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Close Combat Series -> The Mess

#301: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: mooxe,

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:39 pm
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Berger wrote (View Post):

Just like annexation of Crimea, uprising in Donbass and russian invasion are the response to Maidan coup that overthrow president Yanukovych.

I get your point but its not "just like." These events are extremely complicated and highly unique with years, sometimes hundreds of years of history that led to the current situation. This is part of the reason why whataboutism doesn't work. I understand why some people paint in broad strokes to explain these issues though... its easy.

#302: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: dj,

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:52 am
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Berger wrote (View Post):

Turkey launched days ago Operation Claw Lock in Irak. I'm waiting for US sanctions, Josep Borrell's statement against the invasion and a boycott against Turkish soap operas actors who don't condemn aggresion.

Main point is not whataboutism, it's whynotism. Why can't Russia do what the West has been doing for decades?

Meanwhile... Selfies in a minefield with predictable end
https://twitter.com/tinso_ww/status/1516541541132775431

Because this why the West does NOT commit genocide in post WW2 era. The West also doesn't teach their Troops to hate and encourage torture, then during the dead bodies to hide evidence, mass executions of civilians and forced re-locations of civilian populations against their will back to our countries. Only Russia does that. Putin-Ivan the Terrible has become the most hated man in the world since Hitler.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/17/world/europe/ukraine-war-russia-atrocities.html

"...the crimes in Ukraine may also stem from the Kremlin’s years of dehumanizing propaganda against Ukrainians, which soldiers consume in required viewings. Russian conscripts, a sample schedule available on the Russian Defense Ministry’s website shows, must sit through “informational television programs” from 9 to 9:40 p.m. every day but Sunday. The message that they are fighting “Nazis” — as their forefathers did in World War II — is now being spread through the military, Russian news reports show".

and in Russian:
https://www.kp.ru/daily/27374.5/4566621/

#303: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:23 pm
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Quote:

the West does NOT commit genocide in post WW2 era

The whole word 'genocide' is so much misused, that it near totally worn out. Truth is that no one cares much about foreign civilians in their wars. But every failing side want to become new jews. Even despite that jews themselves are proceeding oppressions to Israel neighbors.

Quote:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/17/world/europe/ukraine-war-russia-atrocities.html

Another very careful 'analytic'. Some high-profile trials of military personnel for war crimes after Chechnya - ignore them. Presence of military police in Russian army - ignore it too (well, MP is a relatively new unit in russian military, many well-aware analytics still misses its formation). Systematic forgeries of 'war crimes', sometimes even filmed in other places - ignore, ignore, ignore. Nothing differ with RT/Sputnik lines, just sides and some words changes.

#304: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: dj,

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 2:31 am
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Trying to keep an open mind here...but as the excellent NY Times article cited, there's just a very bad track record. Let's say for argument's sake assuming that Russian Military Prosecutor did in fact charge soldiers for war crimes against Chechnya, why wasn't it published or made public? Just not credible.

Russia actually is the one that started the false flag ridiculous assertions of Ukrainians committing genocide against ethnic Russians. Which according to my decoding formula means that really Russia is the one committing genocide.

And the West does have its own war crimes, that is true. But the difference is that we do have criminal trials against the accused, media invited and well documented. Like the shameful rapes and murders of of Japanese women by American military personnel. The perpetrators were tried, apologies made to the Japanese government and the servicemen are still in jail today.

#305: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:30 pm
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Quote:

Let's say for argument's sake assuming that Russian Military Prosecutor did in fact charge soldiers for war crimes against Chechnya, why wasn't it published or made public?

First. Because we no longer have classic wars, there is no martial law. So all trials on Chechnya was on civilian criminal procedures. Military prosecutors was involved only in part.
Second. Trials over soldiers had not so well media coverage, like trials over officers (Ulman, Budanov, Arakcheev, Lapin, etc). But they had place.
Third. Of course, not much investigations was pushed to final parts. Only a relatively small part of them. But all chechen warriors was fall into amnesty. Only those, who did terroristic acts outside Chechnya, was still under warrants and prosecutions. Yes, that means that there was no war crimes from chechen side. Russian people (and people from other nations), killed by chechen rebels in Chechnya, have no right to justice. Bad peace better that good war, OK. Thus hard to find any support for continuation of war crime studies in Checnhya in Russia. Because they will be one-sided.

#306: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: dj,

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:35 pm
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Yes but if Crimes committed by Active Duty military, the Russians I would assume have their own independent military prosecutors either during war or peace.

Technically, it's like this....the side that "loses" wars are subjected to Prosecution of War Crimes. The side that "wins" is very rarely held accountable. So unless someone in Russia overthrows Putin-Ivan the Terrible, nothing will happen if even EU proves their case with evidence documentation. And Russia evaded all accountability for WW2 war crimes, or even the aggression against Finland / Baltics when they were in Alliance with Nazi's pre-'41.

I have never seen any credible evidence of Russian prosecution of war crimes against any of their personnel. Then again Russia has essentially been controlled by State media dictatorship / USSR past 100+ years so there's lack of transparency. Unlike this ample evidence of Western Militaries being held accountable for their own misdeeds.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42192571

#307: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:54 pm
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Well, its for three weeks Bucha under Ukrainian control. Is there a public list of victims? Their relatives likely in search of their lost ones. But list of claimed perpetuators already there, and it includes soldiers who was dead in first days of invasion, and soldiers, who never was in Bucha. And what about investigations, if victims are buried without even autopsy: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61085810 (and even western journalist take notes of many dead without being shot. And that part about russian 7.62 mm ammo... Both Russian and Ukraininan regular army uses 5.45 AK-74 and successors ammo, 7.62 is used by ukrainian paramilitary and territorial defense, armed with dated original AKs from reserves). But who cares? Now wars are proceed in media, and for media you need a stream of events, nobody cares about details. The shit must flow, and all the UN/OSCE/whatever investigator teams are successfully replaced by Bellincat...for 'reality based communities'.

#308: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:15 pm
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What elements of the Russian military use 7.62mm ammunition?

Where is the info on the dead in Bucha who were not shot?

#309: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:21 am
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Quote:

What elements of the Russian military use 7.62mm ammunition?

Spetsnaz have weapons of 7.62 mm, specially PKP machine gun. But with weight over 8 kg its not a weapon for close fights inside buildings.

Quote:

Where is the info on the dead in Bucha who were not shot?

Read the BBC article above. It notes people who died because lack of medical assistance and carbon monoxide poisoning due to improvised heatings.

#310: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 3:01 pm
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JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):

Quote:

What elements of the Russian military use 7.62mm ammunition?

Spetsnaz have weapons of 7.62 mm, specially PKP machine gun. But with weight over 8 kg its not a weapon for close fights inside buildings.

Quote:

Where is the info on the dead in Bucha who were not shot?

Read the BBC article above. It notes people who died because lack of medical assistance and carbon monoxide poisoning due to improvised heatings.

I found it. If there is an investigation those deaths will likely not be included as war crimes.

Two 7.62mm shell casings on the floor supporting your implied theory that the UA murdered Vitaliy Brezhnev (and likely others) is very weak.

I could not find any eye witness accounts or videos of the UA performing war crimes in Bucha. What have you found?

https://vot-tak.tv/novosti/03-04-2022-rasstrely-zhitelej-buchi/

#311: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: paratmar,

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:21 am
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dj wrote (View Post):

Yes but if Crimes committed by Active Duty military, the Russians I would assume have their own independent military prosecutors either during war or peace.

Technically, it's like this....the side that "loses" wars are subjected to Prosecution of War Crimes. The side that "wins" is very rarely held accountable. So unless someone in Russia overthrows Putin-Ivan the Terrible, nothing will happen if even EU proves their case with evidence documentation. And Russia evaded all accountability for WW2 war crimes, or even the aggression against Finland / Baltics when they were in Alliance with Nazi's pre-'41.

I have never seen any credible evidence of Russian prosecution of war crimes against any of their personnel. Then again Russia has essentially been controlled by State media dictatorship / USSR past 100+ years so there's lack of transparency. Unlike this ample evidence of Western Militaries being held accountable for their own misdeeds.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42192571

And as I said befor - Ivan not the terrible, right to say - the Grozny) or for correct translate - Redoubtable (for exemple - "It was one of those moments when he was exercising without control, but subject to all the scruples of a severe conscience, his redoubtable discretionary power.") It's important understand of his nickname correctly).

#312: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:43 am
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Quote:

Yes but if Crimes committed by Active Duty military, the Russians I would assume have their own independent military prosecutors either during war or peace.

To use wartime laws such a wartime should be declared. But it wasn`t. So military prosecutors can only prepare some papers for civilian court. Furthermore, in peace times, criminal proceedings can be started only by exact military unit commander. So in case of, for example, indirect rocket strike on civilian area, there will be not a warcrime investigation, but regular crime investigation, like murder, and accusation will include only partially articles, directly related to military servicemen duties, specially 'Violation of the rules for handling weapons and objects that pose an increased danger to others'.

Ukraine laws are nearly the same, so both sides carefully avoid war declarations - to avoid consequences and responsibility.

#313: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:54 am
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Ulman, Budanov, Arakcheev, Lapin - all were accused of regular, peacetime crimes - murder, robbery, kidnapping, and received 10+ years of prison sentences, although their cases had far from justice and the fulfilment on sentences was greatly distorted. Same was with trials over soldiers.

#314: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:30 am
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New Ukrainian strike, now at Bryansk:
https://t.me/SergeyKolyasnikov/32144
https://vk.com/wall-123538639_2485502?ysclid=l2eggsu73o

Consequences of smart decision to withdraw from Kyiv continues

#315: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: dj,

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:11 am
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Genocide is defined as:

"intent to destroy, in whole or in part a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"

- UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

#316: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: paratmar,

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:04 am
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/04/23/tech-giants-forced-tackle-russian-disinformation/
the "freedom of word" is end? ?nd this is happen when Ilona Mask buy the Twitter. ?oincidence? I do not think so)

#317: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:41 am
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[img]https://images.wsj.net/im-377624?width=1280&size=1.77777778[/img]

#318: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: mooxe,

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:16 pm
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Under what circumstances does Russia need to use nuclear weapons for this invasion?

#319: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: dj,

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:07 am
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Russian Nuclear Sabre-rattling getting out of hand. I assume Russia isn't foolish enough to test M.A.D. and would rather use tactical nuke retaliatory strike on supply convoys or weapons base, etc.

And Russia seems to have abandoned urban assaults will focus on massive offensive in open terrain instead. Looks like Russia is prepping for offensive soon in the East. If things keep going back for Russia they might start getting desperate.

#320: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: paratmar,

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:16 am
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dj wrote (View Post):

Russian Nuclear Sabre-rattling getting out of hand. I assume Russia isn't foolish enough to test M.A.D. and would rather use tactical nuke retaliatory strike on supply convoys or weapons base, etc.

And Russia seems to have abandoned urban assaults will focus on massive offensive in open terrain instead. Looks like Russia is prepping for offensive soon in the East. If things keep going back for Russia they might start getting desperate.

Well, so far things are only getting better in Russia: the currency is getting cheaper against the ruble, there is a surplus in the budget, prices are falling).

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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