Some armour values to debate
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#1: Some armour values to debate Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:07 am
    —
Hey all been looking at armour values recently
here is some tanks open for discussion
i searched there armour values are all from 1 website.
im sure there a few variations of thickness of amour,angle and quality.
but in the end ill most likely take a combination of info
and try to interpret it.
the equal part of their sums is where i have used the panzerworld
armour slope calculator
i need people to dispute the figures and why!


kingtiger
Hull Front (Upper) : 150mm @ 40°=233
Hull Front (Lower) : 100mm @ 40°=155
Hull Sides (Upper) : 80mm @ 65°=88
Hull Sides (Lower) : 80mm @ 90°=80
Hull Rear : 80mm @ 60°=92
Hull Top : 40mm @ 0°=40
Hull Bottom : 25mm @ 0°=25
Turret Front : 180mm @ 81°=182
Turret Mantlet : 100mm @ Saukopf
Turret Sides : 80mm @ 69°=85
Turret Rear : 80mm @ 69°=85
Turret Top : 25mm @ 0° =25

Tiger
Hull Front (Upper) : 100mm @ 80°=101
Hull Front (Lower) : 100mm @ 66°=109
Hull Sides (Upper) : 80mm @ 90°=80
Hull Sides (Lower) : 60mm @ 90°=60
Hull Rear : 80mm @ 82°=81
Hull Top : 25mm @ 0°=25
Hull Bottom : 25mm @ 0°=25
Turret Front : 100mm @ 82°=101
Turret Mantlet :100mm - 120mm @ 90°=110
Turret Sides : 80mm @ 90°=80
Turret Rear : 80mm @ 90°=80
Turret Top : 25mm @ 0° =25

panther vg
Hull Front (Upper) : 80mm @ 35°=139
Hull Front (Lower) : 60mm @ 35°=104
Hull Sides (Upper) : 50mm @ 50°=65
Hull Sides (Lower) : 40mm @ 90°=40
Hull Rear : 40mm @ 60°=46
Hull Top : 16mm @ 0°=16
Hull Bottom : 16mm @ 0°=16
Turret Front : 110mm @ 80°=112
Turret Mantlet : 100mm @ Round
Turret Sides : 45mm @ 65°=50
Turret Rear : 45mm @ 65°=50
Turret Top : 16mm @ 0°=16

panther vd
Hull Front (Upper) : 80mm @ 35°=139
Hull Front (Lower) : 60mm @ 35°=104
Hull Sides (Upper) : 40mm @ 50°=52
Hull Sides (Lower) : 40mm @ 90°=40
Hull Rear : 40mm @ 60°=46
Hull Top : 16mm @ 0°=16
Hull Bottom : 16mm @ 0°=16
Turret Front : 100mm @ 80°=101
Turret Mantlet : 100mm @ Round
Turret Sides : 45mm @ 65°=50
Turret Rear : 45mm @ 65°=50
Turret Top : 16mm @ 0° =16

Thanks
added panther VA as well
panther va
Hull Front (Upper) : 80mm @ 35°=139
Hull Front (Lower) : 60mm @ 35°=104
Hull Sides (Upper) : 40mm @ 50°=52
Hull Sides (Lower) : 40mm @ 90°=40
Hull Rear : 40mm @ 60°=46
Hull Top : 16mm @ 0°=16
Hull Bottom : 16mm @ 0°=16
Turret Front : 110mm @ 80°=112
Turret Mantlet : 100mm @ Round
Turret Sides : 45mm @ 65°=50
Turret Rear : 45mm @ 65°=50
Turret Top : 16mm @ 0°=16

Some instant differences that standout
VA & VG Turret Front : 110mm @ 80°=112
but VD has Turret Front : 100mm @ 80°=101
most likely a misprint,as makes no sense to lessen armour for 1 model.
Apart from that VA,VD looks identical.
With major difference being in VG model being the improvement in
Hull Sides (Upper) : 50mm @ 50°=65
im open to being incorrect about that also.

Last edited by ANZAC_Lord4war on Tue May 30, 2006 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
#2:  Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:34 am
    —
In late 1942, a small pre-production series of 20 tanks was ordered. This was the Null-Serie, or Zero Series. Those 20 tanks were designated Panzerkampfwagen V Panther Ausfuehrung A and were technically different from later Ausf A production models. All were lightly armored (with 60mm frontal armor) and armed with the early version of the 75mm KwK 42 L/70 gun.

Could this be the VA they are referring to?
#3: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:40 pm
    —
yes good possibility that data posted may have been mixed up.
and VD is really VA,and vice versa.
do u know how many VAs were made after the first run.
i think best use value that most had largest/consistent Smile production run
and im guessing the runs after had the 100mm for rest of va run
and then they upgraded that in the vd to 110
which stayed on thru to vg with vg receiving improved hull sides.
that defintely sounds more logical.
#4: Ye Author: AT_Stalky,  PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:47 pm
    —
This page is rather Good:

http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/introduction.html
http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/germany.html

Etc:
http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/germany.html#Face_Hardened_Armour

http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/german_turret7.html

Here u have quality of Germans armoure plates for each year:
1942
http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/german_hardness_veh.html
1943
http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/german_hardness_veh.html
1944
http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/german_hardness_veh.html

(All the page is good, but its somthing "wrong" when one click on links that whi i set many links to same homepage)

Here is some more in general,
http://www.battlefield.ru/

Here some documents etc:
http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=13&Itemid=123&lang=en

Fire test vs KT
http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=282&Itemid=123&lang=en

Maybe some help...

Stalk
#5: mmmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 1:18 pm
    —
gee wiz all them links...lol
i was wanting to have the debate sometime this week. Razz
#6: Sry Lord Author: AT_Stalky,  PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 1:23 pm
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Its just two main pages really, the reson there so many links, is that first place is somewhat strange its links, so one can sometimes not come to the pages one whant to, atleast its so for me.

So it looks far more then it is.


Keep answer Lord. plz. The links i provided is not compleat, just cover some small details in subject, keep posting plz,


Stalky
#7:  Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 11:38 pm
    —
You can see below the administrative efficiency the Germans are renowned for.


1. Late 1942 pre-production Ausf A (technically different to later Ausf. A)

2. In December 1942, a new and improved model, designated Ausf D, was ready. In February 1943, 20 Ausf A tanks were re-designated Ausf D1.

3. In December 1942, Ausf D entered production, and the first D model left the factory on January 11, 1943.

4. August 1943 Ausf. A in Production

5. March 1944 Ausf. G in Production

Total production 6,0209

A. 20 Ausf A

B. 250 Ausf. D1

C. 600 Ausf. D2

D. 2,200 Ausf. A

E. 2,950 Ausf G
#8: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 1:43 am
    —
any chance u can bracket them to the names i was using.
as that ausf naming is confusing.
i.e to VA,VD and VG and applying them to the largest runs of that model
as im trying to get a consistent setting across the models.
#9:  Author: Silencer,  PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:13 pm
    —
Panzer V Ausf A= panther Ausf A (V=5)

like

Panzer VI and VIb = Tiger & Kingtiger


There were about 3 main variations in Panther types, 5 smaller variations.

the First 20 or Null serie (prototype - only had 60mm glacis plate)
then the PZ V ausf D
then the PZ V ausf A
then the PZ V ausf G
then the PZ V ausf G - late (from september '44 and most produced type)
#10: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:48 pm
    —
yer thats great.
see problem is i have no intention to do first run of 20
im doing 3 models VA,VD and VG.
i know they were variants
some with higher quality armour ect
but im looking for the largest run to represent a model
instead of making 3 to 4 makes of 1 tank with a slight variation in it

and the name is not so important as the armour plating is.
which is mine fault as i prefer to use simplistic english terms for my team names.
but i have no problem databasing any info on them particular models.
but name alone is not enuff to start a database.

some stuffs corrected and collected already
schrecken=In late 1942, a small pre-production series of 20 tanks was ordered. This was the Null-Serie, or Zero Series. Those 20 tanks were designated Panzerkampfwagen V Panther Ausfuehrung A and were technically different from later Ausf A production models. All were lightly armored (with 60mm frontal armor) and armed with the early version of the 75mm KwK 42 L/70 gun.

(Guess we wouldnt be shocked if this series of 20 was destroyed faster than any other 20 panthers with only 60mm armour.)

Stalky=This page is rather Good:

http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/introduction.html
http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/germany.html
http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/germany.html#Face_Hardened_Armour
http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/german_turret7.html
Here u have quality of Germans armoure plates for each year:
1942
http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/german_hardness_veh.html
1943
http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/german_hardness_veh.html
1944
http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/german_hardness_veh.html

(All the page is good, but its somthing "wrong" when one click on links that whi i set many links to same homepage)

Here is some more in general,
http://www.battlefield.ru/

Here some documents etc:
http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=13&Itemid=123〈=en

Fire test vs KT
http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=282&Itemid=123〈=en

(a series of valuable links)

schrecken=You can see below the administrative efficiency the Germans are renowned for.

1. Late 1942 pre-production Ausf A (technically different to later Ausf. A)

2. In December 1942, a new and improved model, designated Ausf D, was ready. In February 1943, 20 Ausf A tanks were re-designated Ausf D1.

3. In December 1942, Ausf D entered production, and the first D model left the factory on January 11, 1943.

4. August 1943 Ausf. A in Production

5. March 1944 Ausf. G in Production

Total production 6,0209

A. 20 Ausf A

B. 250 Ausf. D1

C. 600 Ausf. D2

D. 2,200 Ausf. A

E. 2,950 Ausf G

(Some valuable numbers on production and the models.)

SIlencer=Panzer V Ausf A= panther Ausf A (V=5)

like

Panzer VI and VIb = Tiger & Kingtiger

There were about 3 main variations in Panther types, 5 smaller variations.

the First 20 or Null serie (prototype - only had 60mm glacis plate)
then the PZ V ausf D
then the PZ V ausf A
then the PZ V ausf G
then the PZ V ausf G - late (from september '44 and most produced type)

(Further naming descriptions with highlight on Panzer V is Panther Ausf A (V=5))
#11:  Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:43 am
    —
Ausf. A was the model seen most in Normandy


WHat/where is your scenario being set?
#12:  Author: Silencer,  PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:56 am
    —
the most produced version was the pantherG late.
Besides other improvements (like heating & option to add IR equipment) a visual feature was the improved mantlet. (to avoid the shot trap)
#13: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:41 am
    —
its not a cc scenario
its a start of a cc armour database
things like heaters wether it had a radio fitted not important
nor the name really.
im looking for 3 base panthers VA,VD and VG
i no problem with databasing the minority production runs
but no use only supplying name
without armour data.
but also at same time i invite debate about collected figures.
look at my first post
if u were to look at 1 panther by itself
u would not notice the mistake
no prizes given for getting anything right.
wont think less of u if u get something wrong.
open debate about armour values i just threw the panther up there first
coz is popular tank.
#14:  Author: kwp,  PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:42 pm
    —
My recommendation would be to find a copy of "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two" by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, ISBN 1-85409-518-8.

It covers the differences in armor between the various models of just about every German armored vehicle. It also lists the dates of production, even gives range of chassis numbers for each model's production run, ammo carried, etc...
#15: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:47 pm
    —
i wouldnt know how to ask for one.if u have and have time to scan pages,plz do so.
so starting to look like we have a lack of armour hobbiests in the community.
or people r just happy to go with 1 source data.
or worried previous datas may be shown up?
#16:  Author: kwp,  PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:45 am
    —
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=1854095188&itm=1

I don't know if they ship overseas. You might want to ask at a public library if they have a copy you could check out. That is where I located a copy to inspect prior to making a purchase.
#17:  Author: Silencer,  PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:01 pm
    —
One of the best books about panther is:

Militärfahrzeuge, Bd.9, Der Panzerkampfwagen Panther und seine Abarten
von Walter J. Spielberger

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3879435278/qid=1149425857/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl/302-4160589-8146415

The author was a former jagdpanther commander.
-->Only requirement is that you can read German.
It has by far the most original blueprints and specs of all panther variants. I own this book, and it even today, I discover new things!
#18: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:00 pm
    —
thanks for the replies and info all.
but due to lack of debate and figures submitted.
ive cancelled the plan to go ahead with a database that all can use.
#19:  Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:31 am
    —
Lord4war

i think a data base like you have in mind would be welcomed in the community.

You need to do the research first then publish it.

Keep it as a work in progress as the data will constantly be challenged , ridiculed and debated over.... and unltimately referenced and used in andy future mods of CC and other WWII based games.

the challenge is great... seize the day!
#20: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:41 am
    —
yer i agree it has potential
id already made a database on 1 source
was hoping others would submit theirs
i was prepared to go thru the results
post the different results
post an average of the results
but im ok with my database for me
but the part me going out buying books doing all the research
id rather make a mod instead.
id still might do it,if some1 submit their sources,we would need 3 sources minimum.
just wont be buying books as a cross referance.
and personally id like to see some submissions by other modders
as they have a huge part in cc5
and at same time not discounting any1 who is not a modder
coz they can read as well as the rest of us.
#21:  Author: kwp,  PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:41 am
    —
If you are looking for armor values that you can use in CC I can put together a spreadsheet for you of the vehicles I have included in my CC5 Operation Mars mod. The vehicles.adb file actually covers the entire time frame for the Russian front as I was planning on using the mod as a base for possible future mods. It took quite a bit of money for the books, plus time and effort to collect the data. I then had to calculate the CC armor values using an armor calculator spreadsheet that setup.

Or we could keep it simple and I can send you the vehicles.adb file and calculator spreadsheet but it will have to wait until June 10 when I return from vacation.
#22: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:06 am
    —
@ KWP i think every1 would like to see that.
would well cut time a lot.
but instead of discussing ur cc data now.it may be suited to a later topic.
but we r trying to establish base models armour thickness and angle(not CC).
as they vary from sources.
ur sources would be very valuable,and also the type calculator u use
and the results they produce.
#23: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:48 pm
    —
here is a q clone ini to help cc modders
for a long time and since reg cc5 was released
we have had to live with stugs,halftracks and so on having turret values.
this included modders making up values which never existed.
to make the vehicle work.
the cc5 ini here is the one senior drill posted in cso a few months ago.
i correctly identified and named col 119 in the vehicles file.
if any1 gets stuck on turning their old tanks with turret values
into hull only structures,let me know.

CC5QCloneL4.zip
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  CC5QCloneL4.zip
 Filesize:  9.42 KB
 Downloaded:  289 Time(s)
#24:  Author: kwp,  PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:16 pm
    —
Here's a list of my reference material. Don't ask me to scan these as I don't want to damage the bindings nor do I have the time to scan all the material they contain. I have listed them for anyone that may be interested in searching for them, whether it be at a public library or at a bookstore.

"Soviet Tanks and Combat Vehicles of World War Two"...Steven J. Zaloga and James Grandsen
"Russian Tanks of World War II"...Tim Bean and Will Fowler
"Russian Tanks 1900-1970"...John Milsom
"The T-34 Russian Battle Tank"...Dr. Matthew Hughes and Dr. Chris Mann
"Tanks of the World 1915-45"...Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis
"Infantry Weapons of WWII"...Ian V. Hogg
"Military Small Arms of the 20th Century" (7th edition)...Ian V. Hogg and John S. Weeks
"Armoured Firepower"...Peter Gudgin
"Allied Artillery of World War Two"...Ian V. Hogg
"The American Arsenal" published by Greenhill Books, Lionel Leventhal Limited
"Infantry, Mountain and Airborne Guns" (WW2 Fact files)...Peter Chamberlain and Terry Gander
"Anti-Tank Weapons" (WW2 Fact Files)...Peter Chamberlain and Terry Gander
"Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two"...Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle
"German Tanks of World War II"...F.M. von Senger und Etterlin
"German Artillery of World War Two"...Ian V. Hogg

And two versions of the calculator are attached (ArmorCalcCC.zip does the same as Armor_Calc plus it also calculates the CC armor values)

ArmorCalcCC.zip
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  ArmorCalcCC.zip
 Filesize:  5.59 KB
 Downloaded:  300 Time(s)
Armor_Calc.zip
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Armor_Calc.zip
 Filesize:  9.06 KB
 Downloaded:  298 Time(s)
#25:  Author: kwp,  PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:08 am
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Here is a list of some of the online sources I used:

http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/introduction.html
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/
http://www.onwar.com/
http://www.battlefield.ru/
Close Combat Series -> The Mess


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