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#601: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: paratmar,

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:36 am
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Should the Ukraine start hitting targets in Russia?

Power plants, bridges etc?

The question should rather sound like this: In connection with the large-scale use of NATO weapons against targets on the territory of Russia,
Should Russia start hitting targets in Poland?

Power plants, bridges, railway junctions, etc.?

#602: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:00 am
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Should the Ukraine start hitting targets in Russia?

Power plants, bridges etc?

Probably you missed multiple strikes at Belgorod just some posts above, drone attack on Rostov oil refinery, sabotage on Kursk nuclear plant powerlines and other examples of such.

#603: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:17 am
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https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/forsta-bilderna-fran-sprangda-gasroret-pa-ostersjons-botten/

Sweden also leaves combined investigation with Germany. Norway and Danmark also proceeding separately. With such many investigators no-one will be found definitely.

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#604: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: mooxe,

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:37 pm
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JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):

mooxe wrote (View Post):

Should the Ukraine start hitting targets in Russia?

Power plants, bridges etc?

Probably you missed multiple strikes at Belgorod just some posts above, drone attack on Rostov oil refinery, sabotage on Kursk nuclear plant powerlines and other examples of such.

Are these attacks justified?

#605: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: mooxe,

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:39 pm
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paratmar wrote (View Post):

mooxe wrote (View Post):

Should the Ukraine start hitting targets in Russia?

Power plants, bridges etc?

Why does it matter who supplies Ukraine weapons? Are they not free to accept weapons from anyone?

#606: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: Berger,

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:25 pm
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A Russian attack on Poland is an attack on NATO with all that that implies.

Ukraine is free to use all means to defend itself and Russia is free to use all means to win this war.

Now, EU will train 15000 Ukrainian soldiers. One more step towards escalation.

#607: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:04 pm
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Kherson city evacuation started, claims by Russian command that Ukraine will blow the Kakhovka dam on Dnepr, combined with emergency drop of water from power plants up to the river. The likely response will be heavy strikes on remaining ukrainian power plants.

#608: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:11 pm
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Like nearly all the wars from WWII, this 'war' is also not a war legally, so nobody cares about rules or justifications.

Quote:

My solution to the problem would be to tell them frankly that they've got to draw in their horns and stop their aggression, or we’re going to bomb them back into the Stone Age. And we would shove them back into the Stone Age.

US Air Force Gen.Curtis LeMay

#609: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: mooxe,

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:18 pm
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Berger wrote (View Post):

A Russian attack on Poland is an attack on NATO with all that that implies.

Ukraine is free to use all means to defend itself and Russia is free to use all means to win this war.

Now, EU will train 15000 Ukrainian soldiers. One more step towards escalation.

Why is Russia free to use all means to win the war?

#610: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: Berger,

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:51 pm
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Because his status as major power is at stake. Russia can't afford a defeat in Ukraine and I think if in (the very remote) case of being on a verge of defeat in a conventional war, the Bear will play the Nuke card.

USA lost in Vietnam and Afghanistan. Well, sometimes shit happens and life goes on, being defeated in these wars did not endanger the country status or USA existence.

Now, Im seeing during my daily commutes an EU propaganda poster asking us to tighten our belts. Well, I don't give a s**t for Zelenski and his Banderites.

#611: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: mooxe,

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:40 pm
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You're reasoning is... Russia is free to use all means to win this war because they need to remain a major power.

Free to use all means, implies using nuclear weapons.

If you think the Russia will use nuclear weapons to win a war against the Ukraine, why support Russia at all? The use of nuclear weapons even if only a few are used against Ukraine will change life as we know it for everyone negatively all over the world.

Berger, your reasoning makes no sense.

#612: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: dj,

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:40 am
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Berger wrote (View Post):

Because his status as major power is at stake. Russia can't afford a defeat in Ukraine and I think if in (the very remote) case of being on a verge of defeat in a conventional war, the Bear will play the Nuke card.

USA lost in Vietnam and Afghanistan. Well, sometimes shit happens and life goes on, being defeated in these wars did not endanger the country status or USA existence.

Now, Im seeing during my daily commutes an EU propaganda poster asking us to tighten our belts. Well, I don't give a s**t for Zelenski and his Banderites.

Russia is engaged in a War of Attrition. They could theoretically keep fighting in Ukraine for the next 10 or 20 years to "win". What would that look like? Yet another Soviet style military occupation to force populations to comply to their rule, against their will. Does Russia have the internal support of their own people to continue this war indefinitely? Do they even have the financial resources or manpower willing to sacrifice their lives? And don't think Martial Law will have the desired affect either, to force Ukrainians against their will to serve in militias to fight for Putin.

USA didn't "lose" Vietnam nor Afganistan, rather these wars were simply not worth the financial or human costs along with lack of public support. Nor were they any tangible objectives other than just occupation police forces to keep Government forces intact. Which is Biden withdrew, 20 years was enough and Afganistan prefers Islamic theocratic state like Iranian style.

What nation are you in Berger and why do you prefer Autocratic-Dictatorship rule vs Liberal Democracies of EU? Just trying to understand.

#613: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: paratmar,

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:27 am
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To my deep regret, Berger is right, because he argues strategically and on the basis of objective factors and not personal wishes. Abstract if you can from your preferences and you ccould
do reasoning like Berger. At least start by realizing the fact that Russia is not at war with Ukraine, but with NATO proxy on the territory of Ukraine, and much will become clear).

#614: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: paratmar,

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:47 am
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Total annihilation - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_VHf4puZ4_k

#615: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:33 am
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Quote:

And don't think Martial Law will have the desired affect either, to force Ukrainians against their will to serve in militias to fight for Putin.

We in capitalism now, capitalism have a much more effective ways to persuade people to fight in wars, that socialism ever imagine. Just make a soldier' job' an almost single opportunity to earn money for life and families, and your will likely be with no shortages of recruits, as well shown in Somalia, Afghanistan and US itself https://www.redbrick.me/us-military-recruitment-and-the-weaponization-of-poverty/ , https://panthernow.com/2020/07/27/how-military-recruitment-targets-low-income-schools-and-why-thats-a-problem/ . And it will be easier to achieve now, because, unlike communists, Putin`s capitalist dogs are not interested in industrialisation, including heavy and hi-tech, like USSR did in Eastern Europe after WWII. No-no, there will be EU-like policy for Eastern Europe, with most complicated manufacture is a McDonalds potato factory and main employment is 'gastarbeiter' in more advanced countries, working for more equal animals.

#616: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: Berger,

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:41 pm
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Im speaking about the use of tactical nukes, just enough to obliterate a logistical hub or an armored brigade. I don't think Russia wants to convert Ukraine in a wasteland and I don't think NATO will respond to Russian forces in case of tactical nuclear weapon use (one thing is to feed a proxy war in Ukraine and another very different take the risk of a global nuclear war against Moscow).

EU/NATO are funneling billions into Ukraine. Russia can't win an economic war against the West in the long run and the western military aid makes Ukrainian army stronger the more time passes so it makes perfect sense and eventually the benefit will outweight the costs.

Russia must cripple the ukrainian logistics and break the flow of western supplies, hence the drone campaign targeting the ukraine power grid. It is a late step in the right direction, but better late than never.

Of course, every decision has a disadvantage: western population can be upset seeing millions spent into Ukraine while they are being poorer, Russian energy blackmail can be ineffective...

Only thing for sure is the war can stop right now if China and India severes economic ties with Russia (But I can't think of any reason why this would benefit the Chinese and Indians).

Quote:

Yet another Soviet style military occupation to force populations to comply to their rule, against their will.

I disagree. Sure theres a part of Ukraine clearly anti-russian (Lvov, for example), but theres another pro-russian (Odessa, for example).

I'm from Spain, just like Josep Borrell.

Schadenfreude in this link XD
https://www.publico.es/politica/josep-borrell-denuncia-le-han.html

#617: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: dj,

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:40 am
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Ok Berger so you're from Spain. Still didn't see answer to my question why do you prefer Autocratic-Dictatorship rule vs Liberal Democracies of EU?

Also don't follow your assertions that if Ukraine remains free nation, it endangers the status of Russian state or their existence. The logic makes no sense, maybe something lost in translation. Because Ukraine has already been independent sovereign nation independent of Russia for past 30 years. Why all of a sudden now after Russia invades does that present a problem? You're right about if USA leaves Vietnam and Afganistan, life goes on and very little impact. So if Russia admits defeat at some point in the future, they still have their nation also.

Fact of the matter is that when the Soviet Union collapsed, it was agreed upon by all parties involved including Russia to honor and respect the negotiated terms to let the nations that wanted to opt out and be separate from Russia. Also it is well known fact that Ukraine has long sought independence from Russia for almost 100 years, nothing new. Very few people in Ukraine, even ethnic Russians want to be part of Russia it's the opposite and not in Odessa. This is why at first, Ukraine celebrated when the Germans invaded and received warm welcome for this reason.

#618: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: dj,

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:56 am
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paratmar wrote (View Post):

start by realizing the fact that Russia is not at war with Ukraine, but with NATO proxy on the territory of Ukraine, and much will become clear).

So Ukraine does not exist as legitimate sovereign nation then because they receive arms from NATO member countries?

Russia gave $, arms, weapons systems, jets and even used their own regular Air Force pilots to fight the West in Korea and other proxy wars. Because South Korea did not want to be part of Communist China syndicate state. Like how Ukraine is not interested in being syndicate state for Putin.

#619: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: JFFulcrum,

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:14 pm
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Quote:

Fact of the matter is that when the Soviet Union collapsed, it was agreed upon by all parties involved including Russia to honor and respect the negotiated terms to let the nations that wanted to opt out and be separate from Russia.

Facts are that 'agreement' was made but just three man and never materialized into full documents, and even that under-the-table agreements Ukraine did not respect from start, like fate of USSR debts and loans. Facts are that more than half of former soviet republics already proclaimed independence and some even accepted constitutions with terms, directly contradicting 'agreement'. Facts are that adapted just summer by quasi-parliament USSR law about exit from USSR was not respected by anyone. Facts are that already was seven civil/international wars proceeded at time of 'agreement' on territory of former USSR, so that parties was too busy to honor anything...

Quote:

Also it is well known fact that Ukraine has long sought independence from Russia for almost 100 years, nothing new. Very few people in Ukraine, even ethnic Russians want to be part of Russia it's the opposite and not in Odessa. This is why at first, Ukraine celebrated when the Germans invaded and received warm welcome for this reason.

Thats the fate of Ukraine to be a plasticine in hands of powers that be. Lithuania, Hungary, Turkey, Austria, Germany, Soviets, Poland, Germany again, collective West - all traded with mirage of independence for people on that territories, to own their minds. And people always suffered from attempts to reach that mirage.

#620: Re: War in Ukraine? Author: Berger,

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:47 pm
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dj wrote (View Post):

Still didn't see answer to my question why do you prefer Autocratic-Dictatorship rule vs Liberal Democracies of EU?

My preferences are off-topic. I don't hide my sympathies for Russia and here I give my opinion on what I think Russia should do to win this war.

dj wrote (View Post):

don't follow your assertions that if Ukraine remains free nation, it endangers the status of Russian state or their existence. The logic makes no sense, maybe something lost in translation. Because Ukraine has already been independent sovereign nation independent of Russia for past 30 years. Why all of a sudden now after Russia invades does that present a problem? You're right about if USA leaves Vietnam and Afganistan, life goes on and very little impact. So if Russia admits defeat at some point in the future, they still have their nation also.

Belarus has been an independent sovereign state for past 30 years, so the logic is clear.

For the Russian national interest:

Good -> independent countries integrated in EAEU & CSTO, like Belarus or Kazakhstan
Bad -> independent countries trying to be members of EU and NATO, like Ukraine or Georgia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Organization

Ukraine was in a unstable balance between West and East until the 2014 Coup d'état that ousted Yanukovych and spurred the war. In 2014 Russia did a mistake stopping at Crimea instead of taking over Ukraine and installing a pro-russian government when it was an easy job.

Now a defeat implies that Russia will become a second-rate country unable of fulfilling its imperial ambitions, unable of governing his backyard and showing its weakness to neighbors and vassals.

And I do not exclude that Belarus will get more involved in the war. If Putin falls, Lukashenko is the next target. The West is repeating in Belarus the same scheme as in Ukraine, backing puppets as democratic opposition (for example, Svetlana Tikhanovskaya, now exiled).

Maybe Uncle Sasha will not join the war but a build-up of Belarussian forces in the border will distract Ukrainian units from other areas.

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