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Close Combat Series -> Close Combat 5: Invasion Normandy

#1: Back in Berlin Author: robg, Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:56 pm
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Is there any way to increase the expirience and morale of the 9th parachute division in the battle of Berlin ? Confused

I was in a research in Christmas holyday, and could see that the 4th parachute division was beeing hard pressed by the americans in the Ardenes.
Then, one regiment (about 6.000 men) were sent to Berlin, to defend the city against the Soviet ivasion.
There they were renamed as the 9th parachute division, even beeing far short of division strenght (about 20.000 men).
So they were battle experienced !
Can anybody confirm it ?

Maybe Sapa can use this information, if some day he decides to resume his project - Battle of Berlin 2.

Regards,
Rob

#2: Author: Guest,

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:38 pm
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That was real news! From my info about this unit, no one of its members had ever jumped from an aeroplane....but i could be wrong.

Mats

#3: Author: HistoryTeaches, Location: Germany

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:38 pm
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no jumping out of a plane does not mean that their not battlehardened Wink

#4: Author: Nembo,

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:21 am
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While paratroopers from the 4th FJ may have made up part of the 9th FJ, most of the 9th FJ was made up of fragmented Werhrmacht groups and Luftwaffe personl hurridly retrained as infantry. So while some of the soldiers may have been veterns, most of the divison was of lesser quality. As it was the divison did not come together as a whole till, 8th April, only eight days before the Russian army slammed into it completly wiping out parts of the divison and shattering the rest into different groups.

You can check out
http://www.eagle19.freeserve.co.uk/russia.htm
for more info.

P.S.
I take it thats you sapa who made the second post.

#5: Author: Guest,

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:03 am
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HistoryTeaches wrote:

no jumping out of a plane does not mean that their not battlehardened Wink

Thats true! But i thought that was the first demand if you call yourself a "fallschirmjäger"?.....

#6: Author: Nembo,

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:05 am
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Nearly half of the FJ divisons weren't jump qualified at all.

#7: Author: Sapa,

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:08 am
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Nembo wrote:

Nearly half of the FJ divisons weren't jump qualified at all.

Thanks Nembo! Yes it was me! I forget to log in, it thought you had to log in to make a post, stupid me! Laughing

Cheers Mats

#8: Author: sobibor,

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:43 am
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Due to high casualties in Kreta operations, Hitler forbade airborne operations. Parachute units were used as regular infantry divisions after 1940 so it is probably that this units had combat expirience but no made any combat jump

#9: Author: Sapa,

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:02 am
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sobibor wrote:

Due to high casualties in Kreta operations, Hitler forbade airborne operations. Parachute units were used as regular infantry divisions after 1940 so it is probably that this units had combat expirience but no made any combat jump

Ahhh..if i get this right, they could have Volksturm or HitlerJugend units with battle experience in FJ uniforms and call them Fallschirmjäger?

Mats :zzz

#10: Author: HistoryTeaches, Location: Germany

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:37 pm
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only to boost morale and fake information for the enemy Wink

#11: Author: robg, Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:12 pm
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Sapa wrote:

Nembo wrote:

Nearly half of the FJ divisons weren't jump qualified at all.

Thanks Nembo! Yes it was me! I forget to log in, it thought you had to log in to make a post, stupid me! Laughing

Cheers Mats

Hi Sapa,

If some day you resume Battle of Berlin 2, could you increase the performance of the paratroopers ?
As we could see some of them were experienced. I feel lack of any mortar too. Wink

I recomend for all interested in WWII "Grandfather's tale", a book written for a german sniper, that served as a paratrooper from 1939 to 1945, and was at Berlin at the time of the battle, with the renamed 9th parachute division.

Cheers,
Rob

#12: Author: Nembo,

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:57 pm
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I don't think seeing old men and young boys in the army realy helps moral, as useing them is a obvious sign of desperation. Nor do I think the Russians cared much if it was a FJ or a Werhrmacht divison. In 1945 only two FJ divisons were fighting on the Eastern Front the 9th on the Oder and the 10th in Austria, both were brand new units with large numbers of Lufwaffe ground crew retrained as infantry. The only elite paratroopers on the eastern front in 1945 were the SS Fallschirmjäger Battalion 600, they fought on the oder before being pushed northeast of berlin by the Russians.

Crete was in 1941, after that the served as elite infantry, all the old FJ divisons formed before 1944 were of high quality but by 1945 the were only FJ in name.

Grandfather's tale, has has a good number of inaccuries, take for example the famous assault on Eben Emael in 1940, he tells in the book that it was a parachute jump when infact it was an assault using only gliders.

Overall I don't think the 9th FJ should be increased in experience, for starts they had only been operating as whole divison for eight days before the Russians slammed into them.

#13: Author: Sapa,

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:04 pm
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In Antony Beevors Berlin book it says that the 9th FJ Division was running from the battlefield until units from 11.SS Nordland gave them curage to pick up the fight....(it must have been Swedes Wink

)

Cheers Mats

#14: Author: Nembo,

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:39 pm
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Heinrici himself was worried about the 9th FJ as he himself told Hitler, "the 9th Parachute Divison worries me. Its commanders and noncommissioned officers are nearly all former administration officers, both untrained and unaccustomed to lead fighting units."

Goering who was present suddenly bristled. "My paratroopers!" he said in a load voice. "You are talking about my paratroopers! They are the best in existence! I won't listen to such degrading remarks! I personally guarantee thier fighting capabilities!"

"Your view, Herr Reichsmarschall," remarked Heinrici icily, "is somewhat biased. I'm not saying anything against your troops, but experience has taught me that untrained units-especally those led by green officers-are often so terribly shicked by thier first exposure to artillery bombardment that they are not much good for anything thereafter."

Hitler then when on to tell Heinrici that the units must be trained before the battle. Heinrici told replyed that all was and would continue to be done to prepare the divison but that, "Training will not give them combat experience, and that is what's lacking."

From Ryan Cornelius, the Last Battle.

#15: Author: robg, Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:44 pm
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Nembo wrote:

Heinrici himself was worried about the 9th FJ as he himself told Hitler, "the 9th Parachute Divison worries me. Its commanders and noncommissioned officers are nearly all former administration officers, both untrained and unaccustomed to lead fighting units."

Goering who was present suddenly bristled. "My paratroopers!" he said in a load voice. "You are talking about my paratroopers! They are the best in existence! I won't listen to such degrading remarks! I personally guarantee thier fighting capabilities!"

"Your view, Herr Reichsmarschall," remarked Heinrici icily, "is somewhat biased. I'm not saying anything against your troops, but experience has taught me that untrained units-especally those led by green officers-are often so terribly shicked by thier first exposure to artillery bombardment that they are not much good for anything thereafter."

Hitler then when on to tell Heinrici that the units must be trained before the battle. Heinrici told replyed that all was and would continue to be done to prepare the divison but that, "Training will not give them combat experience, and that is what's lacking."

From Ryan Cornelius, the Last Battle.

Well, thanks for the information Nembo.
All my observantions had the propose to help, I realy have this mod as the one I like the most.
However, I think we should consider the informations of people who was there too ! Smile

#16: Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:31 am
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Sapa are you preparing another update in the foreseeable future?

#17: Author: AA_Megadeth,

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:37 pm
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sobibor wrote:

Thats not correct, the operation in crete was a disaster for the german airborne from a casualty perspective, and Hitler was appalled, but he didnt forbid airborne operations. There were several german jump operations after 1940, but not on the same scale and unsupported. The germans never performed a divisional jump after 1940, but there were several battalion level jumps in Russia, and even one during the battle of the buldge.

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