Team composition questions for Utah v2
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Close Combat Series -> CC5 Utah
#1: Team composition questions for Utah v2 Author: Quilts,  PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:20 am
    —
Hi Dima,

As I flagged in my PM, I played CC5 H2H with a friend many years ago and have just become interested in doing so again.....thanks to the discovery of some of the great mods available.

One of the things that annoyed me the most about CC5 was team compositions and the limitations they placed upon you ie- you could only field a few half strength platoons before you ran out of team slots, let alone if you wanted a tank or two along for the ride.

So I was very excited to see 2 mortars in one team in your TRSM mod. And I wondered if it the same idea couldn't be implemented with a few other teams and their assets. For instance-

- US 60mm mortars from the rifle companies heavy platoon. They normally had 3 but could allocate them out individually if needed, so perhaps a companies heavy platoon mortars could be represented by one team of 2 mortars and one detached team of 1 mortar. So an on screen heavy platoon could be one HQ, one 2 mortar team, one 1 mortar team and two M1919 teams ie- 5 teams.....perfect!

- Platoon level AT weapons being included in HQ units, with company/battalion+ level assets represented individually. So a US rifle company platoon HQ would have the platoon bazooka in it's team (I know i'd want it close by Embarassed ), with the unallocated bazooka's from Company+ level being represented as individual teams.

So a text book US rifle platoon could be represented by one platoon HQ (with bazooka and unallocated platoon BAR), three BAR squads, and one rifle squad ie- 5 teams totalling as many as 35 men from a text book 40 or so.

You would still be left with the option of taking some more AT as individual teams allocated from Company+ level.

That's all for now. Many more to follow but answers and thoughts on these questions will more than likely effect, or negate, other suggestions.

Cheers,

Quilts
#2:  Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:30 am
    —
Hi

Quote:
- US 60mm mortars from the rifle companies heavy platoon. They normally had 3 but could allocate them out individually if needed, so perhaps a companies heavy platoon mortars could be represented by one team of 2 mortars and one detached team of 1 mortar.

will do something with it, can assure that at least 2 60mm mortars will be in team.

Quote:
So an on screen heavy platoon could be one HQ, one 2 mortar team, one 1 mortar team and two M1919 teams ie- 5 teams.....perfect!

don;t forget that each BG has FP of only 20 units. If i make 1 team with 2 mortars and 1 team with 1 mortar that will take 2 valuable slots...

Quote:
Platoon level AT weapons being included in HQ units, with company/battalion+ level assets represented individually.....with the unallocated bazooka's from Company+ level being represented as individual teams.

same as above + i personally don't want US infantry teams to have integrated zooka, so doubt it.

Quote:
So a text book US rifle platoon could be represented by one platoon HQ (with bazooka and unallocated platoon BAR), three BAR squads, and one rifle squad ie- 5 teams totalling as many as 35 men from a text book 40 or so.

it will be pretty different in v2 in comparison to v1.3. U'll have to take teams in battle carefully to balance weakness and advantages of US infantry.

Quote:
That's all for now. Many more to follow but answers and thoughts on these questions will more than likely effect, or negate, other suggestions.

waiting forward Smile.
#3:  Author: Quilts,  PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:09 am
    —
Dima wrote:
Hi

Quote:
- US 60mm mortars from the rifle companies heavy platoon. They normally had 3 but could allocate them out individually if needed, so perhaps a companies heavy platoon mortars could be represented by one team of 2 mortars and one detached team of 1 mortar.

will do something with it, can assure that at least 2 60mm mortars will be in team.

Quote:
So an on screen heavy platoon could be one HQ, one 2 mortar team, one 1 mortar team and two M1919 teams ie- 5 teams.....perfect!

don;t forget that each BG has FP of only 20 units. If i make 1 team with 2 mortars and 1 team with 1 mortar that will take 2 valuable slots...

Quote:
Platoon level AT weapons being included in HQ units, with company/battalion+ level assets represented individually.....with the unallocated bazooka's from Company+ level being represented as individual teams.

same as above + i personally don't want US infantry teams to have integrated zooka, so doubt it.

Quote:
So a text book US rifle platoon could be represented by one platoon HQ (with bazooka and unallocated platoon BAR), three BAR squads, and one rifle squad ie- 5 teams totalling as many as 35 men from a text book 40 or so.

it will be pretty different in v2 in comparison to v1.3. U'll have to take teams in battle carefully to balance weakness and advantages of US infantry.

Quote:
That's all for now. Many more to follow but answers and thoughts on these questions will more than likely effect, or negate, other suggestions.

waiting forward Smile.

Dima,

FP of 20 units! Isn't there only 15 unit allowed? Or has something been modded to allow more now?

It seems that saving unit slots is as much a concern for yourself as it 'was' to me. That's why I suggested integrating Platoon level AT weapons into the Command team. Seems to me that there's still plenty of Company and higher level Bazooka's to go around as individual teams if you feel their needed.

I think there were 5 Bazooka's in every rifle company, which is alot of slots if you want a heavy AT defence ie- 5 units out of 15.....or 20.

The thought about the individual mortar was to represent when the Heavy Platoon was not actually present on the battlefield but individual weapons (mortars/LMG's/HMG's) had been allocated out to platoons within the company. I belive this occured regularly, particularly in defence.

Going back to the Bazooka's.....my orogonal thoughts sprang from Armoured Rifle platoons which had a Bazooka with every team in the platoon. What this meant is that to field a 'text book' AR Platoon you would need to take a Command team, 2 rifle teams, 2 LMG teams, a 60mm Mortar team, 5 AT teams and 5 1/2 tracks. This is already 16 teams of your 15.....or 20. By integrating the Bazookas (and the LMG's in this case) you could field a 'mounted' (1/2 tracks present on battlefield) platoon with 10 teams and an 'unmounted' platoon with 5 teams. Overall a big saving in team usage.

Anyways, out of here for 7 weeks. Look forward to hearing about progress when I get back.

Cheers,

Quilts
#4:  Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:55 am
    —
hi

Quote:
FP of 20 units! Isn't there only 15 unit allowed? Or has something been modded to allow more now?

FP is the roster of units yer BG has (left of the screen when u r in BG screen).

Quote:
It seems that saving unit slots is as much a concern for yourself as it 'was' to me. That's why I suggested integrating Platoon level AT weapons into the Command team. Seems to me that there's still plenty of Company and higher level Bazooka's to go around as individual teams if you feel their needed.

i believe that u will like to have separate zooka teams especially when someone place smoke to block LOS of yer command team. Broken LOS in CC = zooka/Schreck can't hit at all.
Anyway i want command teams to be weak, like real command team, their main task is to provide connection with other units (morale in CC).

Quote:
I think there were 5 Bazooka's in every rifle company, which is alot of slots if you want a heavy AT defence ie- 5 units out of 15.....or 20.

looks like they had around 26 zookas per Bat.

Quote:
The thought about the individual mortar was to represent when the Heavy Platoon was not actually present on the battlefield but individual weapons (mortars/LMG's/HMG's) had been allocated out to platoons within the company. I belive this occured regularly, particularly in defence

for now i don't want to go for 2 dif mortar teams - every slot is valuable.

Quote:
Going back to the Bazooka's.....my orogonal thoughts sprang from Armoured Rifle platoons which had a Bazooka with every team in the platoon.

correct.
well in TRSM there is PLD that had unique Type 44 organization with each Gruppe(Squad) had 1 RPzB. I made 2 dif RPzB trupp's one representing Gruppe integrated RPzB and another representing RPzB from PzZerstorer Gruppe.
Still is waiting for responce from players. If it works ok, it can be used in Utah as well for AI.

Quote:
What this meant is that to field a 'text book' AR Platoon you would need to take a Command team, 2 rifle teams, 2 LMG teams, a 60mm Mortar team, 5 AT teams and 5 1/2 tracks.

sry dunno what u mean by 'text book'.
that;s correct for AI Platoon composition but in CC we can't really have more than 7men teams. So 12men AI Squad(well same for any US squad) will be devided in at least 2 parts.

Quote:
This is already 16 teams of your 15.....or 20.

u can only take 15 units in battle.

Quote:
By integrating the Bazookas (and the LMG's in this case) you could field a 'mounted' (1/2 tracks present on battlefield) platoon with 10 teams and an 'unmounted' platoon with 5 teams. Overall a big saving in team usage.

we'll c

Quote:
Anyways, out of here for 7 weeks. Look forward to hearing about progress when I get back

c u then.
#5:  Author: Quilts,  PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:51 am
    —
Hey Dima,

Back from OS. Seems to have been pretty quiet around here?

Anyways, to continue our discussion, I now know that when you said there was a FP limit of 20 units you meant that every BG could only have.....well 20 'unit options' available to it. So the 15 'on-screen' unit limit still applies. Sorry for the confusion.

Are there any other limitations on a BG that I should be aware of before making impossible suggestions?

But just to carry on where we left off- Armoured Rifles. We agreed that pretty much every half-track was allocated a Bazooka, so 5 for a rilfle platoon, and about 21 for a company.....give or take a few. That's alot of Bazooka teams to a battalion if they are deployed individually! Hopefully the TRSM tests will come back positive so making them part of the 'squad' will be possible.

And regarding the 12 man per squad you mentioned, there are some guys left in the half-track (I think in 1.3 they had a crew of 4?) so they should reasonably be missing from the infantry compliment of a squad, so 7 men is pretty good. 8 would of course be perfect but I remember reading a post of yours about not increasing squads above 7 because the game 'doesn't like them'?

In the same vain, is it possible within the game limitations, for an AT gun to have a bazooka as part of it's crew weapons? It seems that most US AT guns teams were also supplied with a bazooka (odd?).

And, what would be the effect of having 2 'crewed weapons' in the same squad? ie 2 LMG's/HMG's in one squad?

But back to 12 man squads, I think that squads being short a few guys (1-3 men) is reasonable to allow for the auto-resupply that occurs between battles. If every squad is deployed full strength then there is nowhere for these replacements to have come from, except re-supply companies (where available) of course. In the military there's always guys missing from squads for one reason or another.

So a US rifle platoon could be-
1 Command team, and
4 BAR teams (apparently every company had 6 extra BAR's to be allocated as the Company commander desired).
That's 29-35 men depending on the size of the command team, which is not too far short of a paper strength platoon I think.

Sorry for the newbie questions but I just have no idea as to the limitations of the CC game and modding.

Further, I have no real knowledge of military organsation in WW2 and am relying on http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/ for my information.

Cheers,

Quilts
Close Combat Series -> CC5 Utah


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