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Close Combat Series -> The Mess
#281: Re: What are you reading? Author: AT_Stalky,  PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:24 am
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I fined Otto to be rather humble, the commando raid to liberate Mussolini for example.

He gives much credit for its success and planning to a junior officer. He says that the men in the team was really good and they are a huge factor for the success. Otto say that the most important factor for this rescue was successful was pure luck, because it was planed so hasty and they misjudged the landing arias that easily may have turned the adventure into a failure. Otto further states in his memoirs that the German propaganda machine turned it into something it was not, and he strongly oppose the “staging” of the event with film cameras as just rubbish.  

So, about Yugoslavia and Mussolini what’s BS and bragging here?
#282: Re: What are you reading? Author: MajorFrank,  PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:07 pm
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About Skorzeny, I glanced through Foley's book about him that I have, he mentioned that Skorzeny wasn't a believer in the nazi ideology of, for example, that the Soviets were sub-humans. However, some time ago I saw this documentary about Skorzeny where a guy had talked to him after the war in Ireland and he remembered him calling the Soviets sub-humans.

So, who knows. Maybe some things are lost forever in the fog of history and war.
#283: Re: What are you reading? Author: kawasaky, Location: Zagreb, Hrvatska PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:11 pm
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AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
I fined Otto to be rather humble, the commando raid to liberate Mussolini for example.

He gives much credit for its success and planning to a junior officer. He says that the men in the team was really good and they are a huge factor for the success. Otto say that the most important factor for this rescue was successful was pure luck, because it was planed so hasty and they misjudged the landing arias that easily may have turned the adventure into a failure. Otto further states in his memoirs that the German propaganda machine turned it into something it was not, and he strongly oppose the “staging” of the event with film cameras as just rubbish.  

So, about Yugoslavia and Mussolini what’s BS and bragging here?

I've siad nothing about his role in Op. Eiche.

About Roesselsprung (AB attack on Vrhovni štab in Drvar) - if HIS plan was implemented and under HIS command they would've captured "Tito". It all went south because of petty feelings of "an army general in Banja Luka" (OK, I know who he should be talking about, but please - name, exact rank). "Tito" learned about the raid and escaped a few hours earlier.

Now, NOV i PO Jugoslavije wasn't some rag-tag band. In may 1944 (and earlier for all it matters) it was fully structured army. Drvar was the Main HQ base (and there were the Soviet, the British and the USA military missions also) and well guarded. If he tried something like Mussolini stunt, his small unit would've been wiped out. Roesselsprung was a set piece operation with some 25-30 thousand troops and ground element was included from the beginning (O.S. implies that the Germans HAD to engage ground units BECAUSE the paras were surrounded). Josip Broz and the better part of the Main HQ escaped under fire. What saved them was the German belief that "Tito" is in Drvar itself, while he and his closest associates were in "The Cave" nearby town. When W-SS figured that out, it was already too late. So, it was touch-and-go gor "Tito" and he was almost eliminated.

Second, he (O.S) says that the "partisans" stashed their waepons away during daytime and pretended to be civilians, and it's a damn lie in line with nazi policy of not paying regard to the Hague Convention. It is only a cover up that serves as an apology for the executions of captured NOVJ soldiers. In fact, they, the NOVJ, fulfilled all of the requirements needed to be treated as a belligerent side - as stated in Annex to the Convention REGULATIONS RESPECTING THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS OF WAR ON LAND, CHAPTER I, The Qualifications of Belligerents, Article 1.
#284: Re: What are you reading? Author: US_Brake, Location: USA PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:31 pm
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The Fighting First: The Untold Story of The Big Red One On D-Day
Flint Whitlock

The Big Red One
Samuel Fuller, Richard Schickel

The Last Kilometer: Marching to Victory in Europe With the Big Red One, 1944-1945
A. Preston Price

1st Infantry Division Big Red One
Ian Westwell
_________________________________

Desert Rats: The 7th Armoured Division in World War II
Major-General G L Verney Dso Mvo

Churchill's Desert Rats: From Normandy to Berlin With the 7th Armoured Division
Patrick Delaforce

Last edited by US_Brake on Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total
#285: Re: What are you reading? Author: AT_Stalky,  PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:17 am
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kawasaky wrote (View Post):
About Roesselsprung (AB attack on Vrhovni štab in Drvar) - if HIS plan was implemented and under HIS command they would've captured "Tito".

Otto dont say that in his memoir.

kawasaky wrote (View Post):
If he tried something like Mussolini stunt, his small unit would've been wiped out.  

1) This is purely speculations. It has nothing to do with Ottos memoirs as he dont say a word about details of his own plan to capture Tito. 2) If you allow you’re self to speculate, why can’t Otto speculate about what went wrong?

kawasaky wrote (View Post):
Roesselsprung was a set piece operation with some 25-30 thousand troops and ground element was included from the beginning  (O.S. implies that the Germans HAD to engage ground units BECAUSE the paras were surrounded).

Otto don’t say that, Otto say; “On the set date the army corps started the operation, an SS-Fj battalion who was attached to the corps jumps into the valley…. " --- Clearly saying that it’s a corps operation with an element of SS-Fj..   

Remember, Otto is in Germany in Friedenthal when this happens, and is not in Yugoslavia and he don’t take part in the operation nor did he do the plan.  He’s a pure observer from grate distance, he dont claim anything else.




kawasaky wrote (View Post):
Second, he (O.S) says that the "partisans" stashed their waepons away during daytime and pretended to be civilians, and it's a damn lie in line with nazi policy of not paying regard to the Hague Convention. It is only a cover up that serves as an apology for the executions of captured NOVJ soldiers. In fact, they, the NOVJ, fulfilled all of the requirements needed to be treated as a belligerent side - as stated in Annex to the Convention REGULATIONS RESPECTING THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS OF WAR ON LAND, CHAPTER I, The Qualifications of Belligerents, Article 1.

Hm, Otto retells what the corps commander down there tells him, and that’s how the Yugoslavian farmers are described to Otto. As he later see the farmers on the fields, he recollects what he been told, and think “where does that farmer hide his weapon.”  So he belives whats he been told..

Hm, as I said before I know lill about the fights down there.
I have Milovan Djilas memoirs though.  I suppose you know who that is, one of Titos men..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milovan_%C4%90ilas

The Djilas memoirs starts at 1943, and at page 9 and 10, Djilas say: “it common knowledge that it was the Yugoslavian communist party who organized the partisan and the rebel movement against the German and Italian occupying forces and there domestic collaborators. “  

Djilas further states at page 11 that: “during the forth offensive in 1943, there was negotiations between our (Yougoslavian) leaders  and the Germans leaders, the reason was to exchange prisoners, but the main issue for us was in reality to get the Germans to acknowledge the partisans as combatants thus in that way end the killing of prisoners and wounded on both sides.”

At page 29 Djilas say: ”the uprising in Yugoslavia would not have materialized if it wasnt for the intimate bounds between the rebellious farmers and the communist avant-garde.”  
etc etc etc

If one of Titos close men described the situation in Yugoslavia like this… compare that to how things was described to Otto..

kawasaky wrote (View Post):
Josip Broz and the better part of the Main HQ escaped under fire. What saved them was the German belief that "Tito" is in Drvar itself, while he and his closest associates were in "The Cave" nearby town. When W-SS figured that out, it was already too late. So, it was touch-and-go gor "Tito" and he was almost eliminated.

A question: I cant fined that text or story in Ottos memoirs, is that your own comment? (or what page?)

/Stalk
#286: Re: What are you reading? Author: MajorFrank,  PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:25 am
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Just finished The Last Stand of The Tin Can Sailors by James Hornfisher. A pretty good depiction of the Pacific war and specifically the Battle off Samar in 1944.

The Japanese navy comes across as inadequate and just inferior in every way. Makes me wonder how they even got that far.
#287: Re: What are you reading? Author: dgfred, Location: N.C., USA PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:44 pm
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I have that exact book... good reading IMO.
#288: Re: What are you reading? Author: mooxe,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:43 pm
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Finished What Its Like To Go To War by Karl Marlantes. Good first person accounts of the Vietnam war. Karl goes into the psyche of it as well, how he dealt with it and such. Makes me want to find some more Vietnam books.

Also finished reading Helmet For My Pillow by Robert Leckie. Great book. Great action, Robert Leckie is a good descriptive writer. I ended up watching The Pacific again while reading the book.
#289: Re: What are you reading? Author: AT_Stalky,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:13 pm
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Tiger in the mud by Otto Carius.

Tiger in the mud




or in Swedish_:


V interesting book. Gives a good picture of the Tiger action and its day to day front operations. Recommended.

Last edited by AT_Stalky on Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
#290: Re: What are you reading? Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:33 pm
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Smile
#291: Re: What are you reading? Author: MajorFrank,  PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:17 pm
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Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001.

Btw, where has this thread gone, wasn't this a sticky in The Mess before?

Edit. Nevermind, seems that it's there but I just couldn't see page 21 for some reason.
#292: Re: What are you reading? Author: mooxe,  PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:55 am
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this thread is working again....
#293: Re: What are you reading? Author: MajorFrank,  PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:23 am
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MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
Ordered two more books, "SOG - The Secret Wars of America's Commandoes In Vietnam" by John Plaster and "Recondo" by Larry Chambers. Started reading SOG, seems interesting although probably not very academically reliable.


Been reading SOG, about half-way in now.

Started thinking, if someone was to make another Vietnam war - based mod for CC, the MACV-SOG would make a good subject for one. They were usually inserted into jungle by a helo and had to carry out a mission that could be anything from observing the enemy to snatching prisoners etc. Then they were extracted with helos.

The missions often degenerated into these 'chases through the jungle' with a numerically superior North Vietnamese NVA troops chasing and trying to kill the small MACV-SOG teams. Not sure if that could be replicated in a CC mission but it sure was a pretty intense type of warfare. I had no idea how effective these guys were throughout the war, and especially during the first half of the war. They were able to tie down and kill an astonishing number of the enemy. Their unit also carried out these psych ops, some of which were very succesfull.
#294: Re: What are you reading? Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:18 pm
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Some new Russian book were published in English recently:

Rzhev battle - http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1908916516/ref=ox_sc_act_image_2?ie=UTF8&m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE
Vazma battle - http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1908916508/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE
 
Both have alot of details and are a must for all EF fans.
#295: Re: What are you reading? Author: thumb,  PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:52 am
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Panzer Gunner: From My Native Canada to the German Osfront and Back. In Action with 25th Panzer Regiment, 7th Panzer Division 1944-45

Free Kindle ebook @ Amazon. Free Kindle PC app also available.
#296: Re: What are you reading? Author: Antony_nz,  PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:27 am
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Clan of the cave bear.
Harry Turtle doves southern victory books. (Alternative WW1 and WW2 in America)
Metallica all that matters.
#297: Re: What are you reading? Author: MajorFrank,  PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:09 am
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Finished SOG, it was jam-packed with a lot of stories, most second hand but still (I think) from direct interviews with the participants and from reliable sources. I now know quite a bit more about the secret, clandestine side of the Vietnam war then I did previously. It was a grim war, fought to the bitter end. Made me think that maybe the war could have been pretty much avoided had the US not gotten involved at all, or much less then it did.

Now reading Recondo by Larry Chambers. An autobiographical book based on the writers experiences as a LRRP (long range patrol) - member in the Vietnam war. I'm a fan of these guerilla - type soldiers, they were the 'individualists' of war, at least to a certain extent.
#298: Re: What are you reading? Author: AT_Stalky,  PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:40 am
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Christa Schroeder’s ”I was Hitler’s Secretary”

The author was as the title gives away, Hitlers stenograph secretary from 1933 to 1945.
The book should not be confused with Zollers book, that used Schroeder’s debriefing/interrogation material from here 3 years in allied war criminal camps and made a book from that material.

There are many memoirs from the people close to Hitler, but IMO this is a really really good book that do not demonize Hitler but gives a rather balanced picture of his many sides. The author comes out strong against other memoirs and biography works that do not give a true picture about the life and the persons around Hitler.

The author has not only here own extensive material available, and here own memory, and all other memoirs. The author has also got in contact with the people around Hitler after the war to clear out what happened and what was said in situations that was unclear. In all, Schroeder has done a good job with this book. She did not participate in any interviews after the war, and wanted the book published after here death.  

Worth a read IMHO.
#299: Re: What are you reading? Author: MajorFrank,  PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:01 am
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Recently I finished a book called "The Operators: The Wild and Terrifying Inside Story of America's War in Afghanistan" by Michael Hastings. It was a quick read, it's based on the story in the Rolling Stone - magazine that led to the firing of Stanley McCrystal as the leader of the US troops in Afghanistan.

It's a good story, made you wonder how these big generals just kind of move around without bodyguards. If, say, a Taliban assassin would want to kill McCrystal, I see no reason why that wouldn't be possible. He and his entourage travelled in the economy class in airplanes, they eat in the most shoddiest and cheapest places they can find, etc.

Also it made me think about the war in Afghanistan, and how that war just goes on without anyone having to explain why it's still going on. Afghanistan is really a dirt poor developing nation where people have a really short life expectancy. Even when it's peace, which it basically hasn't been for the last forty years or so. Before that there was a period of relative calm and progress there.
#300: Re: What are you reading? Author: MajorFrank,  PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:41 pm
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Inferno - The World at War 1939 - 1945 by Max Hastings.

I just got this one, I haven't yet started reading it. I haven't previously read any of Hasting's books, he seems to be pretty highly regarded whereas people like Beevor get quite a bit of stick.

The book covers the entire war and I guess it's for people who already know a lot about the war. Hastings addresses many aspects of the war that have been either forgotten or misinterpreted by other historians or the general media. Lots of first hand accounts and solid historical research data.

I've been leafing through and eyeing some of the bits from this. A long book with quite a lot of substance. Probably a good addition to the war book collection.
Close Combat Series -> The Mess


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