Whats wrong with the fire?
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Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Last Stand Arnhem
#1: Whats wrong with the fire? Author: DerZimtstern,  PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:50 pm
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I recently bought this game out of recommendation and I find it pretty neat but something started bothering me the longer I tried it: The fire of my toops is inherently inaccurate.

I played around with supression, troop experience and troop types. The result: With the exeption of heavy machineguns and snipers all infantry troops cant hit the broad side of a barn no matter their are unsupressed and highly experienced. Even on closer range (75m-15m). The hardest hitter is often the organic machinegun of a group but just because of the fact that it fires much more ammo in the same time. As long as troops are not caught on the move and/or in the open this results in an firework of tracers from both sides were reliably no one manages to hit anything, dragging out firefights really long which often end not because one side was deafeaded but because one ran out of ammo. If the cover is decent the incoming fire isnt even noticeable supressive. Even tough troops are show as fully supressed they keep firing back aimed fire. Only Explosives or insane volume of fire manage to keep a well dug in enemy supressed to ineffectivness. And if I manage to catch an enemy on the move in the open my first burst of fire actually has a decent hitchance until they hit the deck and then it still takes me quite a pile of ammo to mange to hit them regardless if they mange to return effective fire which could supress me (for which they would have plenty time if they wouldnt be supressed themself. Why do they even get supressed on totally open ground? As if looking on the ground would make you less visible when totally exposed...).

I thought this game trys to portaiy combat as realistic as its possible for it. As far as I know marksmenship was held up high these times but instead I get a horde of stormtroopers which manage nothing more than plaster the general direction of the enemy. So either I havnt understood a combat meachnic which would resolve the issue or messed something other up or I see no other explaination but to interpret this nerf of accuracy of regular troops as a dull way to force the player to resove all combat with enemies with reasonable cover by (very dangerous) assault. Not to mop them up but to inflict notice damage. I really wonder why this was done. So it gets more tacticool? It just looks really stupid when two squads shoot at each other from 50m away several minutes, expending hundred rounds of ammuition until the first casualty happens. I would really like to fix that.
#2: Re: Whats wrong with the fire? Author: JFFulcrum,  PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:46 pm
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Well, let`s start from controversial movie 'The truth about killing'. Many was argued against it`s statements, guess that those who was on the frontline know the truth (i`m personally was happy enough not to got into battlefield during my service time).

Second, the ammo spending was really enormous that times. For example, in 1944 on eastern front Soviet army used some 3 billion rifle&mg ammo, about 2.6 billion pistol&smg ammo, funny - but 16 mil Nagant revolver ammo. German in return spend some 4.2 billion rifle&mg ammo, 450 mil pistol&smg ammo, and even 164 mil ammo for assault rifles like FG42&StG44. Numbers clearly tells us, that most of that was wasted.

The CC modelling is all about morale - under heavy fire morale severely detoriates, and if opposite commander make a cleaver move - attack from second direction, mortar strike, tank advance - enemy unit may become broken and flee/surrender. If not - well - the advance is always troublesome that defense.
#3: Re: Whats wrong with the fire? Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:08 pm
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Factors that affect effectiveness are mostly determined by the values in the weapons file. Other factors are for instance body armor, chance to hit body or head, elements protection values, experience level, stance of the soldiers. It's complicated  Smile  
Even though I have made several mods, I don't pretend to know how this all comes together.
#4: Re: Whats wrong with the fire? Author: Pzt_Crackwise, Location: Switzerland PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:18 am
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I believe the longer fire fights are quite realistic in the case of units who are taking cover. This is actually one of the best aspects of CC in contrast to RTS games, the firefights can last really long if both sides have decent cover. Apart from making the gameplay much more realistic, it also makes it really interesting since it usually gives the player enough time to react. You can try flanking the enemy team, lay mortar fire, call in airstrike etc.

This is also the reason why CC is not a game where the fastest clicking multitasking player wins (when playing multiplayer), but the one with the better understanding of tactics and combined arms principles. It is the reason why CC is so awesome Smile
#5: Re: Whats wrong with the fire? Author: Schmal_Turm,  PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:59 pm
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I had read about this subject from the book On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by the same Dave Grossman featured in the movie listed by JFFulcrum. According to the book, it was because of those abysmal figures that the U.S. Army decided they needed a comprehensive program to turn our men into killers for the war in Vietnam. Maybe that was a major reason that after the war some men had trouble readjusting to civilian life, and maybe for a number of travesties in combat where some men could indiscriminately kill women and children. Although there were other circumstances such as women and children used as combatants. Not trying to say anything to denigrate our troops at all.
#6: Re: Whats wrong with the fire? Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:24 pm
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some of us agree that the accuracy of weapons...mostly tank guns etc are just stupid...yes...you cant hit the broad side of a barn at 50 m...been there seen it many many times.
according to matrix they did this on purpose in LSA and after...to cut down on the 1 shot 1 kill. IMO and others as well ...they went to far.

new to LSA and after CC games is the issue of suppression. suppression plays a huge factor now in how your troops react and the " accuracy of there return fire "
this is mostly what your seeing derzimtstern. when your squad comes under fire and if it was under fire 1st from enemy fire...its accuracy and amount of return fire goes WAY down. the only to stop this is to retreat out of LOS and enemy fire and or gain fire superiority thru bringing in other squads to support you.
this is even true in tank duels...if you don't get the 1st shot off...theres is a really good chance ur going to lose the tank duel. [ not always but....]
one of the few guns that can counter this to a point is the German MG 42...because of its high rate of fire.
Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Last Stand Arnhem


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