Working on TLD Kursk mod
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#21: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: Sequoia PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:53 am
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Hello:

Do you consider the inclusion of Infantry AT teams other than PTRD/PTRS equipped. I mean teams as described here:
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2017/11/molotov-cocktails.html. I experimented a little in COI, just a test battle, only creating new entries at RUTeams files. Latter reverted the changes and no further actions for the present (like made modifications at Soldiers file), since my focus is another proyect, relatively easier. I made some research and can share my historical notes with you.  

Here it's a 1945's English-Russian, Russian-English dictionary:
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=11845&highlight=
 
Bye.

#22: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: ke_mechial PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:41 am
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Drizzt wrote (View Post):
Hi everyone,

I write this post to inform the community that I have started to work on TLD Kursk mod: it has been in my mind for many time, now I have started seriously the work. I will use this thread to ask help, if necessary.

Porting a mod requires many time. Porting an unfinished and never tested mod it requires more than many time.
The user Waldganger has started this project for CC5 many years ago: he has done a beautiful graphic work and he has created the mod Data, but his excellent work needs anyway a rework (it's normal: the mod it was a work in progress). For example, about forcepools, all Wehrmarcht forcepools are filled with SS units (same thing for the guards units in regular Russian battlegroups) : they must be totally remade. I will also add some BGs (for sure) and some teams (probably).

The mod it's focused on a specific portion of the south sector of the Kursk salient: the 4th Panzer Army faces the 6th Guards Army, some elements of 69 Army, the reserves of the Voronezh front (the real reserves of this front and the 1st Tank Army deployed deep) and later some of the best units of the Steppe front. I have already done a research work to rework forcepools in the best way possible.

About sounds: The main and most important sound.sfx file has been created by Waldganger: I will see if there will be some work to do on it, but it’s already made. All other sounds files are a secondary and easy thing.

About maps: there are at least 30 (CC3) kursk style custom maps that can be used in a very good way for this mod (I have already done this selection), and a “pool” of 20-25 possible maps to choose the remaining 14 maps. For sure, maps need a full BTD files work (not only a work to port them to TLD; this work is necessary in any case) and probably some work on .txt files and/or elements Data file.

I have already finished the porting work for CCImages.px file. Now I’m working on maps. I hope I will not find bugs and/or missing files in azp files (could be a real problem) and to work on this project with continuity.
That’s all for now.

Drizzt


That is really nice. The battle of Kursk certainly deserves a mod. Looking forward to play it. Good Luck.

#23: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: qwaqwe PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:25 am
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I think that molotov cocktails didn't use in Kursk battle and and from 1943 at all.

#24: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: Antony_nz PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:05 pm
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Cool!

#25: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: Drizzt PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:42 pm
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qwaqwe wrote (View Post):
I think that molotov cocktails didn't use in Kursk battle and and from 1943 at all.

For what I have read, Molotov cocktails were used at kursk, but not in  “molotov teams”, simply some soldiers of an infantry unit had them. Small AT tank teams probably had both AT grenades and some Molotov.  


For all the users that have commented: thanks guys for the support.  


Update about the work:
40% of work done.
- Graphic - porting/upgrading/new things added/various things corrected: work completed (but .azp files will be checked later).
- some custom maps files reworked (never a deep a work) to fit better with TLD and/or the mod. BTD files created only about exit victory locations. Work 70% complete.
- Stratmap.txt (a file that needs a long edit) it’s 50% complete.

Now I’m working on data:
- Force pools must be redone (it's the last work to do in Data).
- Weapons: I have found errors: both timeline and potential bug crash. Aircrafts must be redone in both weapons and vehicles files.
- Inside the vehicles file there are a good number of potential bug crash errors, I think due to the mod timeline (example: to correct a vehicle in a right way for the mod timeline, in past it had been removed a vehicle weapon without to remove the relative ammo, or vice versa).
- Als-teams an Ge-teams must be reworked/corrected/upgraded (not a deep work, for what I have seen).
- Some soldiers must be reworked to match the other changes.
- More in general, every line/column must be checked (sometime in a very fast way, sometime not). For the beta, I will not check all weapons range and all armor of the tanks/vehicles. After the beta everyone that wants help in this sense, he’s welcome (anyway the few things I have checked as a statistical sample were good).
- Battlegroups file it's done.
- I have already added 10 BGs and some teams (few).
- Uniforms and Nations files created; campaign.txt it’s 50% done.

After the data work:
- Stratmap.txt file and BTD files must be finished.
- sounds (a check work) Video and music (must be created). “Extra” folder (must be created).
- Battles, ops and campaigns (must be created).

I think that's all for now.

#26: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: southern_land PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:33 am
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What maps are you using?  The old CC3/COI Kursk style maps?

#27: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: qwaqwe PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:21 am
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Can you do all infantry team will have 10 soldiers?

Please make art and mortar  barrage more deadly.



Theoretical question, infantry unit has 10 slot for soldier, does it possible that 1st slot will be reserved for some sdk.fz. (for example hanomag 251) and 8 slot for panzer grenadiers? So after deploy on the map player will have pz grenadiers unit, hanomag + infantry?

#28: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: Schmal_Turm PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:11 pm
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So how many German battle groups vs Russian are we talking about here, and how many actual battle maps?

Do the German tank units also include the Elefant?

#29: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: Drizzt PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:34 pm
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southern_land wrote (View Post):
What maps are you using?  The old CC3/COI Kursk style maps?

Yes, too. I have included some old CC3 and COI kursk style maps (I have hardly ever played COI, so for me some of these maps are new), and I have added many others (CC3 kursk style or very similar) custom maps. Many of them (of course) are yours.
I have also included almost all the “z” (“z” = “Zitadelle” ?) series maps (4 of them) : it was your initial map work on this mod.
4 maps are Stalingrad style (the kind more similar to kursk) : they are maps never played in CC5/TLD mods. 12-13 maps are instead more green (Kharkov-Lvov style; z-series maps included).


qwaqwe wrote (View Post):
Can you do all infantry team will have 10 soldiers?

It could be done and I have used them in Kharkov, but:
1) it’s an “heritage” of CC3 code: last 3 men will not have more experience and medals (command screen limitation).
2) (and more important) : in 1943, 10 men rifle squads were not realistic (due to the manpower losses of previous years, platoons were re-organized), in particular this is true for germans.
So, I will not use them.


qwaqwe wrote (View Post):
Please make art and mortar barrage more deadly.

More deadly than the basic game? Sure, already done. More deadly than Kharkov or (TLD) Der Kessel mods? No, I think it’s not realistic.


qwaqwe wrote (View Post):
Theoretical question, infantry unit has 10 slot for soldier, does it possible that 1st slot will be reserved for some sdk.fz. (for example hanomag 251) and 8 slot for panzer grenadiers? So after deploy on the map player will have pz grenadiers unit, hanomag + infantry?

I’m sorry, but it’s impossible due to the game engine limitations (I can’t rewrite the code).


Last edited by Drizzt on Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

#30: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: Drizzt PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:47 pm
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Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post):
So how many German battle groups vs Russian are we talking about here, and how many actual battle maps?


44 maps. 64 BGs: 29 Germans; 35 soviets.

Schmal_Turm wrote (View Post):
Do the German tank units also include the Elefant?

No, Ferdinands were deployed only in the north sector of the battle, out the of the mod stratmap that it covers the south sector (where germans, historically, had made real progress).

#31: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: southern_land PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:32 am
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want a few more maps (3)  not completed yet but can be in a couple of weeks


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#32: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: Sequoia PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:01 am
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Hello:

About the tank killer teams or Istrebiteley Tankov, since I conducted the research for COI, it covered the entire 1941-45 period. Posted that link in my previous message because covered in detail the Infantry AT tactics.
I found mentions of the use of bottles with flammable liquid in orders and intructions from the whole war.
For example Order of the Western Front No. 0068 on the anti-tank defense of troops and methods of fighting heavy enemy tanks of the type T-VI ("Tiger"), signed by Col.-Gen. Sokolovsky mentions separate groups of tank destroyers with incendiary bottles, AT grenades, AT mines, smoke grenades and grenades.
Documents from the late war period still refers to the KS bottle as a weapon used for detachtment of tank destroyers, like "Operational Directive N0. 0016 of the HQ of the 1st Ukranian Front of May 4, 1944 on the issues of establishment and equipement of defenses, signed by Marshal Zhukov.  

Early war tank killer teams used bundles of RGD-33 grenades, by the time of Battle of Kursk the AT grenade RPG-43 with shaped charge was entering in service, and the AT Grenade RPG-6 was in use from October 1943 (RPG means "ruchnaya protivotankovaya granata", antitank hand grenade). Also the RPG-40 with HE in the initial period. Captured panzerfaust used in late war.

The info comes mainly from "Collection of Documents of the Great Patriotic War" that  I found in the russian version of wikisource with the help of google translate.

About squad size the soviets theoretically reduced from 11 to 9  the number of soldiers per squad, but in the practice was less.  

Bye.

#33: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: GameRat PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:07 am
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Great looking maps southern_land ... I can imagine a strat map with those quality of maps making a great CC game. Are these above maps historically location correct?

#34: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: GameRat PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:59 am
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Thanks Drizzt ... interesting and big project

#35: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: southern_land PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:02 am
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GameRat wrote (View Post):
Great looking maps southern_land ... I can imagine a strat map with those quality of maps making a great CC game. Are these above maps historically location correct?


Nah, a corruption of one of the Stalingrad maps and two existing Kursk CC3 maps

#36: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: qwaqwe PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:17 am
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Why crew of destroyed vehicle doesn't carry out an order (move, fire etc.) and can it be changed?

#37: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: Drizzt PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:44 pm
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Sequoia wrote (View Post):
Hello: About the tank killer teams or Istrebiteley Tankov, since I conducted the research for COI, it covered the entire 1941-45 period. Posted that link in my previous message because covered in detail the Infantry AT tactics.
I found mentions of the use of bottles with flammable liquid in orders and intructions from the whole war.
For example Order of the Western Front No. 0068 on the anti-tank defense of troops and methods of fighting heavy enemy tanks of the type T-VI ("Tiger"), signed by Col.-Gen. Sokolovsky mentions separate groups of tank destroyers with incendiary bottles, AT grenades, AT mines, smoke grenades and grenades.
Documents from the late war period still refers to the KS bottle as a weapon used for detachtment of tank destroyers, like "Operational Directive N0. 0016 of the HQ of the 1st Ukranian Front of May 4, 1944 on the issues of establishment and equipement of defenses, signed by Marshal Zhukov.  
Early war tank killer teams used bundles of RGD-33 grenades, by the time of Battle of Kursk the AT grenade RPG-43 with shaped charge was entering in service, and the AT Grenade RPG-6 was in use from October 1943 (RPG means "ruchnaya protivotankovaya granata", antitank hand grenade). Also the RPG-40 with HE in the initial period. Captured panzerfaust used in late war.
The info comes mainly from "Collection of Documents of the Great Patriotic War" that  I found in the russian version of wikisource with the help of google translate.
About squad size the soviets theoretically reduced from 11 to 9  the number of soldiers per squad, but in the practice was less. Bye.

Hi, thanks for the info.
- Your info and point of view about soviet AT tank teams at Kursk and the use of Molotov it’s the same as mine. I have replied to an user the same concepts (in a more hasty way).
- Yes, in 1943 Russians men in a team were less numerous than they should have been in theory.
- About AT grenades, The RGD-33 it wasn’t an AT grenade, it was the precursor of F1 (standard) anti-personnel (WW2) grenade. It has been replaced (slowly) by F1. I think it was still present in 1943, but in very few numbers. RPG-40 it was an AT grenade and yes, in 1943 it has entered in service the RPG-43 AT grenade, but I really doubt that in mid-1943 it was already present in great number among troops. I think that RPG-40 was still the more common in kursk battle.


southern_land wrote (View Post):
want a few more maps (3)  not completed yet but can be in a couple of weeks

Hi Southernland,

Thanks for the offer!
I have chosen maps with the following criteria:
- real combat terrain similarity (of course, with all the limits that they are present choosing custom maps instead to draw them specifically for that terrain)
- variety of maps. There are some maps very good in “kursk style” that I have discarded because too similar to other maps. For example, kursk5 it’s kursk1 without buildings, and ponyri map has the kursk1 village inside it. So I have discarded kursk1 map (a map that I really like) in order to use both ponyri and kursk5. I have done the same “discarding work” about similarity with maps with many hills.
- uniformity about map style (important, but the third). Anyway the 12 "more green" maps are regrouped in few points with a specific logic.
- Maps are never less big than 5mb.

Having said this, I have checked carefully your maps:
- First map it’s Stalingrad style. Transform the railroads in roads (deleting the train; don't create paved roads) and move the map in vertical with the trench complex and buildings that must be in the north: in this way I will use it in a very good way.
- Second map it’s a positive solution about buildings (a mix of two of the various blocks of the Kursk12 map) and very good about all the rest. I’m not sure how many secondary railroads were present in this area other than Belgorod-Kursk main railroad, but I will find for sure a place for this map. No extra work needed.
- Third map it’s similar to kursk2, but it’s almost usable and I like it. It needs a work not long. If you have will:  
1) complete or delete the first green camp under the buildings that are in the top left of the maps (“complete” = just add green crop where the camp, in the north part of it, it’s “devoured” by the other kind of terrain).
2) Delete at your choice one of the two main buildings located in the hill on the right part of the map.
3) Add some trees and remove the “light color” on the top of that hill.

About some other maps I have chosen: Caumt map series it’s yours.
- You say in a readme that Caumt5 terrain it’s tough for tanks to navigate. Can you recode some of these map elements to be less “punitive” for tanks?
- Can you delete the masonry block in top left of the water pool of caumt2 map replacing it with extra water? I want use this water pool as the Berezovyi Balka (instead, caumt1 map it’s good as it is, because I will use it as Kostroma lake and its closed system).
Another thing:
- lesna1 and/or kursk4 maps are yours? Anyway, even if they are not yours, in only one of these two maps (at your choice), can you change a bit the shape and/or the trenches of the hill located in the right part of the map?
Thanks for the attention.


qwaqwe wrote (View Post):

Why crew of destroyed vehicle doesn't carry out an order (move, fire etc.) and can it be changed?

It’s a coders choice. The soldier crews are coded in this way to prevent the player from being tempted to use them as scouts and/or expendable troops. It can be changed with modding, but I approve coders choice, so I will not change this aspect.

#38: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: southern_land PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:04 am
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How's this for CauMt5 (kursk)  All hills made flat tops, the elevation was 0-50 meters reduce to 0-10.  Trees redone and all tank stopping elements removed

grey scale image to show new elevations



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#39: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: qwaqwe PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:38 pm
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I am reading now description of Kursk battle.

1. Yes, molotov bottles were in use, but as i understand bottles and AT grenades were like a last chance weapon. Also infantry used AT mines.

2. Soviet units had a lot of AT rifles. A lot of AT artillery, 45mm, 53mm, 76mm, 85mm. Also some units had captured pak38, pak40 and flak 88.

3. A lot of 120 mortars, including ?-13 Katjusha. Sometimes they even destroyed tanks. I talked above that art. and mortar barrage should be more deadly, because in Kharkov mod they almost useless.

#40: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Author: qwaqwe PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:41 pm
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120 mortars i mean to m-13 (Katjusha).



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