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#1: "Saving Private Ryan" and two questions Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:48 am
—
Hello CC community;
A few days ago,I watched "Saving Private Ryan" for another time.
I approve ,with no doubt,It is one of the best WWII movie ever made.
But after the movie,the following questions came to my mind:

-At the last scenes of the movie,There's a battle between
elements "US 101st AB" and a (probably) batalion of
"2nd SS Panzer division(Das Reich)".As far as I know these units
didnt met eachothers in Normandy(2nd SS had a month delay before arriving
the battlefield).I will be appreciate to everyone who gives me
information about it.

-As you all know well,2nd SS didnt has got any "Tigers".And There were not any
"Tigers" in American sector of Normandy.So,What are those two Tigers in the movie?

Once again I want say that, "Saving Private Ryan" is one of the best WWII
movie till now.

Regard.
-Kambiz

#2: Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:56 am
—
Hi Kami,

IMO SPR movie does not pretend to be historical so don't take it too serious.

Quote:

As far as I know these units didnt met eachothers in Normandy(2nd SS had a month delay before arriving
the battlefield).I will be appreciate to everyone who gives me
information about it.

yep u r rite. A
s far as i understood SPR shows June. And rangers travel from Omaha to Utah sector. The only SS unit in Utah sector was 17.SS-PzD and it didn't posses any tank.

Quote:

-As you all know well,2nd SS didnt has got any "Tigers".And There were not any "Tigers" in American sector of Normandy.So,What are those two Tigers in the movie?

i guess to show the DRAMA.
Plus it's easier to make Tiger from T34 than any other german tank.

Quote:

Once again I want say that, "Saving Private Ryan" is one of the best WWII movie till now.

yeah!

#3: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:06 pm
—
also in the movie they said there were 2 panzers but they only had the 2 tigers, a marder 2, and a marder 3. where were the panzers?

#4: Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:37 pm
—
Hi All;

Quote:

IMO SPR movie does not pretend to be historical so don't take it too serious.

Yes,I think so,but As I told you,I'm afraid of missing somthing(I mean Lack of information).So decided to ask it of others.

Quote:

also in the movie they said there were 2 panzers but they only had the 2 tigers, a marder 2, and a marder 3. where were the panzers?

Heh,Thanks king_tiger_tank,I didnt pay attention to this one. Very Happy

Ah...Dima,I'd like to thank you for Utah.Its great.I hope you release the 1.4
soon.I have some suggestions about the mod which if you want,I will post
them later.

Regards
-Kambiz

#5: Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:43 pm
—

Quote:

.I hope you release the 1.4 soon.I have some suggestions about the mod which if you want,I will post them later.

sure do it in Utah forum.

#6: Author: rufus,

Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:57 pm
—
hi,a tiger is a panzer,panzerkampfwagen vi or armoured fighting vehicle 6.

#7: Best ww2 Movie Author: cavallot, Location: Rome (Italy)

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:13 pm
—
Hi chaps

I agree "Save private Ryan" is one of the best ww2 movie ever, but I would recomend an older one, defenitely based on a smaller budget, and made in the 70ies, when the special effects were not so good and there was no computer editing.
I am talking about "Cross of Iron" (1977) with James Coburn.
Very realistic, very raw, very though!
Have a look at the close assault of the Russian of the Germans lines...
Scarry adrenalinic!
A.

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#8: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:41 pm
—

rufus wrote:

hi,a tiger is a panzer,panzerkampfwagen vi or armoured fighting vehicle 6.

no when the american sniper in the tower was signalling what was coming tom hanks said

Quote:

2 tigers, 2 panzers, 50+ men

and when they got to the scene of the molivtov cocktails that was a Marder 1 and to the scene where the company sargent shot the bazooka and shot at the one tank that was a marder 3

#9: Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:17 pm
—
cavallot,What is the movie subject? I mean What operation or battle recreated in this movie.

Quote:

rufus wrote:
hi,a tiger is a panzer,panzerkampfwagen vi or armoured fighting vehicle 6.

no when the american sniper in the tower was signalling what was coming tom hanks said Quote:
2 tigers, 2 panzers, 50+ men
and when they got to the scene of the molivtov cocktails that was a Marder 1 and to the scene where the company sargent shot the bazooka and shot at the one tank that was a marder 3

I'm agreed with you king_tiger_tank. Laughing

Ah king_tiger_tank,When you are in Game Spy?I'd like to meet you mate. Wink

Regard
-Kambiz

#10: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:36 am
—

Quote:

Ah king_tiger_tank,When you are in Game Spy?I'd like to meet you mate. :wink:

Regard
-Kambiz

my computer is very bad and i have the problem with unexpected quits so i don't go on game spy that often. i'll redownload it and get it going though. (and i'm busy learning to mod to create the italy mod for CC5)

#11: Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:57 am
—
Hi King;
I'm so sorry about your computer.Maybe you need to reinstall your Windows.
However,I hope your PC problem be solved soon.And I'm waiting for your Italy mod.

Good luck king_tiger_tank
-Kambiz

#12: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 12:23 am
—
i went and made 3 pages of battles now and i have to wait on the reinstalling but i have and solved many problems lately. my big problem is that if my is computer is compatible with the modding tools

#13: Cross of Iron Author: cavallot, Location: Rome (Italy)

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:52 pm
—
Pzt_Kami

"Cross of Iron" takes place on the Easthern Front, somewhere, probably in summer 44, and the story is on the German side.
James Coburn is a Sgt. fighting his own war, not just against the Red Army, but against corruption, violence, etc.
Very good!

#14: Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 3:01 pm
—
Hi;
[quote=cavallot]"Cross of Iron" takes place on the Easthern Front, somewhere, probably in summer 44, and the story is on the German side.
James Coburn is a Sgt. fighting his own war, not just against the Red Army, but against corruption, violence, etc.
Very good![/quote]

Hmmm,Guess I saw somthing like this some years ago,But thanks.

After "Saving Private Ryan" and "Bamd of Brothers" series,I havent seen movie like these.What's your idea about the next WWII movie title?

#15: Author: Pzt_Wruff, Location: Pzt Befehl Hauptsitz

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 5:58 pm
—
Well Kami. You certainly must see "der Untergang" , translated Downfall. A newer german movie. Released in 2005.

It's set in Berlin, April 1945.
The best WWII movie I've seen in years.

Here's the main site with info and some good clips:
http://www.downfallthefilm.com/

Here's the topic over at Pzt forum:
http://www.xsorbit6.com/users/battlehqclosecombat/////////////index.cgi?board=sound_off&action=display&num=1112040736&start=0

#16: Author: RedScorpion, Location: Neverland

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:42 pm
—
man i love this movie, can only agree with wruff! seen it like 5 times in a year, and cant get enough. thinking every week i should watch it anew. one of my top movies ever. cant get enough of the feeling of damnation and the figures are uncannily cast really... just look at goebbels! moreover, movie is very historical, i remembered the scenes and facts from the book by J. Fest (also named Der Untergang) when i first saw movie. top notch!

#17: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 8:29 pm
—
i found another imperfection on saving private ryan. in the last battle the american sniper (i can't remorize names well) didn't reload his gun (he shot like 12 rounds) before he was blown to bits.

#18: Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 8:56 pm
—
Hi comrades;
I saw this movie General.Yes,Its realy great.Guess I saw it nearly 10 times(More than you RedScorpion Wink

).Although I saw it in original language and didnt find out what they are saying in the movie.But this film is about the last days of the 3rd Reich.Most of the movie happen in the Hitler bunker.We see few scenes in battle.I'm talking about a movie which shows a battle or Ops in WWII.I think a movie about 12th SS Div. around "Caen" can be interesting.For example "The tragic history of the Hitler youth in Normandy".What's your idea?

King_Tiger_Tank wrote:

i found another imperfection on saving private ryan. in the last battle the american sniper (i can't remorize names well) didn't reload his gun (he shot like 12 rounds) before he was blown to bits.

Yes,Another mperfection. Very Happy

-Kambiz

#19: Author: HistoryTeaches, Location: Germany

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:12 pm
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i think there is a dvd version of Downfall for the us

so it must be in english

#20: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:08 am
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another good WW2 movie is The Big Red One. it was pretty accurate history and weapons.

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#21: Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:27 am
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Hi All;
"The Big Red One",Hmmm.I know a game with this title.Should be about 1st US Inf Division.But Thanks king_tiger_tank.

-Kambiz

#22: Author: Pzt_Wruff, Location: Pzt Befehl Hauptsitz

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 10:41 pm
—

HistoryTeaches wrote:

i think there is a dvd version of Downfall for the us

so it must be in english

Yes. Sub-titled in english.

#23: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 11:26 pm
—

Pzt_Kami wrote:

Hi All;
"The Big Red One",Hmmm.I know a game with this title.Should be about 1st US Inf Division.But Thanks king_tiger_tank.

-Kambiz

there is a game but this movie came first(back in the 70's or 80's) it's good but it's only on TV and it's rarely on.

#24: The Big Red One Author: MörserCarl, Location: Tokyo

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:43 pm
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The Big Red One was the nickname for the US 1st infantry division. That division and the US 101st airborne division were the only experienced US divisions that took part in the campaign in northwest Europe... and there were about fifty infantry, armoured, and airborne divisions. On D-Day, the 1st infantry division and the 29th division landed on the Calvados coastline, which became known as Omaha beach. The Big Red One gained its experience in North Africa and Sicily... as far as I am aware.

#25: Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:58 pm
—
Thank you MörserCarl for information

#26: Author: Tacloban,

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:21 pm
—
"Stalingrad" is also a German movie is it not? I have heard good things about it.

The CC3 mod of saving Private Ryan looks good. Too bad for my sake that it's not for CC5.

Tacloban

#27: Author: HistoryTeaches, Location: Germany

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:42 pm
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yep a german movie made in the early 90´s

realistic and nothing for people who don´t want to see the true face of war

#28: Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:09 pm
—
Hey All;
I haven't seen "Stalingrad",But I saw nother good movie about this city : "Enemy at the gate".Its realy good movie about a young Russian Sniper who his name was I think "Vassily",Fighting against a german Elite sniper who "Ed Harris" play his roll.

I'm mainly talking about the future titles.Which subject would you like to see as a WWII movie?

-Kambiz

#29: Author: RedScorpion, Location: Neverland

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 1:33 pm
—
stalingrad fucking sucks, what a lame movie! same for enemy at the gates, its like a love movie with some sniping... :angry1 yah, constructive criticism Laughing

#30: Re: "Saving Private Ryan" and two questions Author: God4Saken, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 3:06 pm
—
Hey Kami, only just came across your question whilst browsing through the forum, so I thought I'd add my bit for what it's worth. Saving Private Ryan was a great movie, but it it's very one-sided American movie and doesn't do justice to all the allied forces that fought at Normandy (British, Canadian, even the Australians were there; flying overhead in RAF squadons although I'm not sure if there were any Iranian/Persian troops there, probably not, although there may have been one or two in the Whermacht serving in the so-called "Ost" battalions).

I read this account of D-Day, where some German prisoners taken at Omaha beach were found to be orientals in Whermacht uniform. The US army eventually identified them as Koreans and learned that they had originally been drated by the Japanese into the Kwantung Army in Manchuria in the 1930's, captured by the Red Army at Battle of Khalkhin Gol in 1939, imprisoned by the Russians then drafted into a penal battalion by the Red Army in 1941 to fight the Gemans who captured them and then drafted them into an Ost battalion which was sent to France, where they were captured by the US Army in 1944. What an adventure! Amost as good as a Kontiki tour. Apparently these Koreans were repatriated back to Korea when the war ended and were most likely drafted into a Korean army, either north or South to fight in the 1950-53 war. Now that would make a good WW2 movie.

Anyway back to SPR, much has been written about the movie and all the historical mistakes in it. I've no problem with this as it serves a great purpose, people watch the movie then go out and do the research to identify the obvious historical errors. This makes them learn more about history, especially an important period of world history. The mistakes aren't so glaringly obvious, like the US army aren't using M1 Abraham tanks to assault Omaha with the Germans defending the beachead with photon torpedoes. So a little bit of dramatic license is all right, but Hollywood can take things a bit too far. For example:-

1) "Pearl Harbour" (2001) Full of mistakes, you're better off watching "Tora Tora Tora". The worst mistake was the Americans making out that the attack in 1941 was the start of WW2. Hello!! China had been fighting the Japanese since 1931, not to mention the war in Europe. Plus the Australians had already started fighting the Japanese when they invaded Malaya at Kota Bharu before the attack on Pearl Harbour (Due to different time-zones).

2) "U-571" (2000) where an US navy submarine crew capture an Enigma machine off a German U-boat. It was actually the Royal Navy that captured a U-boat and secured the precious Enigma.

3) My favourite deliberate mistake, "Master and Commander The Far Side of the World" (2003) which is based on the Aubrey–Maturin book series by Patrick O'Brian. In the movie, Jack Aubrey takes on the French frigate Archeron, but in the book the enemy ship is an American - the USS Norfolk (The book is set during the War of 1812). It seemed the producers of the movie were uncomfortable with Americans being portrayed as the bad guys, so they rewrote it with the French as the bad guys instead (It works, everyone hates the French).

So there you have it, three examples of truth getting in the way of Hollywood. Still, it could have been worse. Imagine if Saving Private Ryan had been made in Bollywood in India instead? All that singing and dancing on Omaha Beach, let's not go there.

Pzt_Kami wrote:

At the last scenes of the movie,There's a battle between elements "US 101st AB" and a (probably) batalion of
"2nd SS Panzer division(Das Reich)".As far as I know these units
didnt met eachothers in Normandy(2nd SS had a month delay before arriving
the battlefield).

Sorry Kami, I digressed. The 2nd SS "Das Reich" Panzer Division, part of the 2nd SS Panzer Corps, was stationed around the French town of Montauban, near the Southern city of Toulouse, when D-Day occured (About 600km south of Normandy). They did not arrive in strength at Normandy until the 23rd June 1944, ten days after the supposed events at Ramelle took place. When they did arrive, it was outside Caen to take on the British and Canadians, not the Americans. Along the way, elements of the 2nd SS slaughtered around 640 French civilians in the village of Oradour-sur-Glane and razed the town. Most of the women and children were burnt to death when they were herded into the local church and it was deliberately burnt to the ground. That scenario was used in the movie "The Patriot" (2000) set during the American Revolutionary War. The British troops herded the town's population into the church and burnt it down, looked dramatic but totally innaccurate. No such event took place in that war.

Pzt_Kami wrote:

So,What are those two Tigers in the movie?

With regards to the Tiger tanks used in the movie. They were actually a mock-up Tiger top put on a T-34/85 chassis that the producers purchased from the Yugoslav Army. The difference is in the wheels, Tigers have interleaved wheels and those in the film clearly have the T-34 configuration. Same with the Marder and Wespe mock-up's they used, modern chassis with newly constructed upper works. Beats getting some old US army M48 Patton tanks and painting swastikas on them like they did in "Battle of the Bulge" movie. At least they did their best to recreate the tanks and how they would have looked at the time in SPR. Except that the Tigers have the insignia of the 1st SS Panzer Corps on them (Maybe the 2nd borrowed them for the battle of Ramelle). Hope that this helps, cheers!

#31: Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 7:23 pm
—
Hi God4Saken and others;

God4Saken wrote:

I'm not sure if there were any Iranian/Persian troops there, probably not, although there may have been one or two in the Whermacht serving in the so-called "Ost" battalions

I heared spmthing about it and did a few research about it with no evidence of participation of Iranian Troops in Whermacht.But I'll be thankfull of anybody giving me any information about it.

God4Saken wrote:

I read this account of D-Day, where some German prisoners taken at Omaha beach were found to be orientals in Whermacht uniform. The US army eventually identified them as Koreans and learned that they had originally been drated by the Japanese into the Kwantung Army in Manchuria in the 1930's, captured by the Red Army at Battle of Khalkhin Gol in 1939, imprisoned by the Russians then drafted into a penal battalion by the Red Army in 1941 to fight the Gemans who captured them and then drafted them into an Ost battalion which was sent to France, where they were captured by the US Army in 1944. What an adventure! Amost as good as a Kontiki tour. Apparently these Koreans were repatriated back to Korea when the war ended and were most likely drafted into a Korean army, either north or South to fight in the 1950-53 war. Now that would make a good WW2 movie.

If so,I'm Agreed.It can be very impressive story and could be a good story for WWII movie too.

God4Saken wrote:

This makes them learn more about history, especially an important period of world history.

Indeed.WWII is one of the most important evet in last century and imo everyone must know a few about it.

God4Saken wrote:

Imagine if Saving Private Ryan had been made in Bollywood in India instead? All that singing and dancing on Omaha Beach, let's not go there.

Realy.

Yes,Few companies in few countries can create such a movies.

God4Saken wrote:

Along the way, elements of the 2nd SS slaughtered around 640 French civilians in the village of Oradour-sur-Glane and razed the town.

I know about this tragedy.This event is one of the most important "Waffen-SS" war crimes.

God4Saken wrote:

Hope that this helps

It helped too mutch.Thank you very mutch for this excellent somehow article mate.

Regards
-Kambiz

#32: Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:10 pm
—

Quote:

Along the way, elements of the 2nd SS slaughtered around 640 French civilians in the village of Oradour-sur-Glane and razed the town. Most of the women and children were burnt to death when they were herded into the local church and it was deliberately burnt to the ground.

A tragic event no doubt, but the 'patriots' that caused that were the Marquis, who were no where to be found when that village got raided. Everything happens for a reason, it's not like they didn't know the German unit stationed there wouldn’t play rough if provoked.

I can't help but blame both the elements of the 2nd SS and Marquis. Its amazing the risk the Marquis took for such small gains. Not like they contributed to Germany's defeat in any significant way by executing that officer, more like pure reckless endangerment.

As for SPR, it's a hard movie to watch for me. Now that I am older and educated about the subject it's hard to see some stereotypes. Next time you watch it notice that every German soldier with his helmet/hat off is a skinhead. I implore someone to find me one picture of a WW2 German soldier with his head shaved. I have thousands of photos on top of mounds of books and I never once saw one German soldier without a full head of hair.

Last edited by Troger on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total

#33: Author: God4Saken, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:52 am
—
Troger, I'm a little disturbed with your contribution here regarding the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane. The justification given for the actions of the Waffen SS that day was the alleged killing by French resistance of one Sturmbannfuhrer Helmut Kampfe, who remains missing believed dead to this day (The 2nd SS Pz Div officers were under the impression that the resistance had abducted and killed him, but it was never proven, and anyway, that is irrelevant). For that, around 640 people, mostly defenceless and helpless civilians were killed by the Waffen SS. I wouldn't care if the French Resistance, (FFI or FTP "Commies") killed one or one hundred German soldiers, for the SS to do what they did that day is utterly barbaric and horrific, and is a war-crime regardless. Now what exactly constitutes a war-crime can be vigorously debated, but I don't think that there should be any arguement here with this attrocity.

The SS troops had a choice that day, they could have stopped to carry out the massacre or they could have continued on to Normandy to attack the allies without delay (Which was actually their primary mission). They made the choice to wipe out all those helpless civilians, purely due to their homicidal-come-psychopathic nature that these SS troops displayed (They had recently been transferred from the Russian Front where such attrocities were the norm and actively encouraged). Now if you thought the French "Commies" were cowardly in their attacks, how brave were the SS troops in brutally herding at gunpoint sceaming women clutching babies and other children into a church, barricading the building, then dousing it with petrol and setting it alight, ensuring that those inside either burned to death or died of asphyxiation? We'll never know how many of those soldiers would have been laughing or crying at what they were doing, but I'm willing to bet it was the former. How many SS or Whermacht officers were executed during WW2 after being found guilty of disobeying a direct order to commit an attrocity against civilains?

The Germans weren't in France as liberators bringing "Freedom, Liberty, Justice and Mocracey" to the country after deposing some dictator who supposedly had WMD's and they weren't peace-keepers maintaining law and order in a chaotic anarchistic environment. They had invaded the country and brutally enslaved the vast majority of it's population. Oradour-sur-Glane or Sebrinica or Nanking or Lidice or Katyn or Babi Yar or any other such attrocity should not be merely dismissed as the fault of a few so-called cowardly resistance members, they were the responsibility of those who perpertrated the massacres and those who encouraged such massacres to take place. We all enjoy playing this CC5 game and researching WW2 history, but we should never forget that millions died in that war and many millions more suffered horrendously, all beacuse some psychopathic, demented, amateur artist and failed soldier felt hard done by and wanted some Lebensraum.

By the way, Troger, you're quite right in your comments on the shaved heads that the German troops had in SPR. Photos of bareheaded men from most parts of Europe in the 1930's and 40's show them to have long hair on top and short back/sides. This was the popular hairstyle at the time, along wit the liberal application of brylcreme. The only people who went around with shaved heads were generally convicts (Heads were shaved in an effort to control lice and to humiliate the prisoner).

#34: Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 8:27 am
—

God4Saken wrote:

Troger, I'm a little disturbed with your contribution here regarding the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane. The justification given for the actions of the Waffen SS that day was the alleged killing by French resistance of one Sturmbannfuhrer Helmut Kampfe, who remains missing believed dead to this day (The 2nd SS Pz Div officers were under the impression that the resistance had abducted and killed him, but it was never proven, and anyway, that is irrelevant). For that, around 640 people, mostly defenceless and helpless civilians were killed by the Waffen SS. I wouldn't care if the French Resistance, (FFI or FTP "Commies") killed one or one hundred German soldiers, for the SS to do what they did that day is utterly barbaric and horrific, and is a war-crime regardless. Now what exactly constitutes a war-crime can be vigorously debated, but I don't think that there should be any arguement here with this attrocity.

The SS troops had a choice that day, they could have stopped to carry out the massacre or they could have continued on to Normandy to attack the allies without delay (Which was actually their primary mission). They made the choice to wipe out all those helpless civilians, purely due to their homicidal-come-psychopathic nature that these SS troops displayed (They had recently been transferred from the Russian Front where such attrocities were the norm and actively encouraged). Now if you thought the French "Commies" were cowardly in their attacks, how brave were the SS troops in brutally herding at gunpoint sceaming women clutching babies and other children into a church, barricading the building, then dousing it with petrol and setting it alight, ensuring that those inside either burned to death or died of asphyxiation? We'll never know how many of those soldiers would have been laughing or crying at what they were doing, but I'm willing to bet it was the former. How many SS or Whermacht officers were executed during WW2 after being found guilty of disobeying a direct order to commit an attrocity against civilains?

The Germans weren't in France as liberators bringing "Freedom, Liberty, Justice and Mocracey" to the country after deposing some dictator who supposedly had WMD's and they weren't peace-keepers maintaining law and order in a chaotic anarchistic environment. They had invaded the country and brutally enslaved the vast majority of it's population. Oradour-sur-Glane or Sebrinica or Nanking or Lidice or Katyn or Babi Yar or any other such attrocity should not be merely dismissed as the fault of a few so-called cowardly resistance members, they were the responsibility of those who perpertrated the massacres and those who encouraged such massacres to take place. We all enjoy playing this CC5 game and researching WW2 history, but we should never forget that millions died in that war and many millions more suffered horrendously, all beacuse some psychopathic, demented, amateur artist and failed soldier felt hard done by and wanted some Lebensraum.

Nothing to be disturbed about, I didn't have my hand it in Smile

. I called it a clearly criminal act, replace that with any word you choose, barbaric, ruthless, I'll agree with it. You can 'allege' that the French Maquis didn't execute Kampfe but everyone knows it happened (Not to mention the other handful of 2.SS soldiers killed by the Maquis during their deployment, but as you said irrelevant). I don’t think it justifies their actions and I didn't say that either.

I simply pointed out that it was a pointless act by the French resistance, which started the whole ordeal. It started the moment they got there with the constant badgering of German troops. They put the lives of innocent civilians at risk doing what they did and that's a fact. I made it quite clear that one should be equally pissed with the reckless endangerment displayed by the Maquis. There is no need to quote "commies". Because you are quite well educated on the subject, so if you have read anything on it, authors are always clear to point it out.

Make no illusions I am not apologizing for anyone or anything. Simply pointing the finger where in every direction it should be. Like I said, the ancient Semitic tradition 'eye for an eye' applied here. When the situation got real, the French Maquis had to be hunted down towns away...

Don’t get off-topic, read what I write and soak it all in. Let's keep this a civil conversation, cause that part me honoring the soldiers that herded civilians into burning buildings was unwarranted. Every Resistance has been an endangerment to the people they supposedly ‘fight’ for. They have their own agenda’s for what they do.

Last edited by Troger on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:23 am; edited 1 time in total

#35: Re: The Big Red One Author: God4Saken, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:08 am
—
G'day Troger, thanks for the lively debate and I’m more than happy to keep this conversation civil. Firstly I’m satisfied that you consider what happened at Oradour-sur-Glane as a criminal action, I’ve not a problem with that, and that you didn’t have any hand in it (What would an 80+ year old SS veteran be doing playing CC5 on the internet anyway?). I’ve just a problem with you apportioning blame onto the French resistance and referring to them in general terms as “cowards, losers and rats” (There were a lot of brave people in the resistance who made a major contribution to the defeat of Germany at a great cost to themselves).

I questioned your comments simply because you seemed to indicate that it was all the fault of the French resistance, in that if they hadn't attacked the Germans at the time, the 2nd SS would have just supposedly driven through the village without giving it a second glance (It’s bit like the way some people would say that a woman deserves to be raped because of her manner or dress sense, something I’m sure you don’t agree with). Now perhaps the Germans would have continued on to Normandy, or perhaps they would have attacked that village or some other village anyway, who knows? One thing's for sure, it's highly unlikely the 2nd SS would have set up a free medical clinic for the local French civilians or assisted the local Jewish population (If there were any left) with handing out food and gifts on the Purim holiday. They were indeed effective soldiers but a nasty bunch of individuals that I wouldn’t care to associate with.

The French (And many others) resisted the German occupation for obvious reasons (Mind you, after so many German invasions of their soil over the centuries, you'd think the French would have been quite used to it by then) and their actions were not "pointless". The resistance in all those occupied countries tied up huge amounts of German military/security resources, as well as assisting allied intelligence and downed aircrew. Plus as I said before, the Germans weren’t there as liberators, they were there as conquerors and people generally don’t like to be conquered, they do prefer to resist. The French resistance assisted the allied invasion by engaging the Germans and they had no guarantee that the Normandy invasion was going to be successful (“Independence” wasn’t guaranteed, if the resistance listened to Nazi propaganda radio, the Germans were throwing the allies off the beaches and invading England themselves). So they did what they could with the little resources and training that they had to harass, annoy, delay and generally upset the German military in support of the allied forces at Normandy and so their actions were not pointless. Yes they ran away and hid when the Germans came, but they’re a bunch of lightly armed, under-trained guerrillas totally outnumbered by a more heavily armed, elite SS division backed up by the Luftwaffe and other forces. I’d be running for the hills too (I’d rather be a live coward than a dead hero any day), what sane person would want to stay and fight in that situation? Standard guerrilla tactics, hit and run, piss the enemy off and all that

You can interpret the resistance’s actions as terrorism (In fact the Nazis referred to them as such) and the term "terrorism" actually comes from the French word Terrorisme. Its origins go back to 1795 when it was used to describe the actions of the Jacobin Club in post-Revolutionary France (The so-called “Reign of Terror”) who referred to themselves as Terrorists. But as we all know, one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. The vast majority of French people were supportive of the resistance movement (Commie or otherwise). Was the German “Werewolf” resistance movement in post-war Germany any more justified in their actions? Definitely not and that’s why it was unpopular, had little impact and was swiftly mopped up. At the end of the day Troger, the 2nd SS Pz Division was responsible for Oradour-sur-Glane, not the French resistance.

Secondly, why can’t I or anybody else here go “off topic” in these forums? I like going off topic.

MörserCarl wrote:

That division and the US 101st airborne division were the only experienced US divisions that took part in the campaign in northwest Europe On D-Day, the 1st infantry division and the 29th division landed on the Calvados coastline, which became known as Omaha beach. The Big Red One gained its experience in North Africa and Sicily... as far as I am aware.

Sorry Morser, I have to correct you here. The 101st Airborne had not been in combat prior to D-Day and had only been formed from mostly raw recruits in August 1942. It was the 82nd Airborne division, as well as the 1st Infantry Division, that had seen combat before D-Day (At Sicily and Italy). The Germans referred to them as the "Devils in baggy pants".

Last edited by God4Saken on Thu May 25, 2006 2:16 am; edited 1 time in total

#36: Re: The Big Red One Author: God4Saken, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:08 am
—
Sorry, accidently submitted the same post, lack of computer skills on my part.

#37: Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:26 am
—
.........

#38: Author: God4Saken, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:33 am
—

Troger wrote:

.........

I give up, what does ......... mean?

#39: Author: GS_v_Richthofen, Location: Germany

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:45 pm
—
My favourite WW2 movie is "Das Boot",
its a very realistic movie about a german Submarine.
Watching this movie in a cold, rainy and stormy night gives you a great imagination of these poor man in their submarine.

#40: Author: pvt_Grunt, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:25 pm
—

GS_v_Richthofen wrote:

My favourite WW2 movie is "Das Boot",
its a very realistic movie about a german Submarine.
Watching this movie in a cold, rainy and stormy night gives you a great imagination of these poor man in their submarine.

I have to agree, it's a great movie.

The WORST WW2 film ever has to be Battle of the Bulge from 1965 with Henry Fonda. Sooooooooooooo disssapointing, bad acting, American tanks called Tigers etc

#41: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 1:58 am
—

pvt_Grunt wrote:

The WORST WW2 film ever has to be Battle of the Bulge from 1965 with Henry Fonda. Sooooooooooooo disssapointing, bad acting, American tanks called Tigers etc

yeah i thought that was a bad movie too.

#42: Author: God4Saken, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 4:51 am
—

pvt_Grunt wrote:

GS_v_Richthofen wrote:

I have to agree, it's a great movie.

The WORST WW2 film ever has to be Battle of the Bulge from 1965 with Henry Fonda. Sooooooooooooo disssapointing, bad acting, American tanks called Tigers etc

Totally agree here, "Das Boot" is one of the best WW2 movies, especially the director's cut in German with sub-titles. Just doesn't sound the same when they replace the voices with English dubbing. How many of us here saw "Das Boot" at the cinema and looked up at the dark ceiling inadvertantly when the u-boat was being hunted by the destroyers? I know I did.

Plus "Battle of the Bulge" was one of the worst, even Dwight Eisenhower apparently denounced the movie soon after its release in a press conference due to its historical inaccuracies. They used Chaffee and Patton tanks, not a Sherman anywhere to be seen. Does anyone know if there are there any real King Tigers in a museum somewhere? However the only good bit of the movie was when the Germans started singing "Panzerlied".

Ob's stürmt oder schneit,
Ob die Sonne uns lacht,
Der Tag glühend heiß
Oder eiskalt die Nacht.
Bestaubt sind die Gesichter,
Doch froh ist unser Sinn,
Ist unser Sinn;
Es braust unser Panzer
Im Sturmwind dahin.

For those of us who can't speak German

Whether it storms or snows,
Whether the sun smiles upon us,
The day glowing hot
Or freezing cold the night.
Dusty are the [our] faces,
But happy we're at heart,
We're at heart;
Our tank roars
In the storm wind along.

#43: Author: MörserCarl, Location: Tokyo

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 7:11 am
—
King Tigers?

Try this link: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz5.htm

Scroll to the bottom and click on gallery 1-3.

Here you find some examples of preserved King Tigers

...

Also, yes you're absolutely correct God4Saken, that it was the 82nd and not the 101st airborne that had been through some fighting before Normandy D-day. I stand corrected. My memory failed me there.

#44: Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:44 am
—
Hi All;
Anyone knows anything about ,"The Big Red One 2005"?I saw it in internet and seems is a reconstruction of the old movie Exclamation

.If so,Should be interesting.

Regard
-Kambiz

#45: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:39 am
—

Pzt_Kami wrote:

Hi All;
Anyone knows anything about ,"The Big Red One 2005"?I saw it in internet and seems is a reconstruction of the old movie :!: .If so,Should be interesting.

Regard
-Kambiz

nope i only know about the 70's verison and the game

#46: Author: God4Saken, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:34 pm
—

Pzt_Kami wrote:

Hi All;
Anyone knows anything about ,"The Big Red One 2005"?I saw it in internet and seems is a reconstruction of the old movie Exclamation

.If so,Should be interesting.

Regard
-Kambiz

G'day Kami, there is a listing on the internet for a DVD called The Real Glory: Reconstructing 'The Big Red One' to be released alongside the original 1980 movie "The Big Red One" (2005) when it came out on DVD. It's got most of the original cast, including Mark Hamill and Robert Carradine, but not Lee Marvin (He died in 1987) giving commentary on the making of the movie. It's the same movie, but with 40 minutes of extra footage (A bit different from a director's cut), here's a webpage for it.

http://www.dvdtown.com/discdetails/bigredonethespecialedition/15582/

#47: Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:57 pm
—

Troger wrote:

Quote:

A tragic event no doubt, but the 'patriots' that caused that were the Marquis and French commies, that were no where to be found when that village got raided. Not to mention that everything happens for a reason, it's not like they didn't know the German unit stationed there wouldn’t play hardball. After they executed a German officer and terrorizing the 2 SS since they had been stationed there. I'm sure those eastern front vets didn't want to be screwed with on their R and R.

A criminal action by the German soldiers invovled but one should be equally pissed with the coward French resistance that where the precursors of the whole situation. They paraded up and down that town yet when stuff got real they hid like rats. Losers.

I'm amazed by how people risk other's lives for small gains in a hopeless situation. Not like they contributed to Germany's defeat in any significant way by executing that officer, reckless endangerment is what I call it. Independence was on the way, and they had to get villagers in the crossfire.

As for SPR, it's a hard movie to watch for me. Now that I am older and educated about the subject it's hard to sit there and watch such a terribly stereotyped movie. Next time you watch it notice that every German soldier with his helmet/hat off is a skinhead. What a bunch of BS, Spielberg is supposed to be some big history buff. I implore someone to find me one picture of a WW2 German soldier with his head shaved. I have thousands of photos on top of mounds of books and I never once saw one German soldier without a full head of hair.

One would know that there are rules agasint doing such thing during that time in the German army. If anyone had their heads shaved, it was the Russians.

The massacre in this French town was not to blame on the french resistance or any other french political or partisan group. Murdering civilians is, without a doubt, the fault of the person who made the consious decision to pull the trigger, and his chain of command. This same debate is happening in Iraq right now, and American government and military leaders would never say the insurgents made the marines do that. Even though these 2 examples are around 60 years apart, it is valid to compare them as they deal with we respect human life.

Saving Private Ryan was never meant to be historical. It was meant to show the realism of battle. The horrific, violent nature of combat, the effects on the soldier and confusion it creates are some example. Further to this is was also made to show the public what alot of veterans actually experienced.

#48: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:05 pm
—
u mean SPR is not 100% historical ???

#49: Re: mmm Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:01 pm
—

ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:

u mean SPR is not 100% historical ???

I am not sure if your putting that question to me. I do make it quite clear in my post that it was not meant to be historical.

#50: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:20 am
—
lmao,was tongue in cheek...i dont know u if u read the other pages.
but if u did u would understand that comment..lol

#51: remagen Author: battlecat,

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:28 am
—
A little recognised, and interesting 60's war film, The Bridge at Remagen would be a prime candidate for a remake..
The mechanised recon units of the 9th armored trying to take the bridge, and the Germans sending me 262's, AR 234's and Ta152's against the bridge as well as Karl Morsers and rail guns lobbing huge shells at it, all of the elements of late war technology and frantic tactics to take a vital bridge into Germany.

#52: Author: Pzt Hornet,

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:00 pm
—
A great movie from the late forties or early fifties is BattleGround

It's about the 101st in and around Bastonge during the battle of the bulge.I think it was one of the first films to try and not glorify combat as the earlier propaganda films had done in the early forties.

#53: Author: agidol,

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:53 pm
—
Have you guys seen a movie called the Pianist? I thought it featured a short barrelled panzer (maybe earlier version of Pz 4?) as well as an authentic looking german half track. Another late attempt by Hollywood to create reasonably authentic looking German vehicles.

BTW, I liked the movie the Battle of the Bulge. Yes, the tanks sucked but the action was pretty good -- there was no way in hell Hollywood can recreate 50-60 King tigers in the 60's anyway.

#54: Author: Tacloban,

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:38 am
—

agidol wrote:

BTW, I liked the movie the Battle of the Bulge. Yes, the tanks sucked but the action was pretty good ...

Just for the sake of friendly discussion, that movie was one of the worst I've seen. Should have been called the Battle of a Southern California back lot. Absolutely no attempt to be historical. The tanks were not the problem. The whole bit with Fonda in the L-5 was a sorry attempt at dramatic tension.

The only decent scene was when Rutger Houer explained that the US was shipping in chocolate cake from overseas when the Germans couldn't get bullets over the border.

Tacloban, felling a bit grumpy for some reason.

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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