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#61: Author: Pzt_Crackwise, Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 8:10 am
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Hey guys I have a question. There are three types of panthers in GJS as far as I have seen, mark VA, mark VD and mark VG. What are the differences between these and which one is the strongest? And also there is the sherman II, sherman III and sherman V, if I'm not mistaken. The same question applies to these also.

#62: air strikes vs. armor in Normandy Author: Deshrex,

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:34 am
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I wouldn't sell too short the ability of the Allies to hit individual German tanks. Here is some info that I found in John Keegan's book 'Six Armies in Normandy.'

This info pertains to the German counterattack at Avranches and Mortain, what the Germans called Operation Luttich, starting August 7.

According to Keegan, the Allies knew the attack was coming due to the cracking of the German military code. American fighters flew combat air patrol sorties over Paris to interdict German fighters sortieing to support the German attack. Medium bombers were used to bomb the German supply routes. And 60 lb. rocket carrying English Typhoons were free to range the battlefield seeking targets. Keegan says (p.248) that on Aug. 7, 294 Typhoon sorties were flown 'the majority against a concentration of 2nd Panzers vehicles.' On this one day, the Typhoon pilots succeeding in destroying 30 of the 60 tanks this division had in the field at the time. The 2nd Panzer here is from the regular Wehrmacht, not the SS, although the 2nd SS was also in this battle.

Keegan streeses that this number does not include tanks lost in fighting the American 2nd Armored division in the area trying to stop the German advance.

Keegan does not break down the destroyed tanks by type.

#63: Hmm? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:09 pm
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[quote="Dima"]

Quote:

Let me ask you,How many panthers (,Tigers ,PzIv and PzIII) were in Normandy?

Quote:

6June-12Aug 1944:

PzIII - 30.
PzIV - 841.
Panther - 654.
Tiger I - 126.
Tiger II - 12.

Na, I just look at the Tiger figure and see thats not correct, fe: the Tiger II
Just as an example, the Abt 503, that arrived 29/6-5/7 had 12 Tiger II and Fkl 316 had another 5 Tiger II.

Fkl 316 had 5 Tiger II serie number 28001-28005.

503 : 1 KP: had 11+1 Tiger II with Porsche turret and one with henshel, serie nr 280023 - 280035.

That make in total 17, in the two units a bow. They were in fight at time frame mentioned in region we talk of.

Source: SPHF, No#4 1996 Part 1., by Christer Baastöe (here the faith of the individual tanks are presented and where they where kocked out, even tank commander name are mentioned)
I will get SPHF part 2, where the fate of FLk is coverd, i be back with more info in that regard.

Stalky

PS: In general and in detail: I believe one shall mention once sources especially when one talk in detail and not in general. The reader ought to have a clew from where one have got the figures, and shall be able to verify those figures.

Btw: As an rather good internet resource for Normandy battle and tanks and guns and infantry and MG down to numbers, I can recommend http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/

Last edited by AT_Stalky on Thu May 18, 2006 12:50 pm; edited 4 times in total

#64: More on losses: Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:26 pm
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Losses:

Here is an excelnt article about air to ground effect:
http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/articles/article.html
Click at: Effects of Allied Air Power

#65: Author: Dima,

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:41 pm
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Quote:

Na, I just look at the Tiger figure and see thats not correct, fe: the Tiger II
Just as an example, the Abt 503, that arrived 29/6-5/7 had 12 Tiger II and Fkl 316 had another 5 Tiger II.

1)what;s Fkl316?
it was Pz-Kp.316(fkl).

2)IMHO u should learn to read whole article(statement) and not take words out of context.
While u use inet source i perefer to buy books. Here what N.Zetterling writes in his 'Normandy 1944 ........"(2000)/ p.386:
"Panzer-Kompanie 316 (Funklenk) did not bring it's Tiger II tanks to Normandy."

I believe that there is same statement in i-net version of that book.

#66: Hmm? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 1:45 pm
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Dima wrote:

Quote:

Na, I just look at the Tiger figure and see thats not correct, fe: the Tiger II
Just as an example, the Abt 503, that arrived 29/6-5/7 had 12 Tiger II and Fkl 316 had another 5 Tiger II.

1)what;s Fkl316?
it was Pz-Kp.316(fkl).

Ye, shall i give full name? Panzer Kompani Funklenk 316... Maby Flk 316 is enough for most ppl... ... ...

[quote="Dima"]

Quote:

2)IMHO u should learn to read whole article(statement) and not take words out of context.

What exact did i take out of context? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

[quote="Dima"]

Quote:

While u use inet source i perefer to buy books. Here what N.Zetterling writes in his 'Normandy 1944 ........"(2000)/ p.386:

Hmm?? SPHF is a Historic Tank association (i AM a member of SPHF), u know on paper by real military and historcans, not internet, maybe you dint know, (apart from research tanks, we actually have tanks thats restored etc)
Btw, And now u say your source, thanx... That was what i whanted...

[quote="Dima"]

Quote:

"Panzer-Kompanie 316 (Funklenk) did not bring it's Tiger II tanks to Normandy."

hmm, they was blown up "maybe", but where was that?

quote="Dima"]

Quote:

I believe that there is same statement in i-net version of that book.

Ahh, intresting Wink

? But that’s ok, as long as one says from where one has got it, and preferably gives the link.

AND :
That link I gave, that covers the airwar effect in Normandy and what tanks was killed by, and the one that rather accurate about actual tanks in Normandy and down to men, and MG and so in most units there, do you mind If I put it there so ppl can have a look them selvs?
Why wold I put figures here when I can give a link to the place where ppl can read it them self’s, and actually fined good information.
The air war in Normandy: http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/articles/airpower.html
The whole excellent site:
http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/articles/article.html

good good information...

STalky

#67: Author: Dima,

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:05 pm
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Quote:

"Funklenkpanzer" (Marcus Jaugnitz):

"...By mid-May 1944 the division was quartered in the Chatres-Le Mans-Orleans area and 316 was quartered in St. Denis near Chateudun.
On 18 May 1944 as a result of the serious technical problems affecting the five Tiger IIs, the division headquarters ordered 316 to be reequipped at once. The 3. Kompanie of PJA 130 was ordered to return the StuG IIIs and the five Tiger IIs were to be sent to a garrison in Germany for further service trials..."

Quote:

hmm, they was blown up "maybe", but where was that?

13.08.44
The 5 Tiger II tanks arrive in CHATEAUDUN.
They are deployed within the city defense against the approaching US Army.

18.08.44.
Last Tiger II was abandoned by crew due to malfunction in vicinity of TOURY.

1 of those 5 Tiger IIs.

Tiger II(316fkl).JPG

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#68: Yes Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:06 pm
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Them 5 was the first Tiger II in series production, and had some serious tecnical issues.

Edit: Sry, i said the link was to main page of good information site of Normandy battle and the units that foght there, but i missed in copy and past of the link,
a new try to get link right:
http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/

Good good information.

#69: Author: Mythoclastic,

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:20 am
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Sorry if this has already been answered but which battle group do Panthers occur in?

#70: Author: mikwarleo,

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:16 am
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I decided I'm going to add my 2c to this but first:

Mythoclastic wrote:

Sorry if this has already been answered but which battle group do Panthers occur in?

The one's with the panther symbol on the strat map in the grand campaign (they don't come till day 8 or 9 or after, I forget exactly) ... Smile

or check here: http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2657
I assume you mean in game?

ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:

EDITED ... figures for production of M4 Sherman...
1944 production figures
75mm 3504
76mm 7135
105mm 2286

I don't want to get into the debate of this post but this seems dismal, possibly wrong. I don't have the knowledge you guys do on WW2 but I hear repeatedly about the 'production power' of the US/Allies in WW2. Well, I'm currently reading 'Stalingrad' by Antony Beevor (good read), on p223 he states, paraphrased: in the final 6 months of 1942 the Soviet Union produced 13,600 tanks and 15,800 aircraft!!! (In comparison to Germany's 500 tanks a month). Presumably it was much more in 1944. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I thought allied production was much higher than Russian? Here it looks like 1942 Russian MBT production was TWICE that of US 1944 MBT production?! So much so that I had the impression it was general knowledge that when the US entered the war their *huge* production power sealed the deal in terms of German defeat? On Beevors figures seems Germany was pretty out of it production-wise in 1942 against Russia alone to say nothing of the Commonwealth or the impending war with US.

AT_Stalky wrote:

CC best game ever.

Um, duh!

poli wrote:

whats really missing from the game is strategic arty and airstrikes- The moment Those Panzer groups were spotted they were targeted for harrasment arty fire- Air strikes and just generally hasseld at every available opportunity. Unfortunantly the game only lets you throw air and arty at the enemy during battles.

as for the 3 for 1 rule in H2H- IF your lucky - 5 to 1 seems to be more realistic count going by my latest GC.

Your right but also I think wrong. GJS for example is well balanced. And you can assume, as someone else pointed out, that the relatively few panthers you have that do make it to the field is as a result of attrition losses. Also I find airstrikes in GJS one of my best weapons against panthers/tigers. Hold them as best you can by taking a defensive position and work away at them a tank (or 2 if you're lucky) at a time.

Dima wrote:

So imo air support is shown v realistic in CC5 and particulary in GJS 4.4.

Without getting into it any more than this, I agree.

I had my say on this earlier in this post and but, to again answer those who have problems killing panthers, we all have problems killing them. As we should! You really need to take a more defensive approach to panther BGs. Draw them into towns or areas where you can hold off their supporting infantry and then hit them with piats or AT or swarm them with tanks. Personally, like TACK, one of my most favourite things is killing tanks with PIATS. I think they're underrated. Sure they suck, but get them in the right position and they're deadly. Of course, one reason they're so good is they're so expendible. You've got tonnes of them. And one german tank for even 2 or 3 piat teams is a very good deal imho. Germans in GJS can't afford to lose 1 tank to 2 ALLIED tanks let alone a tank to piats! Remember in GJS allies have at least double the number of tanks so you can afford some losses. Remember to be bold early in your GC as allies, losses are to be expected. Take as much ground as you can, hit hard. Shermans are expendible as they were in real life. As germans if the allies get off the beaches you're in big trouble because they have so much gear and you don't.

In one tough GC I finished recently I managed to entice a Panther BG to attack my allied infantry at LINGEVRES. My BG had 17pdrs, M10s and, of course PIATS! It seemed I would have the panther BG pinned down at the road indefinately with 17pdrs and M10s pointing down the road, piats, MGs, humbers and infantry holding the germans in the houses! If I haddn't tried to counter attack after a few days of stand-off action to cut supply I could have held indefinately! Infantry v Panthers! Try it out in your GCs Smile

... as it was even after my line was broken I held in guerilla warfare reducing this panther BG to one tank though my infantry BG was totally spent (including reinforce). Still an infantry BG for a Panther BG is an outstanding trade imho!

happy gaming Wink

#71: Author: Mythoclastic,

Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:45 am
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I've had a look on both the lists page and I've gone through the battle groups (Recruits setting etc. etc.) and I can't find them.

I'm on "Create a Scenario" so do you only get them on a GC?

Anyone know the battlegroup?

#72: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:28 pm
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yer the production u quoted me as saying.
was for shermans only and in 1944 only.
when u take into account other tanks and vehicles,and shipping them across the atlantic,its quite an impressive production and delivery effort.

#73: Author: roonburg,

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:55 am
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Mythoclastic: The panther is listed in the game as "MARK VG/VD/VA" depending on model.

They appear in these BGs
-I./3 2.Panzer div
-I./6 Panze-Lehr div
-I./12 12 SS-Panzer div

As someone said look for the picture of a panther on the BG icon

#74: Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:06 pm
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[quote="Cpt_Rio"]The Panther frontal armor was 30 degree of 80mm slopped amour & turret was 120mm at front, so it was way more efficient than the Tigee's 90 degree of 100/110 mm yes it was far harder to kill than a tiger at a front shot but the tiger had thicker side armour than a panther. over all panther was a better tank.

#75: Author: Massivattack, Location: St Priest (France)

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:50 am
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Confirmation : the best way (only one ?) to beat such monsters is ambushing them. My favourite is to burn them with flamethrower. Twisted Evil

For my very first time, yesterday, I faced a tiger (driven by a human) and I think my end was arrived...
Hopefully pioneer (I like this unit) was there at the right moment ! It was good cooking...

PS : It also works with Panther.

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