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#1: SDK Vetmods: the imposture Author: pzjager, Location: Paris

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:31 am
—
Hi to all;

After having choosen first the French forum to do this announcement, time has gone now to let you know the current situation on the SDK general forum . It is painful for me. But I have to do it.

Here is the situation is some facts:

1.I have released SDK on November 19th (so, approximately no more than 2 weeks ago) and the corresponding vetmods one week later or so. I have to say that the mod has immediately been a success and I would like to thank you all for your kind support and all the messages you have sent me so far, either on the forums or by PM or Emails. This is the best recognition I could get after having hardly worked more than 2 years on the mod.

2.The game as it is maybe perfectible (which game isn’t?), and this is the reason why I have uploaded some days ago the 1.1 version (together with the corresponding vetmods) on CCS. This version is still not available for downloading on CCS, and I have to say that I don’t know why. Administrators are silent, don't answer to my messages. It is not, in my opinion, the best way to communicate. But is not the current problem. Let’s go back to our sheeps, like we say in French.

3.Yesterday, December 5th, has appeared on the SDK FORUM (I precise: on the SDK forum, even not on the general forum) a post coming from a so-called “Salhexe” who has permitted himself, WITHOUT HAVING AT LEAST CONTACTED ME BEFORE, to propose for downloading a so-called “SDK VEtmods2” file, adding as a comment that it was an improvement upon the original, official SDK files. Mister Salhexe seems thus to be a much better modder than myself (why not, especially if you look at the numerous mods that this guy has published so far…!) but, more than that, knows SDK better than myself who worked more than two years on my mod. This is totally unpolite, let’s even don’t say it is ridiculous.

4.I don’t want here to enter into a too much technical discussion (a large part of you are not familiar to CC moding), but I would like at least to summarize what Mister Salhexe has done with the SDK mod. In summary, Mister Salhexe has just, in 10 minutes or so, adapted without any selectivity some –if all….for him- of the very well-known tips which TT invented some years ago and are widely published on all technical forums of all the CC sites. For example, coding all the infantry units as vehicles and all the MG’s as guns…This, I have to recognize, renders the AI very aggressive. BUT, and I am sorry to be here somewhat politically incorrect, the TT’s tips, when applied without restriction or cleverness, make the AI totally stupid and the whole game totally uninteresting. One of the nice things in CC was just to have a nice panel of different units, acting differently on the battlefield and with different attributes (light infantry, heavy infantry, assault teams, recon, etc…). If CC is now just a game where all the enemy units just rush stupidly and suicidary on your units and the flags, with static MG’s (yes, the MG’s of Mr Salexe are static!!) fighting from everywhere without any pause, then OK: I say STOP to CC and I will play Warcraft. At least the graphics are better than in CC. Ah! What a wonderful game you have made, Mister Salhexe!!!!
5.I want also to point out at this stage that the H2H game as it was released is already a quite tough game (let’s even don’t say anything about the 1.0 OFFICIAL vetmod): just go to the different forums and you will see the comments of those who played to it... There was absolutely no reason to make these stupids, UNOFFICIAL “submods” (just don’t even say anything about these stupid as well arty attacks which are totally crazy and just make of MY game the biggest trash I have never seen….Where is Close Combat in that? CLOSE? COMBAT? Where?
6.I have asked yesterday to the CCS and CSO administrators (because Mister Salexe has also defecated on CSO) to remove these downloads and at least, in the case of CCS, to remove them from the SDK forum. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SDK. IT IS AN INSULT TO SDK. In addition, do I have to point out that I am the Moderator of this SDK forum? I believe I have the right to ask to CCS to remove THAT from the forum.
7.Even worse (yes: it is possible!). Mister Salhexe did not only recode my units stupidly. He also has cut the number of units per BG. This is, first, a VIOLATION of the game in its deep heart. This is, also a big risk to render the mod totally unplayable online, with people playing the right, official version, and some others the hacked version. For this reason at least, I officially ask to the somewhat 25 people who downloaded this shit to send it directly to the dustbin.
8.The only SDK game is the official SDK from Panzerjäger.
9.I have sent a message to Mister Salhexe yesterday evening, without any answer from him (I don’t wait for an answer, I have to say..)
10.This affair, which is for me an offense to my work and honor, is really susceptible to affect VERY DEEPLY the relations I could have with the CC websites in the future. It has to be resolved immediately. It is not because we, the moders, work for FREE just by passion, just to give pleasure to players, that anybody can do anything without any sense of respect and courtesy (I would even say that it is the opposite).
11.I had, in secret, taken back my work on my other mod Contre-Attaque sur l’Aisne for some days. I expected to launch it early 2007. It is now on hold. Let’s even don’t say anything about the last mod I was planning to do, for which my stratmap was even already done: Stalingrad,Operation Ring, the thirs and last page of the trilogy.
12.This is ruined. I am disgusted.

AND I REGRET THIS SITUATION.

In case it is my last post on this site, I just would like to say Merci to all of you who have been so kind in supporting SDK. Have fun with the mod.
Cheers
Panzerjäger

#2: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:20 am
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Hey PzJager,
just finished d/l ur maps the other day.
squeezed a few games in,plays great.
this is without any updates u have since released.

yer CC modding can be unrewarding sometimes Smile

sometimes the CCS admin dudes r busy to.
but overall their pretty speedy.
can i recommend against uploading fixes to the forums.
unless some1 is adding it their for u to see.
but when u update a file,some players will update it and some wont.
and after a few days after they forget they have different files.
also vetmod makers wouldnt be able to add ur fixes before u.
unles they actually done them.

yer i kinda thought Salhexe was cashing in on ur mod.
but eventually some1 will.
look at it as Salhexe wanting to improve his name,at the popularity of u mod.
which is really a compliment.
i havent tried any of his vet mods,so i no idea about them.

i totally agree with you,on the issue regarding being a moderator.
makes u not want to bother.
CCS have previously said it has something to do with a users history posting.
like we give a fuck about their chat history.
u want to moderate ur forum.
nothing else matters.
bottom line is they can enable u to delete posts
but have it turned off.
listening CCS? Smile

and last but not least i think ur slightly overreacting.
go into the street and let out a big YAHOO!
and all will be better.

#3: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:35 am
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PzJager, I'm really sad to hear this...I even used a tried using an online translator to try and understand what you posted in French a few hours ago (ruining some of the translations of course).

Please try to resolve this with Salhexe...and I'm hoping you'd feel better soon.
From what I know, Salhexe makes a lot of his vetmods...but mostly on older mods (most of the hardcore CC players have finished playing those mods anyway)...I was a bit surprised that he posted vetmods for SDK (which is a brand new mod that you're still perfecting, and your vetmods were also available)...that's why I asked in the forum what's the difference between Salhexe's vetmod dan your vetmods...remember?

As for CCS admins being quiet, I think the guys are just busy with something else right now.

PJ, It would be a real shame if this issue makes you decide to quit CC Modding and throw away those future mods you mentioned Sad

.

BTW, I wanted to post a bug report about SDK later...I hope you're in a good enough mood to respond to my post.

#4: Re: mmm Author: pzjager, Location: Paris

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:38 am
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ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:

Hey PzJager,
just finished d/l ur maps the other day.
squeezed a few games in,plays great.
this is without any updates u have since released.

yer CC modding can be unrewarding sometimes Smile

and last but not least i think ur slightly overreacting.
go into the street and let out a big YAHOO!
and all will be better.

Hi,

I feel you understand my position, at least...
Anyway, some comments:

1) I am not overreacting. My game has been raped.
2) SDK does need any popularity coming from hackers.
3) I agree with you that we should prohibit the downloadings in the posts.
4) If people crash their game, they will crash SDK, and I will be taken as the responsible.
5) I don't se ANY problem if people make modifications to mods as far as it remains PRIVATE, in their PC...
6) ...Or, at least, I believe the least you can do is to be polite enough to contact the modder before.
7) The most important: these mods ARE NOT SDK. If someone wants to make a mod using SDK, why not? But using a different name!
Cool

I am totally crazy to see what this guy has made to my game! It is a violation.

Thanks to your comments, and don't forget to download the official vetmods if you want to play with them. Please don't give popularity to thgis hacker.

Cheers
PJ

#5: Author: pzjager, Location: Paris

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:41 am
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squadleader_id wrote:

BTW, I wanted to post a bug report about SDK later...I hope you're in a good enough mood to respond to my post.

Hi,

Do it when it is still time. I am not sure to stay more than 1 week in this community. That's the deadpoint I gave to myself if nothing happens.

Cheers
PJ

#6: Author: ronson, Location: England

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:08 am
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Hello CCS Members

Quote:

In case it is my last post on this site

Why should this be the case? Its NOT you thats in the wrong is it?

You're not the one that has acted with disregard for the work of others.

After seeing your post I would expect to see from Mr Salhexe, who I imagine is a Gentleman, an apology for offending you in such a way.

It is one thing to 'modify' an older mod where the creator is no longer around and is unavailable, quite another to start changing things in a new mod where the creator is very active, except for your private use.

Surely it is only good manners to seek from somebody whos work you are ammending permission if not an endorsement, before you publish.

I'm totally alongside Pzjager with this issue.

Cheers
Ronson

#7: Author: pvt_Grunt, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:13 am
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Sorry to hear you're soooo steamed up. I dont feel that it's such a big issue (raped is a VERY strong word..) , but then I didnt spend 2 years working on SDK, it's your mod and you have the right to be protective.

Yes, Salhexe should have asked permission to mod the files, and give them a different name to stop confusion. There's no legal copyright, but there is common courtesy......

Give Mooxe time to answer your post, he's probably just busy.

Meanwhile, I'll keep playing my Wintergewitter campaign with your German Vet plugin. I'm loving the maps, but not the Russian heavy AA guns Crying or Very sad

Grunt

#8: Author: pzjager, Location: Paris

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:28 am
—

pvt_Grunt wrote:

raped is a VERY strong word

It is FAR BELOW what I feel.

Cheers, and thanks for your support.

PJ

P.S.: If you play Wintergewitter, just wait for the 1.1 version, where starting positions have been fixed. It was really a concern. I have to apologise.
You can start ANY campaign or OP you want: they are totally compatible with the 1.1 version (The original SDK label is also a security!), so you won't have to restart.

#9: Yes Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:32 pm
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About be a moderator in a forum that is about ONES OWN WORK (Pz Jaegers SDK), I think its appropriate that the moderator HAVE the ability to delete posts and threads .

I have so said before. .

In this case, Pzjaeger want to remove a "uninvited guest" or "through out" a guest he don’t want at his party for a reason or another.

Pzjaeger may not own CCS, but but been offerd to "lent" the apartment from CCS, then he ought to have the power to have a final say who’s a guest in his apartment. (even if the guest is nice, and well liked by others)

Stalky

PS: (this is my though in generall, not aimed at anyone whom may in fact be really welcome in other places, after been invited)

#10: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:37 pm
—

pzjager wrote:

squadleader_id wrote:

BTW, I wanted to post a bug report about SDK later...I hope you're in a good enough mood to respond to my post.

Hi,

Do it when it is still time. I am not sure to stay more than 1 week in this community. That's the deadpoint I gave to myself if nothing happens.

Cheers
PJ

BTW, I've posted my report...not sure if it's a bug report or an error on my part.

#11: Author: Vman,

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:12 pm
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This is a shame that someone would take someone else's work, make adjustments, and make it available to the public without asking the original author for his permission.

It's called plagiarism and it's illegal. I'm sorry you have to go through this Pzjager. By the way, I really love your mod. Good work.

#12: Author: Searry, Location: Finland

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:26 pm
—
Well i think that it is your mod, and only you should have the power to edit it. Salhexe should keep hes stupid vetmods on his computer. Did he even ask of anybody, before he started to do that shit.

#13: Author: salhexe,

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:30 pm
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It was not my intention to create all this "casino", I pray the administrator of the site to remove or to cancel my attached one Embarassed

#14: Author: TheTomDude,

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:42 pm
—
Hmm I can understand that you're angry atm. Asking for permission for something like this should be normal for everyone. I might be wrong but I think most if not all people on this forum are adults and should know how to behave. However I'm sure Salhexe did not want to take an advantage of your mod or insult you with his changes.

People know it's your mod and all are thankful for the work you put in it. Some write posts to say thx but most are only d/l and playing it. I'm sure those players are all thankful as well.

I would not take it so personally. It's not good for the blood pressure. Wink

However, I usually only play the "official" and approved mods and updates. I did not d/l Salhexes vetmods because I was already happy with yours. (never change a running system Laughing

)

As for the moderator rights I would agree to what AT_Stalky and others already said and I'm sure Mooxe will talk to you PJ as soon as he will have the time.

So keep cool dude. Smile

Tomdude

*edit: Oh I forgot to say that. Please guys whatever bothers you, let's stay decent and fair.

Last edited by TheTomDude on Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

#15: Author: pzjager, Location: Paris

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:48 pm
—

salhexe wrote:

It was not my intention to create all this "casino", I pray the administrator of the site to remove or to cancel my attached one Embarassed

Hi,

Could you be so kind as well to remove this from CSO

Cheers
PJ

#16: Author: mooxe,

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:06 pm
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The administrators on this board, mainly me, are not the answer to every dispute that takes place.

I do not like iron fist moderation. I say let flamewars burn themselves out, talking is good. I do not want peopleto be afraid to say anything here. Disputes should be resolved between the parties before any request is sent up to me. I only assumed people would do this, there are no clear guidelines set anywhere on this site. My apologies for that. Moderators do not have delete rights for a few reasons. Mainly, large numbers of posts in the past were deleted for administrative purposes when there was no clear rules violation in them. Secondly, within those posts there is always some relvant info that someone else may find useful, this generally is never taken into account when the main offending thread gets deleted. Instructions for deleting threads, once again, are not anywhere on this site, so once again my apologies.

The need to delete posts on CCS has been almost non existant. There have been less that 5 cases including this one. I will not enable moderators to have delete rights for all the above reasons. Delete requests can go through me. All efforts should be made to resolve this on your own. I am the last resort.

I realize how passionatley people feel for thier own work. I feel very passionate about CCS so I can relate to anyone here fully. Patience must still come into play when trying to resolve a dispute though.

Salhexe, please edit your post to reflect pzjagers request. From there, start again by 1st asking for permission advice on how to continue with your submod. I will edit the post in 48hrs if you have not.

For Stalky and L4W, this is the SDK forum, I know you guys have a hate on for me about mod delete rights, so if you want to go further into this subject lets use a more relevant forum such as "the Mess." I will leave that up to you to start.

#17: Author: pvt_Grunt, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:03 pm
—

salhexe wrote:

It was not my intention to create all this "casino", I pray the administrator of the site to remove or to cancel my attached one Embarassed

:ok2 :ok1

#18: Author: pzjager, Location: Paris

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:13 pm
—
Sorry, Mooxe, not to go 100% in your direction, but you are the main administrator of this site and I strongly believe that, related to this function, you, unfortunately, have sometimes to do the "policeman" about what happens on YOUR site. It's normal! I understand that is not always easy for you. I understand as well that you can be busy like everybody, including me. I have just to say that we are both of us on the same planet but that, because of our clearly character differencies (look at my avatar), I WILL NEVER accept the kind of things that happened on your site. If you accept the nail, you will have to accept to have your arm cut. It is NOT my general sense. I am 45 years old and did not always lived in the corrupted atmosphere we are all living in nowadays. Most importantly, I will never accept it. NEVER. NEVER.
Let's go back to the current issue. I have spent more than 2 years -free time, without any aim than CC passion- to offer to all OUR CC players a mod that could be a pleasure for them. I have always, since the official release of the game, been keen (at least, I hope!) in helping everybody who could encounter problems with SDK (fortunately, they were very few and AFAIK, I strongly believe that I resolved KINDLY their problems (see all the CCS forums since november 19th). I do not accept, AND WILL NEVER ACCEPT
that someone, in 15 minutes, using cheats taken from old, obsolete, CC forum websites, could not only ruin a 2 years work but, even worse, put a finger of me saying "phough...... I can do better easily.." On MY site!
Mooxe, we had together right by the beginning a good relationship and I want it to survive to this. I DID NOT make anything which could be understood as contrary to our common passion: Close Combat.

So, I, officially:

1) Thanks you a lot for your kind reply this evening.
2) Send a message to all CC fans to support you and your wonderful website to keep your hard work being successful. I will NEVER forget the kind welcome you did for my mods....ooouuuf sometimes 3 years ago from now!
3) ask you to delete the Salhexe SDK shits from EVERYWHERE on your website (not only from the SDK forum: ces crottes n'ont rien à faire avec SDK).
4) ask you: Please, please, please, make available for downloading of the v1.1 version. It is available now for a lot of days and I can tell you that it is a 10 minutes work at the same time you are having a dinner with your family (as a french, I just hope you spend more than this for your dinner: joke!!!). SDK fans are really waiting for it. PLEASE DO IT. I have from my side spent a long time for SDK, not only sometens of minutes, I can tell you.

With by best and respectuous regards
Panzerjäger

#19: Author: Bombardier, Location: England

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:23 pm
—

pzjager wrote:

4) ask you: Please, please, please, make available for downloading of the v1.1 version. It is available now for a lot of days and I can tell you that it is a 10 minutes work at the same time you are having a dinner with your family (as a french, I just hope you spend more than this for your dinner: joke!!!). SDK fans are really waiting for it. PLEASE DO IT. I have from my side spent a long time for SDK, not only sometens of minutes, I can tell you.

I second this, if only out of the purely selfish desire to play the thing! Very Happy

I raise my glass to you pzjager, not only for your wondrous creation SDK, which I hope to one day play once I've got my bloody computer sorted out, (like the Italian M11-39 tank, it's under-powered, under-armed and looks like it was designed by a small child with a broken crayon) but also because you've stuck by your guns.

One day I hope to meet you on that great battlefield in the ether, Gamespy.

Take care my French friend,

Bombardier Smile

#20: Author: poli, Location: The Netherlands

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:24 pm
—

pzjager wrote:

pvt_Grunt wrote:

raped is a VERY strong word

Hi Pzjager!,

I would agree with what was said above, its discourtious to just go and PUBLISH a own version without contacting the original modder first ESPECIALY when the mod in question is still'hot off the press".
I would also like to add that you shouldnt be concernd with support, you have my support and several others as well!

As for the mod, I am playing it now(no vetmods) against russian AI and am having a hell of a time! Great maps and the battles are nasty, not to mention the suprise of being overrun in the north west and finding my units out of supply!

Anyway, we got your back man so chill, its all good!

#21: Author: pzjager, Location: Paris

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:04 pm
—

poli wrote:

pzjager wrote:

pvt_Grunt wrote:

raped is a VERY strong word

Thank you.
As you say, the H2H version is already quite tough. Let's don't speak about the officials V1.0 and v1.1 Vetmods (V1.1 should be available tomorrow or so).
Have fun and don't hesitate to send me your comments. They are welcome.

Cheers
PJ

Hi Pzjager!,

I would agree with what was said above, its discourtious to just go and PUBLISH a own version without contacting the original modder first ESPECIALY when the mod in question is still'hot off the press".
I would also like to add that you shouldnt be concernd with support, you have my support and several others as well!

As for the mod, I am playing it now(no vetmods) against russian AI and am having a hell of a time! Great maps and the battles are nasty, not to mention the suprise of being overrun in the north west and finding my units out of supply!

Anyway, we got your back man so chill, its all good!

#22: Author: CavScout,

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:28 am
—
This discussion is senseless and really uncalled for.

For one, there have been several other cases of someone modding someone else's mod for the betterment of the game or just to make it more fun (BlackCats rank mods for example). And I have yet to see anyone blast them for it.

I understand you put years of hardwork into this mod, and to that we salute you. It is the modders that continue to keep this game and community alive. Let's just not be quick to cut down other modders (whether it is their own or someone else's) work as it adds to the viability and continuation of a great game.

@ Salhexe,

I see no harm or foul in what you did, as their were others who have done the same before you. However, asking for permission could have avoided some of the flak you are receiving.

Let this stuff rest, and get back into the game! Wink

#23: Author: Pzt_Kevin_dtn, Location: USA

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:56 pm
—
I agree that Salhexe was out of line for making the submod without consulting pzjager first. I don't think pzjager is overreacting; I think I would have felt the same way, especially when it occured practically on the eve of launching SDK. I would have been furious.

I can only assume that Salhexe was excited about the release of SDK and jumped prematurely at making a Vetmod for single player purposes. I don't think he meant any harm or disrespect.

As a player, I would rather have updates and submods released by the author or at least sanctioned by the author so that I know its been "tuned/refined" properly and won't screw up my PC or config mgr.

Again thanks to pzjager for his work on a fine game and to those who support it. Let's play.

regards
_dtn

#24: Author: Pzt_Coyote, Location: Zwolle, The Netherlands

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:54 pm
—
So PzJager did you ask permission to the creator of CC5, or did you just go ahead and messed with their files? Twisted Evil

AFAIK the original creator was allways very much against modding his games. Hence the files were allways a bitch to modify, but people allways got around it and made their own editors.... damn hackers ruining perfectly good games Laughing

(seriously, you know I'm gratefull to the modders)

I don't see the problem really with people editing other peoples work aslong they give credit to the right people. How does it hurt SDK when someone else creates VetMods for it ? If people like it they will download it and use it, if they like the vanilla SDK better, or your vetmods, they will play that ...

Just keep modding away, it's what keeps this game alive, and I agree to some extend that asking permission is nice, but not neccesary, giving credit is tho!

#25: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:00 am
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creator of CC left every1 high and dry with CC5
proof is the unofficial 5.01 patch
which still doesnt get all the bugs.
if it wasnt for the modders do u think Simtek,Matrix would be toying around with a re-release?

#26: Author: Pzt_Coyote, Location: Zwolle, The Netherlands

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:32 pm
—
I know, and if you had read my whole post, I actually said the modding is keeping this game alive and I'm very thankful to every modder out there, no matter how small the mod... but my point still stands, noone ever asked the creators permission either, so when you get angry cause someone is building on your mod, that's pretty damn hypocrite, cause your mod has been build on CC5 and the creator never liked modding in the first place and certainly noone ever asked permission to edit CC5 Laughing

I think aslong credit is given where needed, people should just go ahead and edit eachothers work and perfect it to something you would like better ...afterall isn't that what modding is about? Don't forget that the basecode never was your own to begin with ... The only one who can genuinely be pissed off is Eric Young. (alltho I wonder how he feels about modding now after seeing his game still being alive and kicking after all those years cause of all the modding)

And I'm not denying people like PzJager put alot of time and hard work in their mods, cause they certainly do, and they certainly deserve all the credit for that!

#27: Author: Antony_nz,

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:28 pm
—
I agree.
I have hated it when im trying to talk to someone then a lazy power freak moderator banns me or locks the thread

Close Combat Series -> CC5 Stalingrad Der Kessel

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