my not releasing the Ortona for COI mod. Yet I feel an explanation is in order. The mod was pretty much done and as usual I was losing myself in details of the battles I was creating. At the same time I could not get a plugin file working, which was the prime reason for not releasing it.
Then I got invited to be part of the alpha test of TBF and put the mod aside. After playtesting TBF for some time I lost interest in the series altogether and switched to a mindless 1st person shooter. October 2018 I lost my system SSD because of repeated bsod's, losing the latest version of the mod. I have a back up of an earlier version but it needs work.
However, with the 75th anniversay of the Battle of the Scheldt estuary this fall , I decided to get back into modding and try and convert the Scheldt mod to COI before October. Which is what I am working on now. After that I will return to the Ortona mod. Patience is a virtue.

#28: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:02 pm
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Update: since the conversion of the Scheldt mod to COI is nearly done, I have recommenced work on the conversion of the Ortona mod to COI. Most of the previous work is useable and it shouldn't be long before this conversion is finished. I am aiming for this summer.

#29: Re: Ortona '43 mod conversion to COI Author: Mg421942,

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:34 pm
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Thanks for all the mods! Where can I download this one? The links from your Facebook are expired.

Close Combat Series -> Mods by Buck and Pete

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