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Close Combat Series -> CC5 Stalingrad

#1: @Stal sub-mod maker. Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:52 am
—
Hi,

can u tell us what changes have u made?

Iam really interested Wink

#2: ? Author: jagd_jar1,

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:56 pm
—
I wish someone would answer this question!

#3: Some changes Author: Real_Vlad,

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:20 am
—
Some of the more important changes that Dima guy may be interested in.
I cannot name them all as some are my opinions.But hope you find these
helpful.

Soldiers.adb list numbering there are 2 #66 the 2nd #66 should be #67!!!

Weapons.adb
Gewehr41(w)ZF41 reduced kill raiting from 15 to 6,
to match the Gewehr41(w) normal rifle.Sniper is a better shot(accuracy and
range)
but does not make weapon 2.5times more powerful.Same rifles one has a scope,
luxeries such as higher grade ammo were in way too short supply,as supplies
of tungsten had run low and production was ceased in March that year.
Same thing with Karabiner 98kZF41 matched to 98k

MG37(t) changed the 250rd belt to a 100 round belt
p.s these ammo belts can be linked together,but come in lots of 100.
http://www.geocities.com/pizzatest/panzerfaust5.htm#mg37t

Tellermine made more powerful and increased min range to stop self harm.

Geb Ladung 1kg & 3kg, switched weapons weights
changed 1kg from 10lbs to 3lbs,decreased kill rating for 1kg
changed 3kg from 4lbs to 9lbs

Made German and Russian Flamethrowers equal,Ranges,kill raiting,time to
fire.

here is new version with revised small weapons.
5battles added
RG Kuporosnoye
RG Lazur
RG Meat Plant
RG Oil Tank Farm
RG Stz West

I will look at atgs next.

RealGradv1[1].1submodforStalingradv1.2.zip

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#4: Author: Dima,

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 6:28 am
—
Hi Vlad.

Quote:

Soldiers.adb list numbering there are 2 #66 the 2nd #66 should be #67!!!

hmm, was mentioned before. Thought i've fixed it tho it doesn't affect teams somehow.

Quote:

Gewehr41(w)ZF41 reduced kill raiting from 15 to 6,

that was done on purpose due to limitations of the CC.

Quote:

MG37(t) changed the 250rd belt to a 100 round belt

well it was done on purpose.
As u mentioned 100rnd belts could be linked together so basically it can fire constantly but in real life it needed to chnge barrel. So 250rnds till the crew chnges barrel is pretty ok imo.
But maybe 300rnds will be better...

Quote:

Geb Ladung 1kg & 3kg, switched weapons weights
changed 1kg from 10lbs to 3lbs,decreased kill rating for 1kg
changed 3kg from 4lbs to 9lbs

thnx for spotting.

Quote:

Made German and Russian Flamethrowers equal,Ranges,kill raiting,time to fire.

that's ahistorical as they were completely diferent.

Quote:

5battles added

neat!

Keep on good work.

#5: Some reasons for my changes Author: Real_Vlad,

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 2:07 am
—
Some more notes/references on changes in update RG 1.1
To respond to the ahistorical part about the flamethrowers.With the data u
gave
the russians,is there flame fuel mixed with the additives?And the germans
arent?
I put the data in as there both on the same fuel,which would of been
whatever
they could get there hands on.
But here are some very ahistorical aspects about the data in the weapons
fields,
i have looked so far

SMG comparisons in the Stalingradv1.2 mod
The time to fire a burst,imo is to long in most weapons, seem there real
rates
have not been taken into account when compared to each others.
The kill rate is set without taking real kill power physics into account.
Ie: If one compares PPSh with the 9mm German SMG its kill power
(penetration) set like this, ranges is set same, (except in long where the
PPSh has longer range):

Weapon..........PB......Close...Medium..Long
PPSh............7.......7.......5.......3
MP40/34 etc.....5.......4.......4.......1

Worth notice here is the inconsistency of weapons killing rating here in
Stalingradv1.2 mod:
Point Blank range the PPSh is set 40% higher kill power, I agree,basically
spot on.
Close range the PPSh is set 75% higher kill power… dont agree nearly doubles
it advantage in this range.
Medium range the PPSh is set 25% higher kill power, I agree,close enough.
Long Range the PPSh is set 200% higher kill power, dont agree.
Here if you had a mp40 stay away from PPSh in close and long ranges,engage
in medium range preferably.
In fact the PPSh is about 35-38% (depending on ammunition) more powerful in
kill power then a 9mm SMG type MP34 etc.

Some Rifle comparisons with Stalingradv1.2 mod
The values explained here is taken from the Stalingrad weapon.adb file.
Please use Qclone to verify the values I talk of below:
Mauser Weapon Index No 3.
SVT-40 Weapon Index No 100.
Vintovka obr.91/30 Weapon Index No 8.
First one may look at the time to reload the weapon and there by the time to
fire, (together with time to fire column of cause).
One thing that’s a real factor in the time between two aimer shots is the
recoil.
To understand this force and how it is different in different weapons and
why and so, is crucial to get a “reality” into a game as CC.
The SVT is set as faster then the G41 in Stalingrad, and that’s not right.
The SVT and that family of weapons are high recoil weapons. The SVT was
fitted with a Mussle brake to reduce the huge recoil and that helped. But
not even the best brake in the world can’t reduce the recoil to the level as
the G41 has that’s just not physically possible. And more things…

Rifle kill power is the next area of errors in Stalingrad mod, I match the
Mauser K98k to the Vintovka obr.91/30 (Mosin) and fined these values in
range (meters):

Weapon..........PB.....Close....Medium..Long
Mauser K98k.....40......100.....200.....400
SVT-40..........40......100.....200.....400

Then I look at the kill power:

Weapon..........PB.....Close....Medium..Long
Mauser K98k.....6.......6.......4.......2
SVT-40..........9.......8.......7.......6

SVT-40/Mauser comparison.
Point Blank range the SVT-40 is set 50% higher kill power compared to
Mauser!40% advantage
Close range the SVT-40 is set 33% higher kill power.20% advantage
Medium range the SVT-40 is set 75% higher kill power.60% advantage
Long range the SVT-40 is set 200% higher kill power.between 200m and
400m,you would be insane
to try and get into a rifle shoot out with your Russian counterpart if u
were carrying a Mauser.
Best time for a Mauser in this data,is somewhere in Between PB and Close
range (not much and always at
a minimum 33% disadvantage anyhow).
The thing here is in real life the SVT-40 has 11% more kill power then a
Mauser K98k, again the Russian weapons is set way to deadly.

This is how the Germans K98k is matched against the Russian Vintovka
obr.91/30
Ranges in meter:
Weapon..............PB......Close......Medium...Long
Mauser K98k.........40......100........200......400
Vintovka obr.91/30..40......100........300......600

Then one look at the kill power:
Weapon...................PB.....Close..Medium...Long
Mauser K98k..............6......6......4........2
Vintovka obr.91/30.......9......8......3........2
PB range 91/30 is set 50% higher kill power.
Close range 33% highter
Med range 33% lower than 98k?
Long range Equal but 200m longer range

This setting in Stalingrad is strange, because the kill power of the weapons
are basically the same in real life. Vintovka obr.91/30 compared to Mauser
is about -4 to +8% in kill power, to be exact.. (Depending on source).
And even in accuracy the Russian rifle have better value..

In the MG department, it’s the same story,I have no time to explain what I
have changed and why.
In the latest update majority of work centred on the weapons file,small arms
& explosives.

Will concentrate on ATGs next.
As I was playing a game,where i had sighted an ATG 25 metres away.
He was facing 90degrees wrong way,
so i ran a 7man squad 20 metres from 1 building to another building,
the atg had turned and fired its first shot before i was half way less than
10 metres,
he then proceded to kill 5 of the 7 men.This was while i had a 3 man SMGs
team trying to
surpress the ATG from a 2 story vantage point 40metres away. I will look at
bigger guns shortly.
hope these references i used are insightful and self explaining as to why i
modified the data.
Real Vlad!

#6: Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 9:08 am
—

Quote:

With the data u gave the russians,is there flame fuel mixed with the additives?

both use tough fuel.

Quote:

PPSh............7.......7.......5.......3
MP40/34 etc.....5.......4.......4.......1

yeah looks like mistake. At least i don't remember what i meant by that.
Prolly should be something like that:
PPSh 6...6...5...3
MP40 7...5...4...2

Quote:

The SVT is set as faster then the G41 in Stalingrad, and that’s not right. The SVT and that family of weapons are high recoil weapons.

SVT-40 had less recoil than G.41(w). According to US reports SVT-40 had pretty same or even less recoil than M1 Garand.

Quote:

Weapon..........PB.....Close....Medium..Long
Mauser K98k.....6.......6.......4.......2
SVT-40..........9.......8.......7.......6

yes it's wrong here. Forgot to chnge in 1.2 patch:(.
Should be 8...7...6...5 for german rifles (same for MGs).

Quote:

And even in accuracy the Russian rifle have better value..

prolly for ethalon version with bayonette attached.

Quote:

In the MG department, it’s the same story,I have no time to explain what I have changed and why.

MGs r correct as far as iam awared.

Vlad r u same guy that made 'Vlad Total War' for RTW?

#7: Re: Some reasons for my changes Author: AT_kampf,

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 12:52 pm
—

Real_Vlad wrote:

Some more notes/references on changes in update RG 1.1
To respond to the ahistorical part about the flamethrowers.With the data u
gave
the russians,is there flame fuel mixed with the additives?And the germans
arent?
I put the data in as there both on the same fuel,which would of been
whatever
they could get there hands on.
But here are some very ahistorical aspects about the data in the weapons
fields,
i have looked so far

SMG comparisons in the Stalingradv1.2 mod
The time to fire a burst,imo is to long in most weapons, seem there real
rates
have not been taken into account when compared to each others.
The kill rate is set without taking real kill power physics into account.
Ie: If one compares PPSh with the 9mm German SMG its kill power
(penetration) set like this, ranges is set same, (except in long where the
PPSh has longer range):

Weapon..........PB......Close...Medium..Long
PPSh............7.......7.......5.......3
MP40/34 etc.....5.......4.......4.......1

Worth notice here is the inconsistency of weapons killing rating here in
Stalingradv1.2 mod:
Point Blank range the PPSh is set 40% higher kill power, I agree,basically
spot on.
Close range the PPSh is set 75% higher kill power… dont agree nearly doubles
it advantage in this range.
Medium range the PPSh is set 25% higher kill power, I agree,close enough.
Long Range the PPSh is set 200% higher kill power, dont agree.
Here if you had a mp40 stay away from PPSh in close and long ranges,engage
in medium range preferably.
In fact the PPSh is about 35-38% (depending on ammunition) more powerful in
kill power then a 9mm SMG type MP34 etc.

Some Rifle comparisons with Stalingradv1.2 mod
The values explained here is taken from the Stalingrad weapon.adb file.
Please use Qclone to verify the values I talk of below:
Mauser Weapon Index No 3.
SVT-40 Weapon Index No 100.
Vintovka obr.91/30 Weapon Index No 8.
First one may look at the time to reload the weapon and there by the time to
fire, (together with time to fire column of cause).
One thing that’s a real factor in the time between two aimer shots is the
recoil.
To understand this force and how it is different in different weapons and
why and so, is crucial to get a “reality” into a game as CC.
The SVT is set as faster then the G41 in Stalingrad, and that’s not right.
The SVT and that family of weapons are high recoil weapons. The SVT was
fitted with a Mussle brake to reduce the huge recoil and that helped. But
not even the best brake in the world can’t reduce the recoil to the level as
the G41 has that’s just not physically possible. And more things…

Rifle kill power is the next area of errors in Stalingrad mod, I match the
Mauser K98k to the Vintovka obr.91/30 (Mosin) and fined these values in
range (meters):

Weapon..........PB.....Close....Medium..Long
Mauser K98k.....40......100.....200.....400
SVT-40..........40......100.....200.....400

Then I look at the kill power:

Weapon..........PB.....Close....Medium..Long
Mauser K98k.....6.......6.......4.......2
SVT-40..........9.......8.......7.......6

SVT-40/Mauser comparison.
Point Blank range the SVT-40 is set 50% higher kill power compared to
Mauser!40% advantage
Close range the SVT-40 is set 33% higher kill power.20% advantage
Medium range the SVT-40 is set 75% higher kill power.60% advantage
Long range the SVT-40 is set 200% higher kill power.between 200m and
400m,you would be insane
to try and get into a rifle shoot out with your Russian counterpart if u
were carrying a Mauser.
Best time for a Mauser in this data,is somewhere in Between PB and Close
range (not much and always at
a minimum 33% disadvantage anyhow).
The thing here is in real life the SVT-40 has 11% more kill power then a
Mauser K98k, again the Russian weapons is set way to deadly.

This is how the Germans K98k is matched against the Russian Vintovka
obr.91/30
Ranges in meter:
Weapon..............PB......Close......Medium...Long
Mauser K98k.........40......100........200......400
Vintovka obr.91/30..40......100........300......600

Then one look at the kill power:
Weapon...................PB.....Close..Medium...Long
Mauser K98k..............6......6......4........2
Vintovka obr.91/30.......9......8......3........2
PB range 91/30 is set 50% higher kill power.
Close range 33% highter
Med range 33% lower than 98k?
Long range Equal but 200m longer range

This setting in Stalingrad is strange, because the kill power of the weapons
are basically the same in real life. Vintovka obr.91/30 compared to Mauser
is about -4 to +8% in kill power, to be exact.. (Depending on source).
And even in accuracy the Russian rifle have better value..

In the MG department, it’s the same story,I have no time to explain what I
have changed and why.
In the latest update majority of work centred on the weapons file,small arms
& explosives.

Will concentrate on ATGs next.
As I was playing a game,where i had sighted an ATG 25 metres away.
He was facing 90degrees wrong way,
so i ran a 7man squad 20 metres from 1 building to another building,
the atg had turned and fired its first shot before i was half way less than
10 metres,
he then proceded to kill 5 of the 7 men.This was while i had a 3 man SMGs
team trying to
surpress the ATG from a 2 story vantage point 40metres away. I will look at
bigger guns shortly.
hope these references i used are insightful and self explaining as to why i
modified the data.
Real Vlad!

just download your mod vlad ,,i very much like the game play well done keep up the good work

#8: Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 11:57 pm
—
Thank you so much Vlad, please continue to fix the gross errors in Stalingrad data. I have long suspected negligence on the part of Dima because of his bias, nationality, and historical ‘knowledge’. You've pretty much confirmed my suspicions.

I think it only takes a few minutes in a history chat with Dima to know he has an objectivity level unknown to man. His interpretation of history is so sadly misled, he pretends to be a stickler on history yet seems to make incomparable errors in his data.

From the moment I've known his 'knowledge' in WW2 History, I wish he never had got a hold of Stalingrad data. Furthermore, I hope he does not get a hold of any more mod data and corrupt it.

Stick with Utah Dima, you have done a decent job with that. But god only knows what kind of errors you ‘glanced' over in the data department.

Vlad, continue looking into the data of Stalingrad, I think while looking into the ATG’s (especially German ATG’s) you will find more surprising ‘mistakes’.

Troger

#9: Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:31 pm
—
Troger,

I think your comments are pretty strong. There are errors in the data for ALL mods and the orginal CC games. The problem comes down to just the huge of amount of work involved in adding/editing the data and the source(s) the mod maker uses. If you want to point out problems in order to fix data that is great but throwing stones doesn't help.

#10: Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:40 pm
—
Maybe so Tejzsd, but I don't see other mod makers running around pretending to know everything. Then turn around and make major errors in their own data.

It's funny because when a mod maker releases a mod Dima is the first one to critique all the little errors. Then he has his own set of data and somehow gives one side a significant advantage in weapon category’s. What are the odds? 400%?

Let's call it what it is. A sad interpretation of WW2 History and a little embellishment.

He'll be the first one to remind a mod maker that their ammo counts are one off but makes gross mistakes in his data.

Last edited by Troger on Tue May 23, 2006 5:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

#11: Author: Buck_Compton, Location: Netherlands

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:05 am
—

Troger wrote:

Maybe so Tejzsd, but I don't see other mod makers running around pretending to know everything. Then turn around and make major errors in their own data.

It's funny because when a mod maker releases a mod Dima is the first one to critique all the little errors. Then he has his own set of data and somehow gives the Russians a significant advantage in weapon category’s. Look at the data, Vlad provided everything and Dima admitted his ‘errors’. 400% advantage’s come on Tejzsd, don’t be that naive.

Let's call it what it is. A sad interpretation of WW2 History and a little embellishment.

He'll be the first one to remind a mod maker that their ammo counts are one off but makes gross mistakes, which always favour one side.

What are the odds? 400%?

Hey Troger,

I'm a little bit shocked by your way of talking about Dima.... as you know Dima and I are/have been working togheter on several mods. (Stalingrad, Scheldt, Omg) I have to disagree with you. Your throwing an awful lot of bad things about Dima on the forum. It's, as Tjeszd says, impossible for anyone to make 100% correct data. About the nagging he does on other people's data. To you it looks like being a wise ass. To others its just a way of looking at history and translating it to the data sets and advicing modders Wink

. Because if what you are telling about the 400% favour for the Soviet troops in his data is correct. You'd better get some decent proof for such odds in stead of just throwing it around on the forums Wink

His data sets just have another view on how things are/could be Wink

there is nothing wrong with it. And the fact that Vlad is helping dima out is a good thing because also Dima makes error thats human Wink

Have you ever tried to make good working data sets? You'll be sick of numbers after a few hours Wink

So be glad someone else is trying to do the job.

You are never to old to learn and try eh? Wink

Cheers Buck

#12: Author: Troger, Location: L4W's place, Australia

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:54 am
—
400% was sarcasm.

My point is simple, you can't go around critiquing everyone about everything in their data yet make such enormous mistakes in your data. Aliby just doesn't hold up.

#13: Author: Gewehr,

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 8:52 pm
—

Quote:

My point is simple, you can't go around critiquing everyone about everything in their data .

can you prove that dima 'goes around critiquing everyone about everything in their data'?

Quote:

yet make such enormous mistakes in your data

what 'enormous' mistakes are there in his data?

#14: Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:17 pm
—
Dima has shown a cooperative and open minded attitude here: first he invites the submod maker to share his points of view on the Stalingrad data and then he takes time to seriously consider the points of critique and where he finds necessary admits to having made mistakes. We can only praise him for this attitude.
Yet Troger lights a fire by using words and phrases such as "I have long suspected" , "bias" , "pretence" etcetera clearly suggesting that the mistakes were deliberately created to give the Soviet side an unfair advantage. However, Troger's knowledge on the subject of weapons characteristics and how to translate them into playable CC data appears to be little because if he had been well informed on the subject he would probably have nailed these 'data errors' on the churchdoors himself.
A modmaker has to make decisions based on his own judgement. It's impossible to account for all these decisions in a seperate readme file.

#15: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:01 pm
—
Troger called a spade a spade!
or live by the sword die by the sword.
seems like u magnified his sarcastic point.
he like Dima often has,expressed his opinion.
i tend to agree with him.

#16: Author: AT_kampf,

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:28 pm
—
Peter and Gewere i cant but help feeling like i know you mmmmm

#17: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:34 pm
—
lol @ peter & gewehr. first time posters lmao

thank you u helped me win my bet Smile

#18: Author: poli, Location: The Netherlands

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:09 am
—
Now now Gents. Lets all take a deep breath and consider the time it took for stalingrad to be completed- and the fact that the team fell apart towards the end, and that for a moment- it looked like no stalingrad mod AT ALL!
I believe we owe Dima some thanks for that.
As for mistake's, well He admits em, and thats good enough for me. As for Bias, let me ask you this, do you know anyone that DOESNT have a bit of bias in favour of the home team? It will get fixed, in fact, Im happy that Stalingrad is getting attention again, maybe the three of you can work on a 1.3 patxh?

#19: Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:37 pm
—
Anzac, you may not have won that bet yet Wink

. Not that I am pretending to know what you bet but erm, should you want to get me a little better check my posts at the CSO forum where I am registered under the same nick.
I registered on this website in 2004, only to be able to access the download section. Have been looking for an excuse to post my first message, though.
Perhaps Buck would vouch for me but since he and Dima are working closely that would be another reason for some people to have 'suspicions' Smile

Now, in order to avoid new cases of mistaken identity I kindly suggest every 'newbie' post a message introducing himself to the forum grognards Smile

#20: Author: Gewehr,

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:30 pm
—
I've been playing CC online since the release of CC3,my nick was Irakliy.Btw I haven't seen that anyone was complaining about russian weapons were too good in Stalingrad.

Close Combat Series -> CC5 Stalingrad

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